Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[JayAtl]

Please read my posts. And don't confuse the Sharia court with the Civil/Criminal courts in Pakistan. Please leave your pathetic mindset out of this thread.

How is my mind pathetic when you stated you had English common law judicial system. I figured that's the system that as recent as today , was it? is indicting Ms, Sherry over blasphemy. But- let's not debate that portion anymore. just the below:
you chose to side step 99% of the post. does your prosecutor have to prove a crime took place? does he have to prove it took place beyond a reasonable doubt? if the answer is Yes: then inherently it means - burden is on the prosecution.

This case you cite above:"Or we can consider R v Lindsay (2005) AER (D) 349 (for reasonable force)":


Again it was the burden of the prosecution to prove that the defendant went from self defense to "excessive force". BUT again the burden was on the prosecution to prove that " excessive force"

 

[RescueRanger]

How is my mind pathetic when you sated you had English common law judicial system.

anyways you chose to side step 99% of the post. does your prosecutor have to prove a crime took place? does he have to prove it took place beyond a reasonable doubt?

1. You clearly put a bellow the belt remark of how people are hung for blasphemy in civil/criminal courts (which actually falls under the remit of the Federal Shariat Court).
2.

you had English common law judicial system.

: The legal system is derived from English common law and is based on the much-amended 1973 constitution and Islamic law (sharia). The Supreme Court, provincial high courts, and other courts have jurisdiction over criminal and civil issues. The president appoints the Supreme Court’s chief justice and formally approves other Supreme Court justices as well as provincial high court judges on the advice of the chief justice. The Supreme Court has original, appellate, and advisory jurisdiction, and high courts have original and appellate jurisdiction.

does your prosecutor have to prove a crime took place? does he have to prove it took place beyond a reasonable doubt?

Please read my posts i am not in the business of repeating myself, and go ahead and read the cases i have cited. Seek and you shall find.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

he maybe no ordinary man - but your EX FM was known to obfuscate the truth many times. Btw, what does that make your current FM? who agrees that the guy has full diplomatic immunity?

Or are you saying ONLY if they agree with you they become and I quote you " a God Dam FM not an ordinary Pakistani"

What truth did Qureshi 'obfuscate many times'?

And who is the current Foreign Minister that you are quoting as having confirmed Davis's blanket immunity?

 

[RescueRanger]

another additional district and sessions judge sought comments from the Lytton Road Police SHO on a petition seeking addition of section 7 of the Ant-Terrorism Act to the double-murder FIR No 47/2011 registered against Davis under section 302.

Magistrate orders 14-day remand Court orders Davis`s name on ECL | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

This is very interesting...

According to Pakistan ATA:

"7. Punishment for terrorist act -- Whoever commits a terrorist act,--

(i) referred to in paragraph (a) of section 6, shall--

(a) if such act has resulted in the death of any person be punished with death; and

(b) in any other case, be punishable with imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than seven years but may extend to life imprisonment, and shall also be liable to fine; and

 

[JayAtl]

1. You clearly put a bellow the belt remark of how people are hung for blasphemy in civil/criminal courts (which actually falls under the remit of the Federal Shariat Court).
2.
: The legal system is derived from English common law and is based on the much-amended 1973 constitution and Islamic law (sharia). The Supreme Court, provincial high courts, and other courts have jurisdiction over criminal and civil issues. The president appoints the Supreme Court’s chief justice and formally approves other Supreme Court justices as well as provincial high court judges on the advice of the chief justice. The Supreme Court has original, appellate, and advisory jurisdiction, and high courts have original and appellate jurisdiction.



Please read my posts i am not in the business of repeating myself, and go ahead and read the cases i have cited. Seek and you shall find.

First, I honestly was not aware that there was another subset court that could hand out death sentences and it hold the same girth or supersede your ' official judicial system'. I was merely going on what you said and was in no mood to take any shots at you.

This case you cite above:"Or we can consider R v Lindsay (2005) AER (D) 349 (for reasonable force)":


Again it was the burden of the prosecution to prove that the defendant went from self defense to "excessive force". BUT again the burden was on the prosecution to prove that " excessive force" .

bottom line: If you have a different flavor of the judicial law, that's A-okay. I'm not debating your internal system. the argument started when you guys said, effectively- every one brought in front of the court is presumed guilty from the get go. And that's not true of English common laws nor American laws.

 

[JayAtl]

What truth did Qureshi 'obfuscate many times'?

And who is the current Foreign Minister that you are quoting as having confirmed Davis's blanket immunity?

what diplomatic obfuscation? his entire foreign policy portfolio vis-a-vis his indian claims ignored by the world. personally, the gent was too inarticulate and almost amateurish from my perspective. He had this uncanny ability to insult in public, his counter parts after he invited them to Pakistan, and in midst of a diplomatic negotiation.

I thought the new lady in charge of Foreign Policy effectively came out stating that quershi was looking out for his own interest and this was along with many top PPP leaders slamming qureshi? I may have misunderstood.

BTW- name me your EX FM's success stories in foreign policy_ from the time he took over? what did he accomplish for pakistan? I have asked this question a couple of times and nobody has taken me up on it.

 

[RescueRanger]

First, I honestly was not aware that there was another subset court that could hand out death sentences and it hold the same girth or supersede your ' official judicial system'. I was merely going on what you said and was in no mood to take any shots at you.

This case you cite above:"Or we can consider R v Lindsay (2005) AER (D) 349 (for reasonable force)":


Again it was the burden of the prosecution to prove that the defendant went from self defense to "excessive force". BUT again the burden was on the prosecution to prove that " excessive force" .

bottom line: If ou have a different flavor of the judicial law, that's A-okay. I'm not debating your internal system. the argument started when you guys said, effectively- every one brought in front of the court is presumed guilty from the get go. And thats not true of English common laws . nor American laws.

That's okay, for an outside observer the Pakistani legal system can be a very complex system to try and understand. I am not arguing about the burden of proof resting on the prosecution, i agree it dose. However i am talking about the chain of causation, balance of probabilities. For example:

stipulates that where a defendant relies on some "exception, exemption, proviso, excuse or qualification" in his defence, the legal burden of proof as to that exception falls on the defendant, though only on the balance of probabilities. For example, a person charged with being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle can raise the defence that there was no likelihood of his driving while drunk.[7] The prosecution have the legal burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant exceeded the legal limit of alcohol and was in control of a motor vehicle. Possession of the keys is usually sufficient to prove control, even if the defendant is not in the vehicle and is perhaps in a nearby bar. That being proved, the defendant has the legal burden of proof on the balance of probabilities that he was not likely to drive.

Anyway it is very interesting that a petition has been submited to the session judge to apply section 7 of the ATA in addition to the double murder.

If this petition is accepted, which i very much doubt, then what we will have is a Terrorism cases lodged against davis, which will complicate things further.

 

[American Eagle]

This court stuff is all a waste of words. Mr. Davis has full Diplomtic Immunity and the court has ordered two things:

1. Court has Ordered the FO to present and answer the single question...does Mr. Davis in the eyes of the FO have Diplomatic Immunity.

2. Instead of answering the court's Order the FO issued it's opinion letter in the affirmative, Davis does have total Diplomatic Immunity, to the Pakistani Interior Ministry, not to the court???

3. Meanwhile the Court has extended Davis remand in custody for a new 14 day period of time.

International Law is at issue here, Diplomatic Immunity, and the President of the United States had told "the world" in his press conference that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and to release him into US custody immeidately without further delay.



3.

 

[Pak_Sher]

When a Jordanian diplomat ran over and killed a girl in D.C, US asked Jordan to lift the diplomatic immunity since a human was dead. Now as per US principal shouldn't Pakistan do the same thing?

Jordan did lift the diplomatic immunity and the diplomat got a 15 year sentence. So why Mr. Davis has to go free?

 

[RescueRanger]

This court stuff is all a waste of words. Mr. Davis has full Diplomtic Immunity and the court has ordered two things:

1. Court has Ordered the FO to present and answer the single question...does Mr. Davis in the eyes of the FO have Diplomatic Immunity.

2. Instead of answering the court's Order the FO issued it's opinion letter in the affirmative, Davis does have total Diplomatic Immunity, to the Pakistani Interior Ministry, not to the court???

3. Meanwhile the Court has extended Davis remand in custody for a new 14 day period of time.

International Law is at issue here, Diplomatic Immunity, and the President of the United States had told "the world" in his press conference that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and to release him into US custody immeidately without further delay.



3.

When we were trained by the instructors from the US, i remember reading a wonderful motto on one of the emblems on the slides, it simply read:
"Liberty and Justice for All". I ask you sir, why do you deny the Pakistani people that same right to "justice"... Let this run it's course, if indeed he has diplomatic immunity, then he will be set free in due time.

He is not under duress, nor is he being treated the way a criminal would be treated in Pakistan ( this much i can assure you):


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International Law is at issue here, Diplomatic Immunity, and the President of the United States had told "the world" in his press conference that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity and to release him into US custody immeidately without further delay.

Hmm... but then why undermine our courts, why pressurize the judiciary using the executive? If indeed he is innocent, he will be let free ( all in due time of course).

 

[JayAtl]

When a Jordanian diplomat ran over and killed a girl in D.C, US asked Jordan to lift the diplomatic immunity since a human was dead. Now as per US principal shouldn't Pakistan do the same thing?

Jordan did lift the diplomatic immunity and the diplomat got a 15 year sentence. So why Mr. Davis has to go free?

The operative word was ' they asked' and he killed a girl driving drunk I believe? ... this guy davis =self defense case.

 

[Pak_Sher]

The operative word was ' they asked' and he killed a girl driving drunk I believe? ... this guy davis =self defense case.

Self Defense:

(01) Diplomats are suppose to obtain permission before going anywhere, which he did not obtain?

(02) He had fake care registration papers and fake license plates?

(03) He was carrying illegal firearms, where is the Vienna Convention on that?

(04) Why he withdrew a 6 figure amount in rupees before he reahced the inner city?

(05) Why he had 3 different sim cards under 3 differnt names, GPS devices, spying gadget?

Please do not act as the High Court Judge before you write your non-prudent comments. And one more thing he was working for the US Consulate and consulate employess do not have the same diplomatic immunity as embassey staffers.

Reagrding the Jordanian diplomat, drinking is legal, he killed a girl, man slaughter 15 years.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

what diplomatic obfuscation? his entire foreign policy portfolio vis-a-vis his indian claims ignored by the world. personally, the gent was too inarticulate and almost amateurish from my perspective. He had this uncanny ability to insult in public, his counter parts after he invited them to Pakistan, and in midst of a diplomatic negotiation.

The above includes no substantiation of your 'obfuscation of the truth many times' claims, not even one. It is merely your opinion on how he conducted Pakistan's foreign policy.

I thought the new lady in charge of Foreign Policy effectively came out stating that quershi was looking out for his own interest and this was along with many top PPP leaders slamming qureshi? I may have misunderstood.

The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (different from Foreign Minister) is Hina Rabbani Khar, who has not issued any statement on Davis's immunity AFAIK. Fauzia Wahab, a PPP legislator and PPP information secretary, made the immunity comments, which were rejected and denied by the Government.

BTW- name me your EX FM's success stories in foreign policy_ from the time he took over? what did he accomplish for pakistan? I have asked this question a couple of times and nobody has taken me up on it.

That is irrelevant to this thread and your claim of 'many obfuscations of the truth'.

 

[Pak_Sher]

Check JayAtl's posts, he is thanking Americans and thanking Pakistani posts, just to create more issues. Please be constructive so you can contribute to the PDF and not push your hidden Indian agenda.

 

[Solomon2]

The Pakistani press has in fact done an excellent job, by giving the public access to relevant documents, statements and interviews with concerned officials, from all sides.

Can you point out what Pakistani newspapers (not counting comments sections or anonymous letters) have advanced my arguments, specifically that (1) the diplomatic treaties are the highest law of the land, (2) that under full immunity Davis cannot be jailed or prosecuted for any reason, and that (3) even under "consular" immunity he can't be held in jail once the police on the scene had determined that no "grave crime" had been committed?

Pakistanis, not just here, but on the comments sections of the major English Pakistani newspapers, have pulled out and studied the text of the conventions governing diplomatic immunity for consulate workers, and pointed out how the GoP is in fact doing nothing illegal.

Remember, in any determination of truth one hears and evaluates arguments both pro and con.