Record number of Pakistanis visited India last year

[scorpionx]

concerns r genuine

The concern might be genuine but the solution was not.Relying on a local solution for an universal problem does not sound to be a very good idea.If stopping the radicalization of a society/larger group of people is the motive here, mere restricting certain nationals can not make it. Radicalization is possible without much face to face interaction.

 

[Chak Bamu]

hey,,hey,,,.u guys,,@Ravi Nair
In my view @Contrarian 's concerns r genuine,,,,as genuine as that of some Pakistani members here,regarding a Indian movies,serials influence on Pakistani public.......

Genuine from him, but in a totally wrong context and frame of mind. Indian movies have been around like forever for us in Pakistan. That does not change much for us. I do not watch them, but I am not going to start a crusade, because watching or not watching Indian movies makes little perceptible difference. Its the same with what he is saying - he may have concerns but they would eventually not matter much at all. He just seems disturbed about ISIS propaganda and possible Pakistani input - totally ignoring that peace constituency is pretty strong actually.

 

[halupridol]

The concern might be genuine but the solution was not.Relying on a local solution for an universal problem does not sound to be a very good idea.If stopping the radicalization of a society/larger group of people is the motive here, mere restricting certain nationals can not make it. Radicalization is possible without much face to face interaction.

well,,bro,,,,admitting that,a problem exists is in itself the first step towards the solution....
moreover i highly doubt that our concerned authorities in govt. r oblivious to such issues...

 

[Bearwithclaws]

Indians like you and @Bearwithclaws come to PDF, spread your absurd views and trolling, insult our identity, belittle everything every effort, every thought even that Pakistanis might have - and then you have the gall to accuse Pakistanis of spreading extremist views and what not. What is it that you and people like yourself do here on PDF all the time, if not spread negativity and extreme opinions? You can dish it out but you can not take it. That is called hypocrisy.

If you had been following what I have said, you would recall I am suggesting reduction in the number as a short term measure. Given the hostilities are Countries conduct business in there is is this genuine concern of Pakistani ideology spreading in India. We don't trust Pakistanis and until something positive comes out of Pakistan we cannot afford to let you guys inside our Country certainly not in such numbers. In addition, I also discourage any treatment of Pakistanis in India as there is genuine concern of that person becoming a terrorist in your country.

But we are ourselves are at fault if we have not framed a stringent enough policy for Pakistanis. You talk as if Pakistan is in the news for everything positive. You are country which survives on extremist ideology and so it is only natural for us to raise concerns.

 

[halupridol]

Genuine from him, but in a totally wrong context and frame of mind. Indian movies have been around like forever for us in Pakistan. That does not change much for us. I do not watch them, but I am not going to start a crusade, because watching or not watching Indian movies makes little perceptible difference. Its the same with what he is saying - he may have concerns but they would eventually not matter much at all. He just seems disturbed about ISIS propaganda and possible Pakistani input - totally ignoring that peace constituency is pretty strong actually.

agreed,,,,he's concerns r valid n not absurd like many assume thm to be...................although they may sound abit farfetched.


,,,,,,but concerned ppl will be concerned nonetheless
we have multiple,, 50+ pages discussions here(some with polls) on how Indian movies,serials r influencing Pakistani public opinion n culture,,,lots of tt's,mods,admins concerned about it..

 

[wolfschanzze]

Treating a small child with heart problems or transplantiinga kidney of a sick person is not being a Gandhi, it is about being human. I am not advocating you to go show your other cheek but slapping a person who is ill is not about being brave.

When they break all Lines of humanity when they bomb us with terrorist attacks why should we show humanity to such people? for all we know that person in end might become a terrorist or simply a supporter of violence against India.We are not humanity's Thekedars,there are limits to humanity you don't show kindness to a nation which has been attacking us for the past 60+ years,cos if you do that kindness will come and bite you in the end.It is us who have to pay the cost not them.Better to avoid such people.

Good.. more people should come..

No need let them be where they are, We got enough of our own to take care of, We all knew where that Lahore Bus thing went, we got Kargil just after AB Vajpayee flagged off the Indo-Pak bus route.
Don't need such trouble again.

 

[livingdead]

When they break all Lines of humanity when they bomb us with terrorist attacks why should we show humanity to such people? for all we know that person in end might become a terrorist or simply a supporter of violence against India.We are not humanity's Thekedars,there are limits to humanity you don't show kindness to a nation which has been attacking us for the past 60+ years,cos if you do that kindness will come and bite you in the end.It is us who have to pay the cost not them.Better to avoid such people.


No need let them be where they are, We got enough of our own to take care of, We all knew where that Lahore Bus thing went, we got Kargil just after AB Vajpayee flagged off the Indo-Pak bus route.
Don't need such trouble again.

pakistani civilians did not do kargil, and inspite of record number of visitors we got no terrorism.
Mumbai attack was sponsored and orchastrated by govt agencies, most pakistani terrorists will not come by legal route.
And its not kindness to allow people from neighbouring countries to visit you, its minimal decency that a country can show. Are not indians going for religious tourism to pakistan in big numbers?
Also treating their patients are not acts of kindness, afgan and pakistanis spend big money in India for medical tourism.

 

[WishLivePak]

Oh man, this must be the most unoriginal trolling comment I have seen. You are not even trying anymore

come on man, it's not that hard to troll Indians

they better learn from me

 

[wolfschanzze]

pakistani civilians did not do kargil, and inspite of record number of visitors we got no terrorism.
Mumbai attack was sponsored and orchastrated by govt agencies, most pakistani terrorists will not come by legal route.
And its not kindness to allow people from neighbouring countries to visit you, its minimal decency that a country can show. Are not indians going for religious tourism to pakistan in big numbers?
Also treating their patients are not acts of kindness, afgan and pakistanis spend big money in India for medical tourism.

The recon mission was done by a civilian named David headley through legal route and then the plan was hatched by ISI after his recon mission reports.
I see pakistanis gloating over how India was hurt and how their super jihadis killed Indian armymen.Why should we take this crap?We don't treat their patients no matter how bad they are it is their responsibility.

Sorry but i don't think you understand i am in that Medical field and no they don't spend big money in India for medical tourism, most of it is heavily subsidized by GOI and most of the times the hospitals do it for free, i don't see that kind of charity being shown to Poor Indians who have same ailments, why because we need to show our kindness to an enemy nation?to what end? you know no matter what kindness you show they will still build weapons of war against you and try to hurt us in every possible way,why show kindness to such people?

i can be ok with Afghanisthan people coming over as they are just starting as nation after civil war.
Pakistan on the other hand NO!they had more than 60+ years to develop and make their own Medical Infrastructure and facilities,yet they build nukes,jet planes,helicopters with american aid money to target us instead.Why should we show kindness to them when every military purchase they make is with India on their mind?
They build nukes and you treat their patients? WoW.
I don't want bomb blasts or radicalization done in my country, so it's better to be safe than sorry.

Kindness,Humanity look great on paper but in reality they hardly matter, they will still build bombs to target India while you being a fool keep treating their injured or sick people who will join their Army or Anti-india organizations.
It's like you are indirectly helping them recruit healthy soldiers for battle against India.

 

[baajey]

it may be a fact that I m the least experienced when it comes in meeting a Pakistani face to face. I m working in the site where, mallus, phillipinos, pakis, Bangladeshis, Punjabis n Bengalis (like me) are working side by side.
I have met about 8 or 9 of them and except one, the rest had been very courteous and friendly.
being alert is good, but locking ourselves up in the name of security n alertness is pathetic

 

[Bearwithclaws]

pakistani civilians did not do kargil, and inspite of record number of visitors we got no terrorism.
Mumbai attack was sponsored and orchastrated by govt agencies, most pakistani terrorists will not come by legal route.
And its not kindness to allow people from neighbouring countries to visit you, its minimal decency that a country can show. Are not indians going for religious tourism to pakistan in big numbers?
Also treating their patients are not acts of kindness, afgan and pakistanis spend big money in India for medical tourism.

Give this man a cookie for taking the moral high ground.

Kindness? Wow you deserve to be the NSA. Kindness is a two way street. Do you want to be kind if again Mumbai takes place? Do you want to be kind if are soldiers are beheaded?

Who was Kasab? A normal Pakistani. Yet you see how easily these people can be brainwashed in the name of Islam and kill in the name of Allah.

Until Pakistan is free from extremist ideology you don't allow them in our country. Heck, what does Pakistan bring to the table anyway? Bombs and Allah-Hu-Akbar chanting extremists?

it may be a fact that I m the least experienced when it comes in meeting a Pakistani face to face. I m working in the site where, mallus, phillipinos, pakis, Bangladeshis, Punjabis n Bengalis (like me) are working side by side.
I have met about 8 or 9 of them and except one, the rest had been very courteous and friendly.
being alert is good, but locking ourselves up in the name of security n alertness is pathetic

Its unfortunate we have Pakistan as our neighbours. If for someone else I would have agreed with you but you should be ll eyes when it comes to Pakistan. Being pro active might just save us from another Mumbai.

 

[Contrarian]

@Contrarian

I've quickly scanned the first few pages of this thread. I've noted your views and extreme opinions. I've also read the troll posts that arose in reaction to your extremist views.

I will let some other mod take action here. In my judgement either the whole thread should be deleted because this here is a troll fest pure and simple. But apparently you did not mean it as such and probably were giving your honest opinions. However, your opinions have attracted trolling as a result and I can not be selective about trolling and extreme opinions. I can not take one out and leave the other that had caused it.

Indians like you and Bearwithclawscome to PDF, spread your absurd views and trolling, insult our identity, belittle everything every effort, every thought even that Pakistanis might have - and then you have the gall to accuse Pakistanis of spreading extremist views and what not. What is it that you and people like yourself do here on PDF all the time, if not spread negativity and extreme opinions? You can dish it out but you can not take it. That is called hypocrisy.

It is very ironic that your views are like self-fulfilling prophecies. What you claim and what you advocate out of fear is exactly that which would create all that you fear. Only when you think of people as objects and deal with them as such, you are signalling that you yourself deserve no better. The antidote of extremism is engagement, unless some totally insurmountable difficulty makes that impossible. IMV there is no such thing between Indians and Pakistanis. Some short-sighted people bent on perpetuating hate should not get to set agenda for everyone.

Finally about that friend of yours and his Tablighi Jamaat cousin: You just do not know what you are talking about here. How many Tablighi Jamaat people have you known, spoken to, or tried to understand what they say? None is my guess. I have met Tablighi Jamaat people in four continents - they are the same everywhere. They are totally apolitical. They are totally focused on making Muslims more aware of their own personal morality and practice. They do not turn people into extremists as such. I know them very well. Many Pakistani members on this forum must also know a good bit about them. That is why it is safe to say that you know nothing about Tablighi Jamaat people. For your information, Tablighi Jamaat started from around Delhi in British India, and is spread all over the world. India is still the head-quarter of this peaceful movement. These people are remarkably alike in their views no matter where you meet them. You can not bring it into this Pakistan-India thing of yours.

I suggest that next time you think of posting a thread like this, do think a little whether or not you are actually abusing courtesy extended to you at PDF.

A good post Chak bamu.
1. Let me start off by saying the thread was not intended as a troll fest one bit. One of the reasons I have almost completely avoided quoting those intending to troll and divert the topic.
2. You presume that my post implies a belittling of identity - where as I have clearly mentioned that Pakistani society has changed over the last 2 decades on account of a foreign ideology of salafi/wahabi which was absent from Pakistan.
Now as mentioned had Pakistan and Pakistanis back then been aware the damage that 'dialogue' with ideologues and followers, they would never have allowed them a foot inside of Pakistan.
3. You point of self-fulfilling prophecy is a good point. You also say that the anti-dote of extremism is engagement. I ask the question, engagement with whom? Certainly engagement with the average Indian will not change an extremists mind.
4. I am very well aware of Tabliqi Jamaat my friend. You presume I do not know their goals and methods. Yet one Indian did become socially conservative and regressive on account of their influence. And each Indian we lose to fundamentalism is a massive loss to our society.

5. You also think that I am in favour of a ban of interaction with Pakistanis. That is far from what I want. My presence here in itself should show you. Understanding Pakistan and engaging with Pakistan is of paramount importance to India, for without it, we cannot achieve peace and increasing prosperity.
What I have said for Indians to consider is that we should limit the visas given to common Pakistanis till Pakistan is actually able to win the war against extremism. When I say extremism, I do not mean terrorism, but the seed of hate planted by Zia in your society. And without a doubt there are increasing number of Pakistani's who are speaking out against this extremism in Pakistan. This is an undeniable fact - 5-7 years back, there were not half as many who did. So there is a churn and change underway in Pakistan.

I value your opinion and would like your take on point 5. Icarus, Bang Galore among few others disagree on the effectiveness of this approach, but at the very least the idea was discussed. And in the end, is this not a place to discuss ideas, regardless of their radical or simple origin.

Spot on! I just do not know what to make of him sometimes. He can be such a friendly person and then come up with shockers like this.

Shock value has its use at times. Between the intermittent trolling some brilliant views were garnered on the discussion from both viewpoints. If you do get the time, read the entire thread to get my and the threads collective chain of thought.
I do think that my first post was strong, meant to elicit opinions and critical thought instead of being ignored. That was agreeably a mistake.

He just seems disturbed about ISIS propaganda and possible Pakistani input - totally ignoring that peace constituency is pretty strong actually.

Undoubtedly, for otherwise the liberalization of trade could not have happened.
My question to you is thus:
Is giving more visas and increasing people-to-people contacts contribute anything other than a marginal effort towards the goal of peace? For the real difference is made at the elite level - GoP elites and GoI elites.

And secondly, does it or does it not impose a social cost?

 

[Contrarian]

It seems contrarian has a blindspot when it comes to Pakistanis.

As witnessed in Senior cafe he does make some awesome, knowledgeable posts

Not a blindspot, but putting a strong and radical opinion deliberately.

 

[That Guy]

In this aspect, I would say we have to learn from the example of Pakistani's.

They opened the door to radicalization with the wahabis and allowed them to affect the society which they never knew could become so destructive one day. An ideology could become so damaging.

Should we play with the same fire? Or be safer at the risk of being radical?

I am being xenophobic so that we can get a rightist view as well in addition to the constant leftist side all Indians are born with.

By your very logic, Pakistan (in fact the world) should stop the flow of Indians, because they might bring the rape mindset to their country. See the problem with your train of thought?

There is no excuse that can justify xenophobia, none at all.

 

[Contrarian]

By your very logic, Pakistan (in fact the world) should stop the flow of Indians, because they might bring the rape mindset to their country. See the problem with your train of thought?

There is no excuse that can justify xenophobia, none at all.

Ad-hominems from you. I expected better.

The developed countries of the world are already massively tightening the influx of immigrants to their country and India forms a large number of those immigrants in many places. So yes, reduction in the flow of Indians is already happening.

And the reason its happening is that the immigrants are causing problems in their countries - that ranges from culture to crime and everything in between.

The second issue, the visa tightening process of Developed countries is more for some countries and lesser for some others. Why is it so?
Its because citizens of some countries cause more social problems than those from other countries and why the Developed countries are trying to limit the exposure of their population to these people

Example - It is easier for a Briton to get a US visa but relatively far harder for an Indian. It is easier for an Indian to get a US visa and relatively harder for a Pakistani. It is easier for a Pakistani to get a US visa and relatively harder for an Iraqi.

But as per you - all this is xenophobia. And what I suggested, limiting(not eliminating) visas given to Pakistan is xenophobia right?