Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story
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American Eagle
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Absolutely untrue. Before and after the Davis failed robbery people were blown up by terrorist suicide bombers, native Paksitanis, children in some cases, and those acts of killing their fellow Pakistanis are what I talked about in the beginning of this now very long Thread when I asked for comparisons then and there of if you are condoling the lost of the two robbers, whose families were and continue to be condoled despite false statements to the contrary, then were is the permanent, long term out cry against the Taliban and al Qaida who caused this whole long term war on terrorism ...where is the sympathy by names of all those blown away in numerous suicide bombings in just Lahore alone?
Where is the list of names of all the innocent Pakistanis their fellow countrymen turned terrorist killed off wrongly and unfairly?
This is simply a whipping boy attempt to blame all societies ills there on one American who was stuck up by two robbers who hade a bad choice of their second victum that day, as they had just successfully held up and robbed the two Pakistani gentlemen in the same neighborhood there in Lahore.
Where is the sustained, long term out cry agains the year to year 15% increase in crime in Lahore?
Where is the list of names of all the innocent Pakistanis their fellow countrymen turned terrorist killed off wrongly and unfairly?
This is simply a whipping boy attempt to blame all societies ills there on one American who was stuck up by two robbers who hade a bad choice of their second victum that day, as they had just successfully held up and robbed the two Pakistani gentlemen in the same neighborhood there in Lahore.
Where is the sustained, long term out cry agains the year to year 15% increase in crime in Lahore?
VCheng
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JayAtl
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Agreed and lets not forget the aid when floods happened . US 300 million, china 10 million.
Exactly why I am not responding to your rants!
no, it seems all you are good for on this thread is telling people "to calm down"
now i responded to your points about US "help" and you have remained quiet, i take it no response is forthcoming because there you have no retort
Awesome
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Davis's victims are innocent until proven guilty. Davis has murdered two people, the burden of proof is upon him to prove that he acted in self-defence. Let's cut the bull shall we, Davis was a spy, these guys were probably not innocent but some sort of informants or terrorists. Davis which carried multiple weapons, assassinated the two men.
The case is of murder, then its about who Davis is, and then finally whether or not it acted on the behest of the American state. The case is about terrorism and American state's hand in terrorist activities in Pakistan. If Davis is to walk, then the entire American mission in Pakistan has to leave since it has proven itself to be against Pakistani interests, where it would insist on carrying weapons, running Pakistanis over and not complying with local laws.
Why is a diplomat taking pictures of Pakistani defence installations? He is spying.
It's not just Raymond Davis on trial, the American state is on trial, because once his guilt is proven, not of murdering two people, but murdering them on the behest of the American state, then we'll know for certain about who is doing what all in Pakistan. Pakistanis are in no mood to put up with the flawed American plan that out country can be used as a magnet for terrorists. The American thinking has been to keep the terrorism bottled up in Pakistan so that it doesn't spill into the US. Whatever America is doing in Pakistan, it must stop.
VCheng
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Please also include shoring up the forex reserves and access to US markets for textiles to keep the economy working, and better if only there were more reliable energy supplies available for local factories.
err what you kidding me, this is more like the bare minimum payment for services rendered (i.e. support for a crazy "war")
you value the lives of pakistani's with something as meager as the above?
says a lot, please remove your flag.
VCheng
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Asim: That is absolutely WRONG. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The accused is PRESUMED INNOCENT until and unless proven guilty after DUE PROCESS.
you are confused.
he is already guilty of murder, of that there is no doubt.
as part of his defence he must somehow prove that he acted in self defence, that is not an automatic assumption.
American Eagle
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The below exact copied and pasted news story was in the Feb. 17, 2011 issue of the WALL STREET JOURNAL. You can directly look up the article and read it at: WSJ.com
This is what President Obama said, and he didn't ever say we let the Pakistani courts decide if he has Diplomatic Immunity or not.
.LAHORE, PakistanU.S. President Barack Obama called for Pakistan to release a government employee who killed two men last month, as Sen. John Kerry arrived here for talks aimed at ending the diplomatic standoff.
The man, Raymond Davis, has been in custody in Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city, since the incident on Jan. 27. The U.S. says he is covered by diplomatic immunity and should be released.
Mr. Obama weighed in on the row Tuesday, saying Pakistan must release Mr. Davis under its commitments as a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a pact from the 1960s that guarantees diplomats immunity from prosecution. "If it starts being fair game on our ambassadors around the world, including in dangerous places it means they can't do their job," Mr. Obama told a news conference. Senator John Kerry is pressing the case for the U.S. as he meets with Pakistani officials in an effort to secure immunity for American diplomat Raymond Davis. Video courtesy of Reuters.
.The comments escalated a diplomatic dispute over Mr. Davis's detention. Public anger over the shooting and demands for Mr. Davis's prosecution make it difficult for Pakistan's central governmentan ally of the U.S.to order his release.
A court in Lahore is expected to begin hearing a case Thursday on whether Mr. Davis has immunity from prosecution.
Mr. Kerry, at a news conference in Lahore, promised the U.S. Justice Department would conduct its own "thorough criminal investigation" if Pakistan were to release Mr. Davis.
"It is a strong belief of our government that this case does not belong in the court," Mr. Kerry said Tuesday. "And it does not belong in the court because this man has diplomatic immunity."
Mr. Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has made four trips to Pakistan in the past two years and was instrumental in co-writing in 2009 a five-year, $7.5 billion civilian aid package, part of a strategy to help counter Islamic radicalism in the country. Despite closer ties, many here remain wary of the U.S., which is viewed as building strategic alliances with Pakistan's traditional rivals, notably India.
Washington, too, has been disappointed with Pakistan for failing to clamp down on Taliban havens on its soil.
The incident involving Mr. Davis has added a further level of mistrust to the relationship.
The U.S. last week canceled a meeting scheduled for late February in Washington, involving Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the foreign ministers of Pakistan and Afghanistan, in protest against Mr. Davis's detention. Washington has also scaled back other routine bilateral contacts.
According to the U.S. version of events, Mr. Davis, 36 years old, opened fire on two armed men in self-defense after they attempted to stop his white Honda Civic car at a busy intersection in broad daylight. U.S. officials say the two men, who were on a motorbike, had earlier in the day robbed other people in the area.
The U.S. has said Mr. Davis is a "technical and administrative" staff of the U.S. Consulate in Lahore, but hasn't said what his role was or whether he was authorized to carry a weapon. The U.S. confirmed Mr. Davis's identity Friday, two weeks after Pakistani authorities released his name.
Lahore police officers say they recovered a number of effects from Mr. Davis's car after the incident, including two Glock pistols and more than 70 rounds of ammunition. Officials say they also found a metal detector, a latex face mask with a beard and headpiece, and a make-up kit.
A spokeswoman for the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad declined to comment on Mr. Davis's effects.
Pakistani officials appear to be angered by what they say was Mr. Davis's covert role in Pakistan. A senior official with Inter-Services Intelligence, the military's spy agency, said the organization was unaware of Mr. Davis. "Apparently he was working behind our backs," the official said.
The U.S. Embassy denied this and said it notified Pakistan's Foreign Ministry of Mr. Davis's arrival in the country in January 2010, which, the U.S. says, means he is covered by diplomatic immunity.
Senior Pakistani officials have made contradictory statements in recent weeks over whether, in their view, Mr. Davis is covered by immunity from prosecution.
Pakistani police investigating the incident have yet to formally charge Mr. Davis, but say they are treating the case as murder. If the high court finds Mr. Davis isn't covered by immunity, state prosecutors must bring his case to court by Feb. 25.
In Lahore's British-era town center, placards put up by an Islamist group show a photo of Mr. Davis's head with a hangman's noose superimposed around it.
Two Lahore police officers involved in the case say the two men who confronted Mr. Davis were likely armed due to a dispute with another family. One of the men's elder brothers had been killed in December in a row over a girl. They denied the men, who resided in Lahore, had earlier robbed others in the area.
Witnesses say the men were circling around Mr. Davis's car, which he was driving himself, according to the police officers.
What happened next is unclear. Mr. Davis fired nine bullets from inside the car, seven of which hit the men in various parts of their bodies. He got out of the car to photograph the dead men on his cellphone and then fled an angry crowd that was forming, the officers said. Police arrested him in his car a few miles from the scene.
Another vehicle from the consulate, which came to rescue Mr. Davis, ran over and killed a bystander. The driver of that car wasn't taken into custody and hasn't been identified.
Authorities had previously detained Mr. Davis for a few hours two years ago, the two police officers said.
In that incident, police stopped the car in which Mr. Davis was traveling in Lahore during a routine check in a posh part of town and found a number of weapons in the car, the officers said. But they let Mr. Davis go after orders from the central government, they added.
The U.S. Embassy spokeswoman said reports about this detention were "unsubstantiated."
Shahnawaz Khan contributed to this article.
This is what President Obama said, and he didn't ever say we let the Pakistani courts decide if he has Diplomatic Immunity or not.
.LAHORE, PakistanU.S. President Barack Obama called for Pakistan to release a government employee who killed two men last month, as Sen. John Kerry arrived here for talks aimed at ending the diplomatic standoff.
The man, Raymond Davis, has been in custody in Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city, since the incident on Jan. 27. The U.S. says he is covered by diplomatic immunity and should be released.
Mr. Obama weighed in on the row Tuesday, saying Pakistan must release Mr. Davis under its commitments as a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a pact from the 1960s that guarantees diplomats immunity from prosecution. "If it starts being fair game on our ambassadors around the world, including in dangerous places it means they can't do their job," Mr. Obama told a news conference. Senator John Kerry is pressing the case for the U.S. as he meets with Pakistani officials in an effort to secure immunity for American diplomat Raymond Davis. Video courtesy of Reuters.
.The comments escalated a diplomatic dispute over Mr. Davis's detention. Public anger over the shooting and demands for Mr. Davis's prosecution make it difficult for Pakistan's central governmentan ally of the U.S.to order his release.
A court in Lahore is expected to begin hearing a case Thursday on whether Mr. Davis has immunity from prosecution.
Mr. Kerry, at a news conference in Lahore, promised the U.S. Justice Department would conduct its own "thorough criminal investigation" if Pakistan were to release Mr. Davis.
"It is a strong belief of our government that this case does not belong in the court," Mr. Kerry said Tuesday. "And it does not belong in the court because this man has diplomatic immunity."
Mr. Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has made four trips to Pakistan in the past two years and was instrumental in co-writing in 2009 a five-year, $7.5 billion civilian aid package, part of a strategy to help counter Islamic radicalism in the country. Despite closer ties, many here remain wary of the U.S., which is viewed as building strategic alliances with Pakistan's traditional rivals, notably India.
Washington, too, has been disappointed with Pakistan for failing to clamp down on Taliban havens on its soil.
The incident involving Mr. Davis has added a further level of mistrust to the relationship.
The U.S. last week canceled a meeting scheduled for late February in Washington, involving Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the foreign ministers of Pakistan and Afghanistan, in protest against Mr. Davis's detention. Washington has also scaled back other routine bilateral contacts.
According to the U.S. version of events, Mr. Davis, 36 years old, opened fire on two armed men in self-defense after they attempted to stop his white Honda Civic car at a busy intersection in broad daylight. U.S. officials say the two men, who were on a motorbike, had earlier in the day robbed other people in the area.
The U.S. has said Mr. Davis is a "technical and administrative" staff of the U.S. Consulate in Lahore, but hasn't said what his role was or whether he was authorized to carry a weapon. The U.S. confirmed Mr. Davis's identity Friday, two weeks after Pakistani authorities released his name.
Lahore police officers say they recovered a number of effects from Mr. Davis's car after the incident, including two Glock pistols and more than 70 rounds of ammunition. Officials say they also found a metal detector, a latex face mask with a beard and headpiece, and a make-up kit.
A spokeswoman for the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad declined to comment on Mr. Davis's effects.
Pakistani officials appear to be angered by what they say was Mr. Davis's covert role in Pakistan. A senior official with Inter-Services Intelligence, the military's spy agency, said the organization was unaware of Mr. Davis. "Apparently he was working behind our backs," the official said.
The U.S. Embassy denied this and said it notified Pakistan's Foreign Ministry of Mr. Davis's arrival in the country in January 2010, which, the U.S. says, means he is covered by diplomatic immunity.
Senior Pakistani officials have made contradictory statements in recent weeks over whether, in their view, Mr. Davis is covered by immunity from prosecution.
Pakistani police investigating the incident have yet to formally charge Mr. Davis, but say they are treating the case as murder. If the high court finds Mr. Davis isn't covered by immunity, state prosecutors must bring his case to court by Feb. 25.
In Lahore's British-era town center, placards put up by an Islamist group show a photo of Mr. Davis's head with a hangman's noose superimposed around it.
Two Lahore police officers involved in the case say the two men who confronted Mr. Davis were likely armed due to a dispute with another family. One of the men's elder brothers had been killed in December in a row over a girl. They denied the men, who resided in Lahore, had earlier robbed others in the area.
Witnesses say the men were circling around Mr. Davis's car, which he was driving himself, according to the police officers.
What happened next is unclear. Mr. Davis fired nine bullets from inside the car, seven of which hit the men in various parts of their bodies. He got out of the car to photograph the dead men on his cellphone and then fled an angry crowd that was forming, the officers said. Police arrested him in his car a few miles from the scene.
Another vehicle from the consulate, which came to rescue Mr. Davis, ran over and killed a bystander. The driver of that car wasn't taken into custody and hasn't been identified.
Authorities had previously detained Mr. Davis for a few hours two years ago, the two police officers said.
In that incident, police stopped the car in which Mr. Davis was traveling in Lahore during a routine check in a posh part of town and found a number of weapons in the car, the officers said. But they let Mr. Davis go after orders from the central government, they added.
The U.S. Embassy spokeswoman said reports about this detention were "unsubstantiated."
Shahnawaz Khan contributed to this article.
pakdefender
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Carrying illegal firearms, spying and killing people is part of their 'job' ?!? Well then they better pack up and leave if that is the case and as far as Raymond Davis is concerned, he is not going any where
The case against him is getting stronger, Sen. Kerry went home today empty handed and the same day the court handed the American killer Raymond Davis a 14 day remand and the PPP govt has backed off saying that the courts will decide the killers fate.
Give it a rest old man, take your medicine, you will see this man being prosecuted and convicted in Pakistan
pakdefender
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and I might add the mozzang, where these killings took place , is no 'dangerous place' , mozzang is best know for kite flying , there are two places in Lahore that are famous for kite flying , one is mozzang the other is samnabad
Its very fishy that this guys was roaming around in mozzang area , armed and ready to kill.
Its very fishy that this guys was roaming around in mozzang area , armed and ready to kill.
@American Eagle you make few very good points indeed but it was not proved they were robbers it's yet to be proven initial police statement was not right and the police admitted it you are very right when you say inncoents pakistanis are killed by fellow countrymen and our crime rate but you have to admit it because of your contrite involvement in my countries affairs not blaming you for the crime rate but yes for a civil war like situation here
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