Revisiting the tragedy of December 1971

[Joe Shearer]

If that was lied about then what else was also lied about? It seems there were huge fairy tales made up about the Pakistan Army. Hence anything the indians or bengalis say cannot be believed.

<sigh!>

We have two options: either none of this happened, or there is THE TRUTH, and you are the guardian of that truth.

Out with it.

The issue that crops up is of Moral Courage.

It is an inherent bankruptcy observed forever.

It is, and was. You do remember that the highest military honours they awarded was done on the report of the Indian Army, formally sent to the PA.

At one time, perhaps three or four years ago, I had counted, after carefully going through various accounts. There are nearly a dozen medals awarded on the reports of the Indian Army. There is NOT ONE case of the reverse happening.

Moral courage comes in various wrappings.

 

[ranjeet]

Perhaps you could? Your kind have been making this accusation for nearly 50 years.

Haatho mein menhdi lagi hai? You are the one who is having cramps on our accusations why don't you clear the air by sharing our own finding?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It became the "Three nation theory".

Three take aways -

• for Pakistanis ~ two nation theory was just gimmick to undo the British project of 1849
• for Indians ~ one nation theory or such a thing as sub-continental Indian nation was pipedream only possible under conquest/British Empire. The sub-continent was as large as Europe, twice the population and ten times the diversity.
• the only 'natural' state in South Asia is Bangladesh based as it is on one ethnic group. India and Pakistan are union/federations of patchwork of ethnic/religious/linguistic groups each with theor own history.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Two take aways -

• for Pakistanis ~ two nation theory was just gimmick to undo the British project of 1849
• for Indians ~ one nation theory or such a thing as sub-continental Indian nation was pipedream only possible under conquest/British Empire. The sub-continent was as large as Europe, twice the population and ten times the diversity.
• the only 'natural' state in South Asia is Bangladesh based as it is on one ethnic group. India and Pakistan are union/federations of patchwork of ethnic/religious/linguistic groups each with theor own history.

I don't entirely agree, but you are clearly right about the third point. That is the only real Westphalian nation on the sub-continent. You do realise that the US is not one.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Haatho mein menhdi lagi hai? You are the one who is having cramps on our accusations why don't you clear the air by sharing our own finding?

Since you mentioned cramps it must be happening to you as you cannot prove or verify the wild accusations made by your kind for nearly 50 years.....

 

[Joe Shearer]

My Dear Sir.

You are playing by their rules.

They have shifted the narrative from where they were trying to revise their POWs. As always, revisionists seeking to delude themselves day in and day out.

Macht nichts. Truly. Even @ranjeet has 'got it', and is using the tactic.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I don't entirely agree, but you are clearly right about the third point. That is the only real Westphalian nation on the sub-continent. You do realise that the US is not one.

What do you disagree with?

 

[Joe Shearer]

This actually gives me a idea for another thread. Mmmm ....

Go for it.

What do you disagree with?

That the Indian and Pakistani experiments have failed. This needs a longer explanation. Right now, I am in a frivolous mood, but if you do a thread to present your ideas, I'd like to be tagged.

If I remember correctly, you have said earlier that only B'desh was a Westphalian nation; it was you, wasn't it?

Since you mentioned cramps it must be happening to you as you cannot prove or verify the wild accusations made by your kind for nearly 50 years.....

@ranjeet
@hellfire

He won't answer; he can't. See how it works?

I told you so.

 

[ranjeet]

Since you mentioned cramps it must be happening to you as you cannot prove or verify the wild accusations made by your kind for nearly 50 years.....

Nope its for everyone for to see who got the cramps..... why don't you ask @Indus Pakistan according to him one of his own relative was posted there. I am sure he must have able to get a broad idea about the sexual abuse during 71 when he was busy discussing whether it was two finger or three finger fck you to the two nation theory.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Anything that does not come from the biased perspective from the race and nation that calls for the death and destruction of the Pakistani race and nation. Also from sources that don't make ludicrous indianistic claims like the following:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ia-invented-internet-thousands-years-ago.html

@ranjeet
@hellfire

LOLOL.

It's down to perspective now. Fcuk the facts.

I TOLD you, @hellfire.

 

[Mage]

Ethnicity does not guarantee national unity....otherwise Arabs would be a super power today...a nation can have strong national unity despite being ethnically diverse...Malaysia, Indonesia....despite diversity, are they not a natural country? @Indus Pakistan Only bit more than half of Iran's population are Persian...yet they have strong national unity.

It is important for countries to form a system that would keep it together. Pakistan certainly faioed in that regard. The problem occurs when one group tries to dominate. Unless that group has like 80% of the population.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I've got to the stage where I can remember the MO of each member. There are some whom I treat with the respect that their sanity and wisdom has earned them, two outstanding, one more intellectually superior, but innately mischievous and irrepressible (he's here in this thread), a couple of dozen broadminded and thinking people, and the stereotypical. Even that last category can be spotted by the axes they carry to grind. The member I was teasing is one such; he is a one-trick pony. Ask him to define what he will accept and he is lost. I know the reply, and shall not deny myself the pleasure of receiving it.

@hellfire

Sorry to interrupt your packing, but just read on.

In the Mahabharata, it is related that on one occasion, a great Kaurava warrior released the Pawanastra. Krishna realised what had been done, and shouted at the Pandavas to lie flat on the ground. They all did, and the power shrieked and wailed about their ears but to no avail - till it suddenly flared up in intensity, to the point where the whole earth was in danger. Krishna looked around, and was startled to see a stubborn Bhim standing upright, fighting the weapon. He grabbed him and brought him down, on which the power found nothing to overthrow and dissipated itself.

With Rusty and with LastofthePatriots, or however he spells his name, that is what needs to be done.Both are nice chaps, who put on war paint and hone their tomahawks only at the end of any long and acrimonious thread. They are both too easy-going to persist.

Trying that with Areesh would not work, obviously.

With Indus Pakistan, it's quite different again. There is the socialist intellectual, one of high quality, but one who has a streak of contrariness in him. At those times, he goes hyper-patriot; I think it's a duty thing. For him, it's paying to ignore the hyper-patriot bits and wait patiently for the outrageously clever bits. If we can sucker him into a thread on the One-Nation, Two-Nation and Westphalian models, we are in for a treat. He's always good on solid things like that. The rest of it is going out for a beer with the lads.

 

[MultaniGuy]

You can be amibigious about. I just hate the Banglas period. You can choose to lick up the 'Muslim brotherhood' bullshat. When our soldiers faced the Indian horde these Muslim brothers of yours were fighting with Indians as 'Mukhti Bahini". As far as I am concerned we should not have even lost one of our boys in this dirty swamp.

But in this tragedy good came. It pierced the bloody heart of the Two Nation Theory and a rod up the a*ss of those who delude in the "Muslims of the Indian sub-continent" methane stink. And it left Pakistan as a nice contigous state on the Indus valley as Sir Allama Iqbal had enunciated.

Pakistan does not need Two Nation Theory to be created.
Muslims and Hindus are two separate communities. Thats the end of discussion.

Now whether Muslims and Hindus are two separate nations thats a separate matter.

Nation and community is not the same meaning.

I do not hate Bangladeshis. I have met some very good Bangladeshi Muslims who are even better Muslims than some Pakistanis are. lol.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ethnicity does not guarantee national unity....otherwise Arabs would be a super power today...a nation can have strong national unity despite being ethnically diverse...Malaysia, Indonesia....despite diversity, are they not a natural country? @Indus Pakistan Only bit more than half of Iran's population are Persian...yet they have strong national unity.

It is important for countries to form a system that would keep it together. Pakistan certainly faioed in that regard. The problem occurs when one group tries to dominate. Unless that group has like 80% of the population.

I agree, but let him develop the theme. It's bound to be interesting and thoughtful.

He is right about Bangladesh, though, and you should appreciate that.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Three take aways -

• for Pakistanis ~ two nation theory was just gimmick to undo the British project of 1849
• for Indians ~ one nation theory or such a thing as sub-continental Indian nation was pipedream only possible under conquest/British Empire. The sub-continent was as large as Europe, twice the population and ten times the diversity.
• the only 'natural' state in South Asia is Bangladesh based as it is on one ethnic group. India and Pakistan are union/federations of patchwork of ethnic/religious/linguistic groups each with theor own history.

Pakistan is here now, it cannot be undone. The Muslims of the British Raj demanded it and got what they wanted.

End of discussion.