Research Papers: Pakistani Aerospace Technologies

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Just to add some context to this observation.

PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash" It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.

However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.

Ideally, they'd restructure AvRID into a skunkworks for feasible R&D goals. So, instead of going all-in on a NGFA, they'd focus on very specific inputs (e.g., materials science for airframe parts) or smaller projects, like munitions and drones.

 

[JamD]

Just guide me in good direction

Read from

Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

What you truly need is a working economy and the private sector participating in developing such tech. No military does it's own R&D and produces the top line equipment as they are always under a budget. They rather pay advanced organizations who create jobs and have a talent pool, to come up...

defence.pk

to

Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

The only consortium interested (Turkey) wants Pakistan for economies-of-scale (i.e., a healthy PAF order). In fact, they don't have a reason to let Pakistan in except that this is a high-risk project and that (for the time being) Turkey is okay with being nice. However, the accommodating...

defence.pk

for a lot of detail on Azm specific discussion.


Here for some general discussion on SPD R&D:

The Real Threat to Pakistan’s National Security – Part 1

As India surges ahead with its defence procurement and technology, what can Pakistan do with its limited means to gain parity?

quwa.org

The Real Threat to Pakistan’s National Security – Part 2

This article offers a roadmap for overhauling the administration of Pakistan’s existing network of military and strategic state-owned enterprises.

quwa.org

The Real Threat to Pakistan’s National Security – Part 3

Now would be the absolute worst time to be left behind technologically, especially due to easily fixable faults in Pakistan's systems.

quwa.org

 

[Warking]

Autonomous terrain-following for unmanned air vehicles
Work on Burraq UCAV
View attachment 786506
Flight envelope for Burraq WOW:
View attachment 786507
View attachment 786509










Runway Detection and Localization in Aerial Images Using Deep Learning
and
Automated Military Vehicle Detection from Low-Altitude Aerial_Images

Some fun work done at National Center of Artificial Intelligence (NCAI)

Are these actual files if so shouldn't it be classified i dont want black vigo at my door.

 

[JamD]

Are these actual files if so shouldn't it be classified i dont want black vigo at my door.

These are papers published on the internet in journals and conferences. I didn't find and post anything classified.

 

[Genghis khan1]

He said from day one the cadets were taught they were better than everyone and the cadets never made him forget it. There were different bathrooms for cadets and civilians.

Norm everywhere. Specially for cadets. Motivation and confidence is part of military training and rightly so. Same happens in US military academies. These cadets most probably wake up at 5 am, get roughed up in PT. Chewed out by many, even before civilian woke up and start brushing his teeth.

On a positive note, Civilians in Pentagon/American Military faces the same issues

Ex Pentagon Software Chief resignation note. He resigned due to the same fauji mindset being discussed here
"
In his resignation announcement, too, he did not reveal his disappointment with the way Pentagon functions. "Please stop putting a Major or Lt Col. (despite their devotion, exceptional attitude, and culture) in charge of ICAM, Zero Trust or Cloud for 1 to 4 million users when they have no previous experience in that field – we are setting up critical infrastructure to fail. We would not put a pilot in the cockpit without extensive flight training; why would we expect someone with no IT experience to be close to successful? They do not know what to execute on or what to prioritize which leads to endless risk reduction efforts and diluted focus," he had written."

US has already lost to China in AI fight, says ex-Pentagon software chief

US has already lost to China in AI fight, says ex-Pentagon software chief “We have no competing fighting chance against China in 15 to 20 years. Right now, it’s already a done deal; it is already over in my opinion,” the 37-year-old first chief software office for the US Air Force said...

defence.pk

Military brought in experts from civilian world to work for them. At no point in time they release their authority or responsibility to them. Most civilians don’t realize, they may not know the bigger picture for the project that the guy in uniform is aware off.

 

[Genghis khan1]

I look at SUPARCO and they had different bathrooms for officers and "others".

That’s how it is in US military. Bathrooms are almost always divided by Office/enlisted ( or civilian grade equivalent). Sometimes maintain security level for projects of different classifications.

Similarly, mess hall will have 3 different marked areas for enlisted, non-commissioned and commissioned officers. As a matter of fact, I even noticed disparity in food service at the mess line.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

I'd say the PAF, at an operational level, is trying to work on 'ground-breaking' stuff, but through imports from China. The domestic R&D base isn't doing much to support those aspirations.

So basically, procuring turnkey solutions, not developing them at home.

 

[JamD]

Norm everywhere. Specially for cadets. Motivation and confidence is part of military training and rightly so. Same happens in US military academies. These cadets most probably wake up at 5 am, get roughed up in PT. Chewed out by many, even before civilian woke up and start brushing his teeth.

Norm sure. Is it right to treat noncadets poorly regardless (and sometimes because of) of their academic achievement in a university? I don't think so.

Military brought in experts from civilian world to work for them. At no point in time they release their authority or responsibility to them. Most civilians don’t realize, they may not know the bigger picture for the project that the guy in uniform is aware off.

I don't agree with your assertions. How are Raytheon and Lockmart working on the most cutting edge of research then? Headed by the US military? No.

That’s how it is in US military. Bathrooms are almost always divided by Office/enlisted ( or civilian grade equivalent). Sometimes maintain security level for projects of different classifications.

Similarly, mess hall will have 3 different marked areas for enlisted, non-commissioned and commissioned officers. As a matter of fact, I even noticed disparity in food service at the mess line.

Yes in a military set up that is expected. My point is that you don't want to deal with gora sahb bloody civilian crap while you're trying to do R&D.

I understand that the theme of your posts is about how this is normal and ok by comparing to the US but I disagree with your theme because comparisons between US and Pakistan are very very problematic:
1. The US military isn't the gora sahb of the US. The Pakistani military is.
2. Majority of military R&D in the US happens in private sector. Little to no R&D happens in the private sector in Pakistan.
3. You won't step into Raytheon and suddenly civilians and US Army people have better bathrooms, mess lines etc.
4. Civillians also have morale and the kind of gora sahb afsar bloody civilian mentality that we see in Pakistan's almost exclusively military run R&D setups does terrible things for it.

So I think the problems that I was pointing out are real problems that affect our R&D capacity in meaningful ways.

 

[TsAr]

Just to add some context to this observation.

PAF used to have AWC to do R&D. However, with the establishment of NESCOM, AWC was put under it. This took away PAF's "R&D arm". PAF was left with PAC, which is a manufacturing/overhaul arm with limited R&D capacity. There was an R&D shaped hole in the PAF that AvRID hoped to fill. AvRID is struggling to do this for the following reasons:
1. AvRID has to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things and information/tech doesn't flow freely between the SPD AWC and PAF AvRID.
2. AvRID's future is uncertain in the eyes of the PAF high command and thus its civillian employees are on annual contracts. This isn't great for talent retention but this isn't such a huge deal, just an indicator.
3. "AvRID's ego is writing checks that it's R&D cannot cash" It has aimed for the stars but it isn't nearly as funded or have enough across the board buy in.
4. There are opponents to AvRID inside of PAF itself.

However, I think AvRID is a break from the norm (in several important R&D aspects) that should survive at all costs, regardless of what (if anything) it produces. But I fear that it might be axed primarily because it is so different and there's a major mismatch in goals/capabilities, which will lead to terrible performance reviews for it.

not sure if AWC is under Nescom, will have to check on it, but AWC projects are totally independent of Nescom.

 

[JamD]

not sure if AWC is under Nescom, will have to check on it, but AWC projects are totally independent of Nescom.

AWC is definitely a part of NESCOM but you are right that they sort of do their own thing.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Norm sure. Is it right to treat noncadets poorly regardless (and sometimes because of) of their academic achievement in a university? I don't think so.

Something is not adding up. What is guy with a academic achievement doing between cadets. I think we are talking about civilian guy attending military run technical school or something. If Mr. Civilian is so eager to join the cadet, than he should show up to evening formation for a night of scrubbing bathroom corners with toothbrush. Be ready for white glove inspection the next morning.

The US military isn't the gora sahb of the US. The Pakistani military is.

This issue isn’t limited to military. Judge sahib, AC sahib. MNA/MPA sahib, Bureaucrat sahib everyone is a sahib Gee in Pakistan. Only difference is, if you challenge any other Sahib, they will send their bodyguards thugs or police to your house and teach you a lesson. Fauji don’t do that.
On a side note, haqeeqt b kuch yhi hy, if you give someone a helping hand and pull them up, or lower your self to be friendly, wo app ky hi sar per char ker joota Mry ga.

You won't step into Raytheon and suddenly civilians and US Army people have better bathrooms, mess lines etc.

These two are supposedly private corporations and public traded companies. Although in reality they are extension of US govt (military industries complex). I don’t think there are any cadet or uniform personnel in cooperations.

Civillians also have morale and the kind of gora sahb afsar bloody civilian mentality that we see in Pakistan's almost exclusively military run R&D setups does terrible things for it.

I don’t know what is the reality behind this allegation. First time I heard this term was through TV by Hamid mir. Only other time I heard this was from newly immigrated brother, who turn out got in fight with some boys (military brats) outside bahria college for boys Islamabad. Now they can’t stop bad mouthing military. Btw the way, term like nasty, weak or disgusting civilian is wide use in US military academies to indoctrinate cadets/recruits into new transformed lifestyle of military.

Although this is a movie, but this part was not scripted. Lee Emry was Drill Instructor (retired) in real life, and was told to do what he did in Boot camp.

Actually military is the driving factor behind all the cutting edge breakthroughs in US. For e.g: DARPA. Pakistan issue isn’t captain or colonel sahib, Pakistan high education system and universities failed to produce scientists and researchers. Those that are some what capable, would caught the first flight abroad as soon as opportunity arises. I know at least two engineers, one trained at PAF institution for PIA, other by Nescom. They did their mandatory 2-3 years after graduating, than off to Middle East. Now one is in Australia and other one is in UK.

Thanks to credential from military institutions, Both found a decent run ristha (doctors), and job offer abroad. Meanwhile their fellow cadet in Uniform most probably graduated and still serving their country with whatever pay they get.

 

[Goritoes]

After a long time, a thread that goes above my head really that is what PDF should be

 

[Genghis khan1]

However, I have tried getting Pakistani students into good PhD programs using my connections - however, the only people who got in touch were subpar students who weren't able to find other jobs in Pakistan so I couldn't, in good conscience, recommend them.

Btw, it’s not uncommon for students here in US to pursue Ms or PhD programs because they couldn’t find a job. Hardest part of college education is the first 4 years.

 

[JamD]

Something is not adding up. What is guy with a academic achievement doing between cadets. I think we are talking about civilian guy attending military run technical school or something. If Mr. Civilian is so eager to join the cadet, than he should show up to evening formation for a night of scrubbing bathroom corners with toothbrush. Be ready for white glove inspection the next morning.

I think you're missing some vital info here. We are discussing CAE Risalpur, which is a part of NUST. You can enroll at NUST CAE Risalpur as a civilian. In Pakistan, if you wanted to get a degree in aeronautical/aerospace there are only 2 places (of any repute) that you can go to - it used to be just 1 before 2002. So this "guy with academic achievement" like many other aspiring aerospace people in Pakistan have little choice but to end up at either IST or CAE. Rest assured, more and more people are ending up at IST exactly because of how civilians are treated at CAE. Just because you want a degree in aerspace does not mean you want to be treated like a cadet.

This issue isn’t limited to military. Judge sahib, AC sahib. MNA/MPA sahib, Bureaucrat sahib everyone is a sahib Gee in Pakistan. Only difference is, if you challenge any other Sahib, they will send their bodyguards thugs or police to your house and teach you a lesson. Fauji don’t do that.
On a side note, haqeeqt b kuch yhi hy, if you give someone a helping hand and pull them up, or lower your self to be friendly, wo app ky hi sar per char ker joota Mry ga.

Yes, I agree and made that point already. However, this thread and this discussion is about military R&D that is exclusively managed by military gora sahb.

This issue isn’t limited to military. Judge sahib, AC sahib. MNA/MPA sahib, Bureaucrat sahib everyone is a sahib Gee in Pakistan. Only difference is, if you challenge any other Sahib, they will send their bodyguards thugs or police to your house and teach you a lesson. Fauji don’t do that.

Do you not even know about black vigos? It has literally become a joke lol.

These two are supposedly private corporations and public traded companies. Although in reality they are extension of US govt (military industries complex).

These are not "supposedly" private companies. They ARE private companies. They work closely with the US government in a way that is hard for us to imagine. The military industrial complex is a dangerous thing especially because it ends up controlling the government instead of being controlled by it. How is it such a dangerous thing if its an extension of the US govt?

I don’t think there are any cadet or uniform personnel in cooperations.

Yes, exactly. That was my point. You can work on military R&D in the US (and hundreds of thousands do) without being in a military set up where they have to be treated like "others".

I don’t know what is the reality behind this allegation. First time I heard this term was through TV by Hamid mir. Only other time I heard this was from newly immigrated brother, who turn out got in fight with some boys (military brats) outside bahria college for boys Islamabad. Now they can’t stop bad mouthing military.

Sure, I'm just a guy on a forum. Maybe talk to 5-10 AM-manager level engineers in SPD organizations of what I (and several others here) are saying. I'm not going to convince you, I'm just a guy on a forum. And this isn't about "can't stop bad mouthing military". This is about real problems that require solutions. Our military suffers from the same cultural issues as our entire society. In the sphere of military R&D the fingers naturally point to them because they are in charge.

Btw the way, term like nasty, weak or disgusting civilian is wide use in US military academies to indoctrinate cadets/recruits into new transformed lifestyle of military.

And this is relevant to this thread how? The story wasn't about someone who went to Kakul. This was just a guy that wanted to get an aerospace degree. I think I'm repeating myself now. We're not communicating well.

Actually military is the driving factor behind all the cutting edge breakthroughs in US. For e.g: DARPA.

Vehemently disagree. The money, sure. But the breakthroughs are made by private companies. Even DARPA FUNDS private companies.

Pakistan issue isn’t captain or colonel sahib, Pakistan high education system and universities failed to produce scientists and researchers.

It literally is. Officers treating R&D organizations like military units and all the good scientists and engineers leaving.

Those that are some what capable, would caught the first flight abroad as soon as opportunity arises. I know at least two engineers, one trained at PAF institution for PIA, other by Nescom. They did their mandatory 2-3 years after graduating, than off to Middle East. Now one is in Australia and other one is in UK.

You're helping my point. Why did these capable people leave? Is leaving your home easy? Wouldn't most people choose to live at home if they had the some semblance of sanity?

Thanks to credential from military institutions, Both found a decent run ristha (doctors), and job offer abroad. Meanwhile their fellow cadet in Uniform most probably graduated and still serving their country with whatever pay they get.

What can I say to this. Not sure what the point is. Military is good rishta making machine so I shouldn't say they manage military R&D badly. What?

Btw, it’s not uncommon for students here in US to pursue Ms or PhD programs because they couldn’t find a job. Hardest part of college education is the first 4 years.

I didn't get good candidates. What does US students pursuing Ms and PhD programs have to do with that? Again you're comparing US and Pakistan, literally sitting on two extremes.

 

[AeroEngineer]

Reading some of the posts, just some thoughts. Part of the rationale given in the past about same treatment of civilians and cadets at CAE was that the grading system was based on bell curve. If civilians were day scholars and not subjected to the same “extra-curricular activities “ then military cadets would suffer in grading. I don’t agree with the rationale as underlying reason is different in my opinion. NUST civilian students may have a different experience recently, if the posts convey the story, since obviously they did not sign up for this harsh treatment and probably are not briefed for this. Civil-military divide in the society apart, most of the academies the world over are geared towards pumping up the egos of their cadets to fill them with pride on joining the ranks and serving the country. This obviously can make it a somewhat toxic environment in a place full of 16-18 year olds bursting with testosterone who are given authority over others. This hazing rightly or wrongly has become an institutional rite of passage. Thankfully due to regulations, and some societal norms this remains within some bounds (and not like the horror stories you hear in news sometimes from round the world even in civil institutions).
Part of scraping through this supposed ordeal is also on part of individuals attitude, if they consider that if life gives you lemons you make lemonade. You have to have a thick skin to not let comments about being a civilian get to you. There was sustained period in the mid-90s where civilians were consistently getting the top coveted awards. In short yes it may not be ideal civilian learning environment but what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. The extra pressures help you figure out how to most efficiently use the available time. Many of the civilian graduates of CAE have gone on to prestigious universities abroad like MIT, Stanford, UT, Cranfield etc.