Research Papers: Pakistani Aerospace Technologies

[Genghis khan1]

I didn't get good candidates. What does US students pursuing Ms and PhD programs have to do with that? Again you're comparing US and Pakistan, literally sitting on two extremes.

Try rereading your comment and than my reply and see if you can figure out the contexts before adding “have to do with that” with every sentence. You set the benchmark/ the reasoning and made the statement “subpar students who weren't able to find other in Pakistan” . What does someone not find a job in market like Pakistan has to do with him continuing his education. I am literally working with students, pursing MS and Doctorate, because they couldn’t get a job.

You graduate from a Pakistani institution, was than worked and trained by a Pakistani institution. Be able to get a job abroad based on same credentials, still you think their undergraduate levels are on two different extremes. Guess what, I can find you two engineering college in same US State with two different level of college graduate.

 

[Genghis khan1]

You're helping my point. Why did these capable people leave? Is leaving your home easy? Wouldn't most people choose to live at home if they had the some semblance of sanity?

Intent over here is not points scoring, you should be able to see the other side . Your premise that situation in SPD is so horrendous that engineers are leaving abroad to quench their thirst for scientific breakthroughs, is the biggest baloney I ever heard. They all left economic reasons, the two engineers I mentioned, one is working for airlines as fleet manger and other photography and stationery business with his brother in UK.

Ask Tahir Qadari or Hussain Haqqani about them moving abroad, and they will have 101 suggestions and complaints about how things are in Pakistan.

What can I say to this. Not sure what the point is. Military is good rishta making machine so I shouldn't say they manage military R&D badly. What?

Again context.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Norm sure. Is it right to treat noncadets poorly regardless (and sometimes because of) of their academic achievement in a university? I don't think so.

Not allowing them to piss in same bathroom is treating them bad? Do they make non cadets sleep on floor, reduce their rations, hang them upside down? What proof do you have that they treat other students disparately because of their academic achievements?

 

[Genghis khan1]

Sure, I'm just a guy on a forum. Maybe talk to 5-10 AM-manager level engineers in SPD organizations of what I (and several others here) are saying. I'm not going to convince you, I'm just a guy on a forum. And this isn't about "can't stop bad mouthing military". This is about real problems that require solutions. Our military suffers from the same cultural issues as our entire society. In the sphere of military R&D the fingers naturally point to them because they are in charge.

Do you not even know about black vigos? It has literally become a joke lol.

Actually I do know some of them. Also spend weekend on سونمیانی during my last visit. No I don’t know about black vigos, neither anyone ever mentioned them to me in Pakistan.

Every country take their national security seriously Recently FBI caught a Chinese-American researcher in MD Anderson cancer hospital. FBI litterly had a camera installed over his dining table at home (US citizen for 3 decades or so).

All I have to tell you, Welcome to America. Don’t get carried away, Abhi kafi kuch dekna hy.
Remember, soon you will hit a ceiling, beyond which you will not be allowed to proceed. Your foreign background and extended family abroad is a automatic disqualifier for any meaningful post in defense industry. Alteast you don’t have to worry about that in Pakistan.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Vehemently disagree. The money, sure. But the breakthroughs are made by private companies. Even DARPA FUNDS private companies.

It literally is. Officers treating R&D organizations like military units and all the good scientists and engineers leaving.

Read about DARPA history and evolution as a research organization, most of their stuff is classified and we may never know about it. These are military run and manned organizations, they bring in SME from different industries as needed. They give contracts to companies for specific task, because those companies are already industry leader in that technology. At no point on time a single person or outside company will know the true nature of the whole project or research.


Sure, Different military branches fund research projects in Universities to develop new technologies to fulfill certain requirements. Doesn’t mean they will outsource, research for stuff like Navy Nuclear propulsion. It’s a military project and school, similarly,Technologies developed by NSA to spy on the world. Every day 40,000 military and civilian drive to work under watch eye of a general.

Meet Admiral Hyman George Rickover, father of Navy Nuclear propulsion. He was tasked to deliver the impossible “Nuclear powered Subs”. While he was interviewing candidates for the mission at task, He order one candidate to go and stand in small closet in his office, and close the door. Candidate stayed there the whole day. This was his way to check how serious is the candidate for research project. one of many stories. Military has a different culture, because they have bigger picture in mind. Someone here mentioned he refused job offer because, PAF interviewer was asking questions or eyeballing him. If this hurts his feelings, than he should not have applied for a job or institution run by military. Tomorrow while working on a classified project, sometime else will hurt his feelings and he will caught a first flight to “Hurt feeling dept” inside US, Indian or British embassy.

Rickover, Hyman G.

Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, the father of the nuclear Navy, was born in Makow, Poland (then part of the Russian Empire), on 27 January 1900. At the age of 6, he came to the United States, settling in Chicago. Rickover entered the U.S. Naval Academy in 1918 and was commissioned an ensign in June...

www.history.navy.mil

 

[JamD]

Try rereading your comment and than my reply and see if you can figure out the contexts before adding “have to do with that” with every sentence. You set the benchmark/ the reasoning and made the statement “subpar students who weren't able to find other in Pakistan” . What does someone not find a job in market like Pakistan has to do with him continuing his education. I am literally working with students, pursing MS and Doctorate, because they couldn’t get a job.

You graduate from a Pakistani institution, was than worked and trained by a Pakistani institution. Be able to get a job abroad based on same credentials, still you think their undergraduate levels are on two different extremes. Guess what, I can find you two engineering college in same US State with two different level of college graduate.

Intent over here is not points scoring, you should be able to see the other side . Your premise that situation in SPD is so horrendous that engineers are leaving abroad to quench their thirst for scientific breakthroughs, is the biggest baloney I ever heard. They all left economic reasons, the two engineers I mentioned, one is working for airlines as fleet manger and other photography and stationery business with his brother in UK.

Ask Tahir Qadari or Hussain Haqqani about them moving abroad, and they will have 101 suggestions and complaints about how things are in Pakistan.

Again context.

Not allowing them to piss in same bathroom is treating them bad? Do they make non cadets sleep on floor, reduce their rations, hang them upside down? What proof do you have that they treat other students disparately because of their academic achievements?

Actually I do know some of them. Also spend weekend on سونمیانی during my last visit. No I don’t know about black vigos, neither anyone ever mentioned them to me in Pakistan.

Every country take their national security seriously Recently FBI caught a Chinese-American researcher in MD Anderson cancer hospital. FBI litterly had a camera installed over his dining table at home (US citizen for 3 decades or so).

All I have to tell you, Welcome to America. Don’t get carried away, Abhi kafi kuch dekna hy.
Remember, soon you will hit a ceiling, beyond which you will not be allowed to proceed. Your foreign background and extended family abroad is a automatic disqualifier for any meaningful post in defense industry. Alteast you don’t have to worry about that in Pakistan.

Read about DARPA history and evolution as a research organization, most of their stuff is classified and we may never know about it. These are military run and manned organizations, they bring in SME from different industries as needed. They give contracts to companies for specific task, because those companies are already industry leader in that technology. At no point on time a single person or outside company will know the true nature of the whole project or research.


Sure, Different military branches fund research projects in Universities to develop new technologies to fulfill certain requirements. Doesn’t mean they will outsource, research for stuff like Navy Nuclear propulsion. It’s a military project and school, similarly,Technologies developed by NSA to spy on the world. Every day 40,000 military and civilian drive to work under watch eye of a general.

Meet Admiral Hyman George Rickover, father of Navy Nuclear propulsion. He was tasked to deliver the impossible “Nuclear powered Subs”. While he was interviewing candidates for the mission at task, He order one candidate to go and stand in small closet in his office, and close the door. Candidate stayed there the whole day. This was his way to check how serious is the candidate for research project. one of many stories. Military has a different culture, because they have bigger picture in mind. Someone here mentioned he refused job offer because, PAF interviewer was asking questions or eyeballing him. If this hurts his feelings, than he should not have applied for a job or institution run by military. Tomorrow while working on a classified project, sometime else will hurt his feelings and he will caught a first flight to “Hurt feeling dept” inside US, Indian or British embassy.

Rickover, Hyman G.

Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, the father of the nuclear Navy, was born in Makow, Poland (then part of the Russian Empire), on 27 January 1900. At the age of 6, he came to the United States, settling in Chicago. Rickover entered the U.S. Naval Academy in 1918 and was commissioned an ensign in June...

www.history.navy.mil

I could try replying to all that you have said but I will excuse myself. Sorry. I know it is unfair to you that you spent time. However, I think this debate has reached a point of diminishing returns. To me you are negating decades of my personal experience and that of my closest friends and colleagues (I am from aerospace in case you haven't guessed already). To you I'm just a guy on the internet. Fair enough. You are not going to convince me because that would require me to forget all of my experiences and that of my friends. Clearly, I am not convincing you. Readers can read both sides of the argument, do their own investigations, and decide what's right. This thread titled "Research Papers: Pakistan Aerospace Technologies," that I have spent a lot of time curating has been derailed enough by our debtate in my opinion. I appreciate your time and effort and would appreciate if you can contribute to this thread in its spirit with any research that you find. Thanks.

 

[S.Y.A]

Read about DARPA history and evolution as a research organization, most of their stuff is classified and we may never know about it. These are military run and manned organizations, they bring in SME from different industries as needed. They give contracts to companies for specific task, because those companies are already industry leader in that technology. At no point on time a single person or outside company will know the true nature of the whole project or research.


Sure, Different military branches fund research projects in Universities to develop new technologies to fulfill certain requirements. Doesn’t mean they will outsource, research for stuff like Navy Nuclear propulsion. It’s a military project and school, similarly,Technologies developed by NSA to spy on the world. Every day 40,000 military and civilian drive to work under watch eye of a general.

Meet Admiral Hyman George Rickover, father of Navy Nuclear propulsion. He was tasked to deliver the impossible “Nuclear powered Subs”. While he was interviewing candidates for the mission at task, He order one candidate to go and stand in small closet in his office, and close the door. Candidate stayed there the whole day. This was his way to check how serious is the candidate for research project. one of many stories. Military has a different culture, because they have bigger picture in mind. Someone here mentioned he refused job offer because, PAF interviewer was asking questions or eyeballing him. If this hurts his feelings, than he should not have applied for a job or institution run by military. Tomorrow while working on a classified project, sometime else will hurt his feelings and he will caught a first flight to “Hurt feeling dept” inside US, Indian or British embassy.

Rickover, Hyman G.

Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, the father of the nuclear Navy, was born in Makow, Poland (then part of the Russian Empire), on 27 January 1900. At the age of 6, he came to the United States, settling in Chicago. Rickover entered the U.S. Naval Academy in 1918 and was commissioned an ensign in June...

www.history.navy.mil

your example of darpa or nuclear propulsion doesnt fit here. talking to to a couple of people here and there isnt going to change the reality. generals are not good at everything. no one is denying the importance of security. its the environment, that restricts research and innovation and promotes TC culture, that is under criticism here. outsourcing, if done to a local company, is okay, but importing parts from china, turkey or elsewhere and just slapping your name and logo on top of it is not the way to go.

Just to add some context to this observation.

PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash" It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.

However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.

there are murmurs of it being wrapped up. AWC should never have been cut off, and even if it was put under nescom, it should have collaborated and coordinated with PAC.

 

[S.Y.A]

also, on one hand people talk about how private industry's involvement in def production is the way to go, but at the same time forces look upon private companies with scorn and as something beneath them, and at the same time try to concentrate as much of the supply chain under own org/setups as possible. its killing the private industry.

 

[JamD]

there are murmurs of it being wrapped up. AWC should never have been cut off, and even if it was put under nescom, it should have collaborated and coordinated with PAC.

Yes I have heard those murmurs too. And agreed on your point.

 

[S.Y.A]

Yes I have heard those murmurs too. And agreed on your point.

politics and inter-departmental rivalries eff up a lot of things.

Military brought in experts from civilian world to work for them. At no point in time they release their authority or responsibility to them. Most civilians don’t realize, they may not know the bigger picture for the project that the guy in uniform is aware off.

In Pakistan, it was civilians who brought in civilians to develop the nuclear program, it was civilians who setup suparco and spearheaded our rocket research, and it was the civilians at krl who were able to bring and improve the liquid fueled ballistic missile. all of that was done keeping in mind Pakistan's national security, but at no point, until mushi, was military so involved and controlling in military R&D.

 

[S.Y.A]

Runway Detection and Localization in Aerial Images Using Deep Learning
and
Automated Military Vehicle Detection from Low-Altitude Aerial_Images

Some fun work done at National Center of Artificial Intelligence (NCAI)

looks like i am very late to the party, i was doing something similar. oh well...

 

[JamD]

So I know that @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has been going on about how the Navy is doing some really pragmatic and forward-thinking things. Well, I was going through papers and there is DEFINITELY something going on.

So places like NESCOM do publish sometimes. Sometimes directly, sometimes though proxies. However, they publish maybe 2% of their work as we have seen in this thread with hints of systems that we now know exist.

Well, the number of papers on underwater systems (sensor networks and UUVs) has been seeing an almost exponential growth. I will be posting many of them here. You can see for yourself. I am pretty sure we are going to see Pakistan do some pretty amazing things in this sphere.


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[JamD]

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@Imran Khan is that you?

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This is NESCOM people fyi.

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[JamD]

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[JamD]

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Anyone want to guess what this is about? Vertically launching missile shaped objects from underwater platforms lol.

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