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Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

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I really cannot understand you solomon. You have turned a blind eye to the glaring fact that davis committed pre-meditated murder -
I strongly doubt that's the case, since the initial police report said it was self-defense. The police cover-up claiming "murder" came later.

Now what you are saying about davis instituting a suit against us is the biggest joke I have ever heard.
No joke. Wrongful imprisonment is a serious matter, especially to Mr. Davis. Eventually he or his estate will be able to seize Pakistani government property in the U.S. to meet a court-ordered settlement - and the longer Davis is in prison, the more property that will cost Pakistan.

If you think America can get away with murdering people in Pakistan, then you should all pack up and leave Pakistan. And good riddance too.
So when the next flood, earthquake, or Taliban army strikes Pakistan what will you do? Keep us Americans away, condemning millions of your countrymen to death or oppression?

Do you really think that we are going to allow America to make a mockery out of our justice system?
Get with the program, dude: diplomatic immunity IS part of your justice system!

Also now the case to be run on davis should be one of a spy and not that of a consulate.
Because what you really want is the satisfaction of killing an American, right? I suppose any American would do. Should I stop by and knock on your door? Will that satisfy your blood lust?
 
Under the terms of the treaties Pakistan signed, diplomats with immunity are not subject to the jurisdiction of courts in Pakistan. All you can do to a diplomat who violates procedure is expel him.

Show me just where in the Vienna convention it is written "That even if a diplomat commits cold blooded murder, he will not charged for it"?

Oh and our contention now is that he is actually a spy. A lot of facts corroborate on that point. So he should be tried as such.

And stop harping on "Vienna Convention , Vienna Convention" like a broken record.
Hey did I say HAARP or did I say HAARP.

And believe me that is another story, which I am willing to discuss.
the 9/11 fiasco did not fool anyone either.
Oh and I actually saw the 747 crash on the Pentagon too. The plane must have lost its engines on the way.
And by the way have a look at the "PENTALAWN" after the crash.

You can't fool all of the people all of the time. Jews knew about it before the crash. You can't turn the plane travelling at the speed of 550 km.
 
Show me just where in the Vienna convention it is written "That even if a diplomat commits cold blooded murder, he will not charged for it"? Oh and our contention now is that he is actually a spy -
Do your own homework, Charlie. I've had enough of helping everyone for tonight.

Oh and I actually saw the 747 crash on the Pentagon too. The plane must have lost its engines on the way -
And if you're doing this just for fun why should I respond to you at all.
 
Blood money may help release US diplomat in Lahore

Jonaid Iqbal in Islamabad

Raymond Davis, the American charged by the Punjab Police with premeditated murder of two Pakistani citizens at Lahore earlier this month appears to be an important person in the US to have drawn the sympathy of Secretary of State Hilary Clinton. She requested the Pakistan Government to set him free because he enjoyed diplomatic immunity. He even had President Barack Hussein Obama to speak for him. The US President asked Pakistan to release Davis because he cannot be tried on the strength of 1961 Vienna diplomatic rules.
Senator John Kerry came to Pakistan especially for him last Monday. Some commentators said that the Senator had come with the hope that he would get the man released and bring back Raymond Davis on the same plane with him. This did not happen. The Senator returned last Wednesday alone.
Senator Kerry is viewed here as a friend and the author of Kerry-Luger Bill which helped out Pakistan with $ 7.5 billion package - $1.5 each year for five years for Pakistani civil administration. Some of that money has been held over quite often and the United States explains it as audit problem.
From the premises of the U.S. Consulate General at Lahore Senator Kerry gave a news conference at Lahore, saying he has come on a day when this country as well as the Muslim world was celebrating the birth anniversary of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) the last Prophet of Allah Almighty on earth, and since the Prophet was so compassionate and merciful he asked for humane treatment for Raymond who was in jail in Pakistan awaiting trial by the courts. Since he had come on a mission he repeated the usual argument about the diplomatic status of the man concerned. He also assured Pakistanis that if Raymond is released he will be tried in the United States. He even regretted the incident and sympathized with the bereaved family
Meanwhile, in the Raymond Davis issue, some moves are being made to get Raymond Davis out of the jam. Last Wednesday night a cleric and a newspaper editor appeared on the state TV and they suggested a way out - in the form of blood money - which if accepted by the family of those killed, could be the solution.
In fact Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani had also mentioned the subject in his speech at the Eid-e- Miladun Nabi conference last Wednesday. He thought out aloud that if the families (of those killed) accepted the idea it might lead to a solution. Information Minister Firdaus Ashiq Awan talking to the media also brought this up saying the government would think of other things but only after the court gives its decision on the case. At the same time he also said that he had received some kind words which he hoped would be acted upon soon.
Meanwhile, the impression ones gets from informed quarters is that Senator Kerry was clearly informed that the diplomatic status of Davis could not be established from documents at the Pakistan foreign office. Hence the US Embassy must await the decision that local courts make in this country and that adherence to and respect of courts is also mentioned as term of reference in the diplomatic texts. The matter is in a court of law and sub-judice, and therefore all concerned should await the court's decision.
 
The people he killed were Pakistanis. That in itself is a crime.

You people have brought the war in Afghanistan at the doorstep of Pakistan, ruined our economy in a 100 different ways.

You mean also that he can be made to stand on trial in an American court. How will the persons witness to the murders attend the court? No, he should be tried in Pakistan and made to pay with his own blood.
 
I strongly doubt that's the case, since the initial police report said it was self-defense. The police cover-up claiming "murder" came later.

No joke. Wrongful imprisonment is a serious matter, especially to Mr. Davis. Eventually he or his estate will be able to seize Pakistani government property in the U.S. to meet a court-ordered settlement - and the longer Davis is in prison, the more property that will cost Pakistan.

So when the next flood, earthquake, or Taliban army strikes Pakistan what will you do? Keep us Americans away, condemning millions of your countrymen to death or oppression?

Get with the program, dude: diplomatic immunity IS part of your justice system!

Because what you really want is the satisfaction of killing an American, right? I suppose any American would do. Should I stop by and knock on your door? Will that satisfy your blood lust?


Right now I think that Pakistan should be confiscating America's property for spying on our country, and conducting terrorist activities in our cities.

If you think that your ambassadors are not safe in Pakistan and that they should hire private contractors who can run roughshod over anything which comes in their way, you are definitely wrong.
If they feel that they are not protected properly, then they should leave. Period. No ifs and buts.

Or ask the Pakistan Govt to give them special protection.
 
Do your own homework, Charlie. I've had enough of helping everyone for tonight.

And if you're doing this just for fun why should I respond to you at all.

the point is we will bring you to your knee like we did when we stopped your supply .........................beside ramind does not has any immunity while investigating he accepted that he is not ambassador ...... and where on the earth you read that initial report given by punjab police is self defense
 
LHC: Action to be taken against driver, who crushed Abadul Rahman

The Lahore High Court has ordered to take strict action against the driver and the car which crushed Abadul Rahman to death.

The chief justice Lahore high court received a letter by Asad Mazoor Butt, representing Ijaz Rahman. The lawyer stated that although the police have registered a case against the driver, the police with the help of the Punjab Government have not been able to seize the vehicle involved in the accident and nor have they been able to arrest the driver.

According to the letter, the police have not even recording the statement of Ijaz Rahman, brother of the victim Abadul Rahman who was crushed to death by the American consulate car.

The chief justice Lahore high court ordered the Punjab government to arrest the driver and seize the vehicle involved in the accident. The court has also ordered the police to record the statement of the victim’s brother, Ijaz Rahman.
 
Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions

A court in Pakistan has delayed a hearing to decide whether an American who shot dead two men in Lahore last month has diplomatic immunity. The arrest of Raymond Davis has severely damaged relations between the countries. Much of the detail in the case remains unclear - the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan looks at some of the unanswered questions.

Is Raymond Davis a diplomat?

If you are thinking of a suavely dressed man in a three-piece suit who holds meetings with local officials to further or broaden his country's agenda, you would be wrong. Mr Davis was definitely not employed for his diplomatic skills - he is more a "hands-on" person, working in what the US embassy says is its "administrative and technical affairs section". Reports from the US say he is a former special forces soldier who left the military in 2003 and is working for the US embassy in Pakistan. As such, the US insists he is covered by the Vienna Convention which guarantees immunity from prosecution for all diplomatic staff.

Could he be a spy?

Many Pakistanis believe he is - there seem few other credible explanations as to why he was going around Lahore with a Glock pistol in a car with local number plates without informing local authorities. It is a requirement for embassy staff - especially those from Western embassies - to inform local police of their movements, simply because they are prime targets for militants in Pakistan. Mr Davis's department in the US embassy is widely seen in Pakistan as a cover for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operations. Mr Davis himself said he was a consultant employed by the US government. Researchers in the US say that since leaving the military, Mr Davis worked for a security firm called Hyperion LLC. But subsequent investigations by the US media have now shown that Hyperion exists only as a website. The offices that the company says it has in Orlando have been vacant for several years and the numbers on its website are unlisted.

Can Mr Davis be convicted for the murders?

Maybe. It all depends on how eager the Pakistani authorities are to punish him. The fact that he is possibly a spy does not mean he is not covered by diplomatic immunity. It is common practice for intelligence services across the world to send operatives under the cover of assignments to embassies. Both Pakistani and US "diplomats" have been caught in such situations - and every time have been asked to leave the host country immediately with no possibility of a return. That is the maximum punishment that has been levied in the overwhelming majority of cases in countries which have signed the Vienna Convention. However, in some countries there are exceptions for serious offences committed, such as murder. Pakistan is one of those countries. The matter is now in the hands of the judiciary. But it is important to remember that Mr Davis has been charged with murder - the maximum sentence here is the death penalty.

Should Mr Davis have been carrying a gun?

Legally speaking, only Pakistani citizens with licences issued by the interior ministry are allowed to carry arms. No foreigner is allowed to carry arms, except soldiers or guards within the premises of an embassy. Both Pakistani nationals and foreigners caught carrying arms can be charged under a Pakistani criminal law which stipulates a jail term of six months to two years in addition to a fine. Mr Davis has also been charged under this law.

Was he acting in self-defence?

That was the initial plea made by Mr Davis and the US embassy. However, subsequent investigations by the police, forensic labs and the local and international media suggest that the two men were driving away from Mr Davis when they were shot. In February Lahore's police chief said that Mr Davis was guilty of "cold-blooded murder" - he said that no fingerprints had been uncovered on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men. Furthermore he said that tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazines of their guns, not the chambers, suggesting they weren't about to shoot him. On the face of it, this leaves Mr Davis's claim that they were robbers - with one even apparently cocking a gun at his head - looking very thin. In addition, police say ballistics evidence shows that the pair were shot in the back - which again suggests they were moving away from Mr Davis, rather than about to attack him.

Who were the Pakistanis that Mr Davis shot?

In his initial statement, Mr Davis said they were robbers who were trying to steal his valuables. He and the US embassy have maintained this story. However, the men have no criminal records as such. Both have been identified as residents of Lahore by the police. The pair were carrying licensed pistols - a fact which led many to believe they might indeed have been robbers. However, security sources in Lahore say that they were part-time or low-level operatives for the local intelligence services. Although reports are sketchy about what they were doing in relation to Mr Davis, security officials believe it could be the case of a surveillance operation gone horribly wrong. Pakistani intelligence services routinely tail and monitor all embassy staff, Western or otherwise.

What about the second car and its victim?

A side event to the main drama concerning Mr Davis was the fact a third man was also killed during the incident. He was an innocent bystander run over by a US embassy vehicle, which was initially said to have arrived to rescue Mr Davis. The fact that an embassy vehicle was able to get to the spot so quickly was a source of astonishment to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the geography of Lahore. Given the incident was over within minutes, it seems incredible that anyone could negotiate the 12km (7.4-mile) 40-minute drive in peak traffic in less than five minutes. But subsequent investigations have now shown that the second car - a Toyota Landcruiser - was with Mr Davis at the time of the incident. In fact, according to eyewitnesses, Mr Davis was leading and clearing the way for the Toyota when the incident took place. In the light of what happened afterwards, it seems Mr Davis was in "protective mode" and opened fire to "secure" whoever or whatever was in the Toyota - the interior of this vehicle was not visible as its windows were tinted. It is evident in local TV footage that the second vehicle is going away from Mr Davis at the time of the incident. As it disappears into the dust, Mr Davis calmly pulls over and gives himself up. Pakistani authorities have asked for the Landcruiser and its driver to be handed over - a request with which the US has yet to comply.

What about behind-the-scenes negotiations?

As well as public pressure, US officials have also privately warned Pakistan's government of far-reaching and severe consequences if Mr Davis is convicted. Unnamed US officials have also used the media to issue veiled warnings to Pakistan that diplomatic ties could be cut and all aid stopped. Despite Islamabad's public stance on Mr Davis, Pakistani officials are said to have privately assured Washington that he will eventually be released. However, public pressure means that at the moment this could lead to a massive anti-government backlash. Pakistan's Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has hinted that blood money could be paid to the families of the two men Mr Davis admits shooting, which could enable his release. There is speculation that US officials may try to establish contacts with the families in this regard. However, it is not clear that Mr Davis has been charged under laws which would allow blood money to be paid.


BBC News - Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions


This is a very good post. The best I have seen and I would advise all readers to read this up.

So davis was / is actually a mercenary. No place for mercenaries in Pakistan.

So now we should be looking for the people in the other car. They should be expelled from Pakistan after paying blood money .
Not davis, no he should be tried here.

end of story
 
Same could be said to you. You can also man up and tell your thoughts to the parents of the victims of Raymond's shooting.

"SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside."

Yes and the character of Americans can be well discussed, if you know what I mean.

I agree with you that 'a' bacteria is part of a larger family i.e. social behaviour of a nation reflects the character--.

Can I point some guns at you and ask you some questions of charismatic society i.e. America? The point is, as it was, there is a line between up roaring because of a social problem and a problem which is national and international.

The case of Ann Coulter, is an internal issue of the U.S, her social acceptance but a Pakistani American--maybe a diplomat, killing an accused on American streets is another issue. Moreover, the reaction was intense from the public because Pakistanis DO NOT like Amrikans.

Hi,

Before I offer my condolence to that family, after I had recieved the info that the two guys were of a suspectable character, I would have searched the house first and foremost of both the men. Secondly---I would have talked to the people in the neighbourhood about the them.

Now the talk is spun about a pak diplomat doing something like that in the u s----well truth be told---the u s won't give a rat's ar-se and throw the diplomat in the jail and specially one from pakistan---.

Righht now---the u s is stuck between a rock and a hard place---it circle of influence is shrinking at an extremely rapid pace---just a few days ago after losing tunisia---it lost egypt---a major major player in the middle east---yemen---and libya and now in bahrain there are issues---. They are ready to leave iraq---but then what is happening in pakistan is something totally diffetrent.

If they lose in pakistan and can't get the release of Davis---the game plan of the u s foreign services will change world wide. Every other place---they have gotten out wihtout even a slap on the wrist and now they are being brought down by a country like pakistan-----pakistan and pakistani courts are in the process of setting up a precedence and if it happens---things are going to change---for that reason Obama and his staff came out aswinging----I guess he misjudged the pakistani reaction----come hiondsight----he realizes now that quiet diplomacy would have done better in the first place----but damage is done---all these congressmen shouting about sanctions and stopping aid to pakistan---deja vu---. We have been there---now haven't we.

If pakistan has come this far---then I guess they can go the rest of the way----some drastic had to happen to give the character of the nation some strength---some backbone---.

I would say one thing for sure----Hamid Karzai is the biggest fan of pakistanis as of today----.
 
Mr. Davis was the victum of a failed robbery, of a crime. He did not go out to randomly get after anyone. Let's not post false statements to try to stir up hatred falsely.

Sir,

I had hoped that you would get it by now---Davis is not in jail for what he committed---he is paying the price of all the innocent muslims killed by blackwater---air force pilots who bombed the wedding parties---air force pilots who just wanted to drop their bombs on a target---all the innocent killed by drone attacks---. All these atrocities that have been committed against the innocent---Davis is in jail for that.

This man is going to pay for someone's else's deeds. I mean to say---if it wasn't for that pent up anger----Davis would have been long gone----family would have settled for whatever and pakistanis would have praised him for doing what they could not do.
 
Davis case: LHC orders arrest of accused in Ibad’s killing

LAHORE: The Lahore High Court (LHC) on Friday ordered provincial authorities to arrest the accused involved in the death of Ibadur Rehman, a citizen who was killed when a US consulate car sent to assist Raymond Davis knocked him down on January 27 in Lahore, DawnNews reported.

Raymond Davis shot dead two Pakistani men at a busy traffic junction in the city. He said he shot the men in self-defence, fearing they were about to rob him. Soon after, Ibadur Rehman was run over by a vehicle from the US consulate in Lahore that was coming to Davis’ assistance.

A petition in this regard was filed on Thursday by Ibadur Rehman’s brother Mohammad Aijazur Rehman.

Subsequently, on Friday, LHC Chief Justice Ejaz Ahmed Chaudhry directed the authorities to conclude the investigations on Ibad’s killing.

The court further directed the Punjab government to recover the car that knocked Ibad down and record the witnesses’ statements.

Davis case: LHC orders arrest of accused in Ibad’s killing | Pakistan | DAWN.COM
 
Character of people in particular region can't be change and it remains same even after hundreds of years but a little/minor change, we have our own history & style of living and others have their own. you have to put them in their own places. Nobody has right to judge second nation, its totally unfair and without logic.

It is common practice that character of nation get change in different scenario over internal and external issues. Not only in Pakistan but almost in every country.
Legal systems are designed according to constitution & base on ground facts, who will dig it but only as it requires. Other nations have also same problem but may be we could dig out better in their legal system then they will dig in our. Leave it just think a general phenomena that nobody can stop people to criticize. Let them criticize. We have to do what we want.
No any law or constitution present in the world without defects or black holes. So which world and which nations?

Just open world crime statistics, evaluate where you got rank and what rank got about whom we are talking about.
A domestic pistol is useless on border fight, so for border fight there is Machine gun.

Davis case can't link with internal legal situations.

Sir,

That is a blanket statement and is not true---I was a teenager when Ayub was in power----and I remember that pakistani were a men of different character----then I saw Bhutto come in power----I saw the integrity and the honor of the pakistani started to go side ways---previously the criminals were looked down upon and kept to themselevs----now with Bhutto the character of the nation was being torn apart----when Zia came to power---that disgusting man spread so much hatred amonsgt the pakistani masses that there is no going back---during that time Musharraf stopped the punishment for criminals---the whip lashing---Benazir---Nawaz---Benazir---Nawaz and co then tore up the rest of it----. The last bit of the character that we had remaining was ditched by Musharraf again by not pursuing the criminals and not providing justice to the weak and the poor.

Of them all---Musharraf was the weakest when it came to law and order situation---he was the general who had no ballz to provide justice---he was a good man otherwise---did lots of good stuff for the country---but he took the character part away---because he could not bear to see physical punishement endowed upn the criminals. This is the short version---we can go in detail.
 
184804_127393523999688_100001871230031_191873_2582101_n.jpg
 
Senator John Kerry leaves Pakistan



Obama should come down himself too, once he gets to talk to the hand too... Things in Pakistan will change for the good. The momentum is perfect to break free of the shackles America has tied us in.

I don't think that raymond is a diplomat . And so what if he is?
He was caught carrying weapons , a GPS satellite tracking device, pictures of Pakistani army sensitive installations, and other sensitive material? Why was he making phone calls to Waziristan on the Pak-Afghan border when he was in the most eastern city of Pakistan near the Pakistan-India border (as Lahore police discovered from his cell phone).

The above mentioned fact prove without a shadow of doubt that R. davis was actually a spy. Hence he should be tried as such too.
No spy of any country can be allowed diplomatic immunity in any way at all.

Spies are usually executed, which should not be a problem in Raymond's case because he has already killed 2 persons and also used excessive force.
One report says that he got out of the car and shot one of the men again too.

On the minimum raymond should get exactly what he dishes out.

Whatever happened to:

ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

(the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).

The prosecution builds the case to prove guilt. It is NOT the defendant who has to prove his/her innocence.

What is your problem, it is beyond a doubt that he pulled the trigger and killed two men. Already a critical fact of the case has been established.


The Americans are not even pursuing an angle of self defence, they are trying to get him off completely by saying he had diplomatic immunity. Nonetheless, your point makes no sense, if he was being tired then I believe the prosecution need to prove that it was cold blooded murder, and not self defence.

And when you look at how he went about a murder, and what was in his position then it looks clearly like cold blooded murder.


Vcheng please remove your flag again thanks
 
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