RIP Kentaro Miura

[Naofumi]

Where did you watch the film because it's out of the cinemas ?

Amazon Prime.

And Paul actually believes in himself as the Mahdi, or at least someone to precede the Mahdi, and believes in the mysticism of the Fremen. The Kwisatz Haderach is actually a lengthy genetic program of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood to create a superhuman and Paul arrives before the time the sisterhood expects. I must point to the dreams that Paul has. These dreams are prescience, he can look into the future and this is enhanced when he ingests or breathes Spice. I haven't watched the film but if the second part of the film comes out in 2023 as is said, it will cover the remainder of the first book in the series and you will see Paul's mother, Jessica, becoming the Reverend Mother of the Fremen after ingesting the Water of Life. The Fremen's previous Reverend Mother was a Fremen and she dies of age during the ceremony that Jessica becomes. Paul and Jessica become part of the religion of the Fremen. When I started reading the books many years ago I didn't feel Eurocentrism in them. The writer, Frank Herbert, included non-Christian and non-Western narratives. And you should look at how simple, sophisticated and empathetic the language of the books is. Please read the first book and then decide.

As I told, I already know the finer details of the story. Lol, I have that much attention to details. The problem with Dune is not that it does not have "non-Christian and non-Western narratives" but that it have them in a very twisted and outdated way - like an 17th century white orientalist would have. Fremen are shown as superstitious, incapable of having finer technology and overall a weaker people in their social organisation itself. Not only that, Fremen are shown as weird savages who have inhuman customs like murdering each other in duel like while Paul is an honourable white prince who gives Jamis chances to surrender but Jamis being the coloured savage he is, is hellbent on murder or say when Stilgar comes to Leto, he spits on the table - that is how Fremen supposedly greet each other. As much I understand, in no human culture spitting in a stranger's direction is considered a greeting then why this disgusting thing is shown as a part of Fremen culture if not to create a ground that shows Fremen as savages? All the ceremonial stuff feels like mysterious magical stuff of savages as some orientalist would have seen the East in 16th-19th centuries. Terms like Mahdi/Lisan Al Ghaib/Sayyidna and God knows what, are thrown around without very little context what they mean in real Muslim/Arabian historiography.

On the dream and prescience, this was the most immersion breaking part. There is no "science stuff" in this. That's simply impossible according to our current physical understanding - this dictates a physical determinism akin to Laplace's demon (closest thing I can think of in real science), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_demon#Arguments_against_Laplace's_demon . Also, 'spice' thing is so stupid to be put in a sci-fi movie - first of all there is no way that space travel can be made easier by some drug, it is a magical fantasy not sci-fi. Also, Why don't the humans have figured out the chemical structure of spice and began producing it artificially? Given the overwhelming importance of spice, this should be the very first step of the human civilisation. We have interstellar travel in the plot but not enough chemists to deconstruct a single compound.

Regarding "Kwisatz Haderach is actually a lengthy genetic program of the Bene Gesserit" - this is again magical stuff. There is literally ZERO scientific stuff. If this sounds good to you then sorry you know very little real biology. This is just magical stuff again and bullshit at that too. Still, let us assume that this is possible in an alternate universe then why the **** Bene Gesserit don't fund genetic engineering and get their goal accomplished in seconds in a lab (of course after the research is complete)?! Why is every science is so outdated in Dune universe?!

Overall as a sci-fi work, it is pretty outdated and stupid containing very meagre science. I would rather recommend Solaris by Stanisław Lem, Cosmos by Carl Sagan or even Arthur C. Clarke's works.

Please read the first book and then decide.

No, I tried to immerse in the plot but it just throws me away. Sorry, can not waste my time on it.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Berserk is far superior to the Dune bullshit. This is not even a comparison.


Berserk is one of the best example of hard world building, it's lore is comparable only to very few works in fiction. It is just a very unique genre or maybe one of its kind. Masterpiece.

Beserk is heavily influenced by hell raiser series btw atleast the current God hand members are

 

[F-6 enthusiast]

 

[Naofumi]

Beserk is heavily influenced by hell raiser series btw atleast the current God hand members are

Of course, there are lot of obvious western influences in its lore both fictional ("Hellraisers", "The Name of the Rose" and even Grimms' Fairy Tales or from an artistic point of view, Escher) and historical (medieval Europe/dark ages) but Berserk's themes goes beyond them. From Wiki

Berserk explores a wide range of themes and topics. Free will, destiny, and causality are discussed within the series.[68][69][70] Human resilience is a recurring theme, with many characters coming from traumatic backgrounds, constantly struggling against an unjust world.[70][71] Guts struggles with destiny itself and is constantly resisting the pull of predetermination.[68] Griffith also embodies this idea of resilience, by chasing his dream of ruling his own kingdom, despite his lowborn origins, as well as free will, by his own decision to sacrifice the Band of the Hawk in order to achieve his dream.[70]

The series also explores human nature and morality, as characters struggle between becoming good human beings or falling into madness and evil.[72][71] Guts, at the beginning of the story, is presented as an antihero who does not care about killing and is indifferent to people who aid him. Guts does not act in accordance with definitions of right and wrong, he operates within a gray area, and does not attempt to be heroic or protect the innocent.[73][74] However, as the story progresses, it is shown that he is in fact a person who is deeply conflicted internally.[75][76] His tragic and traumatic past, unfolded in the Golden Age arc, proves that Guts is a much more complex character.[77][73][71] Anne Lauenroth of Anime News Network wrote that Griffith is "not evil at all," but "arrogant and brutally realistic about human nature." The suppression of his own human nature would initiate his demise as the Hawk and the rise of Femto.[70]

Friendship, comradery and human relations are other explored themes.[68][16] As a child, Guts tried to build some level of friendship with his mercenary group,[78] but due to his traumatic experience with them, he lost trust in people.[79][80][81] However, through the time he was with Griffith and the rest of the Band of the Hawk, Guts formed bonds, friendships, animosities and co-dependencies, maturing as well as individual.[71][70][82][69] Miura stated that he based the Band of the Hawk on his own high school friend relationship experience.[16][83] Specifically, he mentioned that his friendship with later fellow manga artist Kōji Mori partially inspired the relationship between Guts and Griffith.[7] Jacob Chapman of Anime News Network, wrote that through their friendship, Guts' ambitions were elevated and Griffith's were lowered, allowing both of them to consider a new future for the first time, one where they fight side by side as equals and die on the battlefield, but they reject this future out of their own personal fears, as Guts did not think he was "good enough" for a happy future and Griffith was terrified of his lofty dream crumbling into something more mundane.[84] Miura also said that the story of fight between Guts and Griffith speaks about their change after having built their personalities.[16]

The Golden Age arc has been compared to a Greek tragedy.[85][86] According to Lauenroth, Griffith's hamartia lies in how he compartmentalizes his feelings of guilt and shame that would get in the way of his dream and how he deals to repress them. His inner dialogue in his second duel with Guts, "If I can't have him, I don't care," marks the Golden Age arc peripeteia.[70] When Guts comes running to rescue him during the Eclipse, Griffith reaches his moment of anagnorisis with his thought: "You're the only one... who made me forget my dream."[70]

Betrayal and revenge are major themes in the series. Guts suffered his first betrayal when Gambino sold Guts' body to another soldier for a few coins. He would eventually take revenge against the soldier, killing him on the battlefield and he later would kill Gambino as well.[71][79] Guts is in a quest for revenge after his comrades were betrayed by Griffith and sacrificed by the God Hand.[71] This desire for vengeance has been his main reason of survival.[87][74]

Religion has been also touched in the series, mainly through the characters of Mozgus and Farnese. Miura stated that he created Mozgus based on the concept of rigid personality to create a religious fanatic character with no flexibility.[83] Farnese is presented as the figurehead of the Holy Iron Chain Knights, inquisitors tasked with burning heretics and witches at the stake.[88] After her encounter with Guts, she finds it increasingly difficult to resolve her faith with the atrocities she became party to, as Guts, inversely, takes action against something he disagrees with. Guts denounces the very idea of prayer, claiming that the act of clasping hands only prevents people from fighting for their lives. Farnese eventually begins to reject her faith and the rigidity of her beliefs after finding out the truth about Mozgus. After the battle between Guts and Mozgus, Farnese decides to follow Guts, to find a new purpose in her life, away from her social position and the church.[89]

Take for example, human resilience in the face of impossibility, while this is not unique in any way but Berserk explores it in the most depth. The impossibility here is not because of some powerful villain (while that is a part of it) but due to the very nature of this universe (destiny/causality). The idea of causality dictates that all of the the world's events were set when the world was first created - thus any resistance is futile or even self-deceiving - fatalistic. But still human nature still want to fight and go against all odds despite rarely succeeding (or never succeeding) and while that may sound meaningless, the Berserk presents it as the only meaning that one can have in life...
Just my two cents.

 

[jamahir]

As I told, I already know the finer details of the story. Lol, I have that much attention to details.

or say when Stilgar comes to Leto, he spits on the table - that is how Fremen supposedly greet each other. As much I understand, in no human culture spitting in a stranger's direction is considered a greeting then why this disgusting thing is shown as a part of Fremen culture if not to create a ground that shows Fremen as savages?

This is a human culture of a people called Zensunni Wanderers who after wandering around space for long settled on a mostly desert world where it had not rained for a long long time, where there were no open rivers and seas and where after settling there even a teardrop would elicit awe because water is so precious that emotions could not include tears because that would be water wasted and where when out in the desert the body's water would be kept on the body using the stillsuit ( technology by the Fremen ) and where when a person died his or her body's water ( lot of the human body is water ) would be recovered in a Still. That is great respect to water among the Fremen of Arrakis aka Dune so the Fremen extend their respect for water when giving loyalty by taking oath on the water content of their body which for convenience is spit. Spitting for the Fremen is giving loyalty and high respect. So as against your belief you don't know the finer details of the story.

The problem with Dune is not that it does not have "non-Christian and non-Western narratives" but that it have them in a very twisted and outdated way - like an 17th century white orientalist would have. Fremen are shown as superstitious, incapable of having finer technology and overall a weaker people in their social organisation itself. Not only that, Fremen are shown as weird savages who have inhuman customs like murdering each other in duel like while Paul is an honourable white prince who gives Jamis chances to surrender but Jamis being the coloured savage he is, is hellbent on murder

Paul is honorable because he is Paul and because of his parents who believe in fair play. Not because he is a White prince. When you will watch Dune 2023 film you may perhaps see the Baron's White nephew Feyd-Rautha who will use a foul means to trying to kill Paul after Paul becomes the ruler of Dune. And then in the beginning of the story the White Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam is ready to kill Paul should he try to escape her test.

And you know when you mentioned Jamis I was reminded of you - impetuous, impatient and lecturing your seniors.

But Frank Herbert might have been influenced by the film Lawrence of Arabia, the element of a European man going to an exotic place to guide them to rebel against the monarchy.

On the dream and prescience, this was the most immersion breaking part. There is no "science stuff" in this. That's simply impossible according to our current physical understanding - this dictates a physical determinism akin to Laplace's demon (closest thing I can think of in real science), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_demon#Arguments_against_Laplace's_demon .

I will write about this later.

Also, 'spice' thing is so stupid to be put in a sci-fi movie - first of all there is no way that space travel can be made easier by some drug, it is a magical fantasy not sci-fi. Also, Why don't the humans have figured out the chemical structure of spice and began producing it artificially? Given the overwhelming importance of spice, this should be the very first step of the human civilisation. We have interstellar travel in the plot but not enough chemists to deconstruct a single compound.

1. Actually the Bene Tleilax do try to replicate spice :

Technologies​

The Bene Tleilax are masters of biological science and control the secrets of a number of important technologies in the Dune universe.

Axlotl tank​

Main article: Axlotl tank

An axlotl tank is essentially a brain-dead woman whose womb is used as a tank to create gholas. The Bene Tleilax's use of their women in this capacity explains why no one has ever seen a Tleilaxu female.

In Heretics of Dune, it is revealed that the Tleilaxu have developed the ability to grow the spice melange in axlotl tanks, breaking the monopoly on spice that Arrakis held for thousands of years which strongly controlled the economics and the politics of the Imperium.

In Chapterhouse Dune, the Bene Gesserit have acquired axlotl tank technology and are able to use it to make gholas for their own purposes, but not spice. They are revealed not to be tanks at all, but dramatically altered women.

But IIRC we read in the books that the synthetic spice does not work effectively.

2. Spice does not have a role in propelling the Guild Heighliner spaceships which can travel faster-than-light. The propulsion is done by the Holtzman Engine. The spice is ingested by the navigators of the heighliners to predict a safe path to the destination. This prediction is a limited version of the greater prediction / prescience that Paul has and his son Leto II has.

Regarding "Kwisatz Haderach is actually a lengthy genetic program of the Bene Gesserit" - this is again magical stuff. There is literally ZERO scientific stuff. If this sounds good to you then sorry you know very little real biology. This is just magical stuff again and bullshit at that too. Still, let us assume that this is possible in an alternate universe then why the **** Bene Gesserit don't fund genetic engineering and get their goal accomplished in seconds in a lab (of course after the research is complete)?! Why is every science is so outdated in Dune universe?!

1. Computers - which could be used in genetic engineering data processing - are banned in the Dune universe because of humankind's previous war with sentient machines, the war being called the Butlerian Jihad. The victorious humans create a law to never again create machines "in the image of man".

2. IIRC the Bene Gesserit use the technologies of the Bene Tleilax towards genetic engineering.

3. About technology in Dune being "outdated" it is not. Whether it is the FTL heighliners or force shields or glowglobes or other things including the oil lens which gives the best magnification :

• Oil lens ~ Hufuf-Oil held in tension in an enclosing force field, used as an optical component.

Overall as a sci-fi work, it is pretty outdated and stupid containing very meagre science. I would rather recommend Solaris by Stanisław Lem, Cosmos by Carl Sagan or even Arthur C. Clarke's works.

Dune does not just concentrate on technologies but also on the humans who use them and the politics of technology. I know of Solaris through reading its Wikipedia page and I have read that the two films which attempted it ( one from USSR and one from Hollywood ) did not show much of the sentient world called Solaris but concentrated just remotely on the effects of that world on the humans who had traveled to it. This perhaps has to do with inability of the film technicians to bring to life the completeness of the world Solaris in a manner that the technicians of Dune 2021 have realized the sounds and visualizations that seem real ( got to know this from YouTube ), for example the scenic lighting outside a Bene Gesserit ship that had just landed in the night with lights on and the CGI technicians ensuring realism by keeping some of the ship in shadow and darkness while most other Hollywood films especially action films would have the technicians eager to showoff their CGI by showing the ship but which would look silly and unrealistic.

And I have read other sci-fi books including the first two books in the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson and then there are the books by Ben Bova.

 

[Naofumi]

This is a human culture of a people called Zensunni Wanderers who after wandering around space for long settled on a mostly desert world where it had not rained for a long long time, where there were no open rivers and seas and where after settling there even a teardrop would elicit awe because water is so precious that emotions could not include tears because that would be water wasted and where when out in the desert the body's water would be kept on the body using the stillsuit ( technology by the Fremen ) and where when a person died his or her body's water ( lot of the human body is water ) would be recovered in a Still. That is great respect to water among the Fremen of Arrakis aka Dune so the Fremen extend their respect for water when giving loyalty by taking oath on the water content of their body which for convenience is spit. Spitting for the Fremen is giving loyalty and high respect. So as against your belief you don't know the finer details of the story.

Spit is despised because it leads to contagious diseases. Human body contains a large biome that is different for every person - this logically dictates the presence of microbes. I don't if the Dune touches on this but Arrakis has an active ecology and thus presence of microbes is a must. How then spit does not lead to diseases?

Paul is honorable because he is Paul and because of his parents who believe in fair play. Not because he is a White prince. When you will watch Dune 2023 film you may perhaps see the Baron's White nephew Feyd-Rautha who will use a foul means to trying to kill Paul after Paul becomes the ruler of Dune. And then in the beginning of the story the White Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam is ready to kill Paul should he try to escape her test.

The problem is that it is depicted a part of the culture - When Jamis wants to kill Paul even after being defeated, no Fremen objects showing that this is a part of their culture. Jamis could not have surrendered, it is a kill or die - savage.
Other evil characters are evil because of the individuality not of their cultural background.

And you know when you mentioned Jamis I was reminded of you - impetuous, impatient and lecturing your seniors.

Age doesn't translate into wisdom. I don't believe in ageism. Seniority is established by the correctness of ideas.

But Frank Herbert might have been influenced by the film Lawrence of Arabia, the element of a European man going to an exotic place to guide them to rebel against the monarchy.

And then he lead them into British colonialism, his viewpoint is of a colonist.

1. Actually the Bene Tleilax do try to replicate spice :
But IIRC we read in the books that the synthetic spice does not work effectively.

2. Spice does not have a role in propelling the Guild Heighliner spaceships which can travel faster-than-light. The propulsion is done by the Holtzman Engine. The spice is ingested by the navigators of the heighliners to predict a safe path to the destination. This prediction is a limited version of the greater prediction / prescience that Paul has and his son Leto II has.

There is no theoretical restriction such that we can not replicate any chemical compound, I expect an advanced civilisation to have that ability as a baseline.
On second point, first of all, I did not said that "spice have any role in propelling". Secondly, there is no prediction / prescience possible in real science (the part you skipped). So, nothing much to counter here.

1. Computers - which could be used in genetic engineering data processing - are banned in the Dune universe because of humankind's previous war with sentient machines, the war being called the Butlerian Jihad. The victorious humans create a law to never again create machines "in the image of man".

2. IIRC the Bene Gesserit use the technologies of the Bene Tleilax towards genetic engineering.

3. About technology in Dune being "outdated" it is not. Whether it is the FTL heighliners or force shields or glowglobes or other things including the oil lens which gives the best magnification :

You skipped explaining how something like superhuman genetic program is possible (Kwisatz Haderach) - there are literally no genes that controls any prescience abilities neither it is possible in any parallel reality at all - the part you again skipped. Also, we don't need advanced AI to process data - there could be dumb but efficient and fast computers - just like our computers but higher thresholds. No need to "create machines in the image of man".

 

[REhorror]

I do agree that Dune 2021 is a bit crap. I feel the incestual tone even stronger than the Lynch version since Lady Jessica friggin' mogs Shani's actress even harder in the 2021 one.
@Naofumi if you have times, watch the Lynch version, I still think that's the definite Live action adaptation of Dune.

But yes, it's essentially sci-fi Lawrence of Arabia, which is why it has an white european guy leading insurgents in a desert.

EDIT: I myself have been re-reading Berserk lately on my tablet, yes, the beginning and Golden Age arc still freaking hold up. It's good.

 

[Path-Finder]

for the fans of Berserk!

ITS BACK!!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1534023434174627840

 

[REhorror]

BERSERK DEFIES DEATH!