Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[Pak_Sher]

Can you point out what Pakistani newspapers (not counting comments sections or anonymous letters) have advanced my arguments, specifically that (1) the diplomatic treaties are the highest law of the land, (2) that under full immunity Davis cannot be jailed or prosecuted for any reason, and that (3) even under "consular" immunity he can't be held in jail once the police on the scene had determined that no "grave crime" had been committed?

Remember, in any determination of truth one hears and evaluates arguments both pro and con.

This is your opinion, back that up with facts or answer my questions in post# 3507 on this page.

 

[Solomon2]

(01) Diplomats are suppose to obtain permission before going anywhere, which he did not obtain?
(02) He had fake care registration papers and fake license plates?
(03) He was carrying illegal firearms, where is the Vienna Convention on that?
(04) Why he withdrew a 6 figure amount in rupees before he reahced the inner city?
(05) Why he had 3 different sim cards under 3 differnt names, GPS devices, spying gadget?

Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.

 

[Solomon2]

This is your opinion, back that up with facts -

What, exactly, is "just my opinion"?

 

[charlietophits]

No one in their right mind disregards deaths by violence.


This said, if you can read the most recent three or four days of postings therein you will find that the US Department of State, US Embassy inside Pakitan, did authorize and required Mr. Davis to carry fire arms in conjunction with his diplomatic job.

That closes your fire arms found in Mr. Davis car question out as far as I am concerned in that Mr. Davis was faced with armed bandits who in his view threatened his life, limb, and cash. Please remember that Mr. Davis had just goten in plain public view cash at a Paksitani bank ATM.

I, me only, think the two robbers cased Mr. Davis getting cash from the ATM, and knowing that most Westerners carry cell phones, looked forward to stealing both his cash and his cell phones.

.

The embassy authorized davis to carry firearms?. Is this a joke? The embassy authorized him but was this approved by the Pakistani officials? Or is this normal procedure also authorized in the Vienna convention ? You can't carry firearms in another country just because your embassy "authorized you to do so", or are you Americans now trying to make a joke out of Pakistan's system?

It has already been proved that those two guys were not robbers at all. At a signal they had stopped their bike in front of davis's car. And that is how he shot them. 4 fragmentation bullets in the back of 1 guy and 3 in the other. And people standing there say that he came out and fired on the guys lying on the road too to make sure that they were dead.

Please explain to me which sort of duty was davis doing that he had to come to Pakistan 9 times in the past year alone?

I think that davis should be thoroughly be investigated by our ISI. I am sure we will find a lot of other facts, which will tie up the "sensitive area pictures" which were found in the digital camera of davis.
America supported TTP and this is an open secret. Some one used to inform Baitullah Masud about the Pakistan Army's troop movements and that was how he was able to evade them.
I was watching CNN when the news came that Baitullah Masud had been killed in a drone attack. There was a lot of consternation at that time in America about this fact.
The actual fact is that####### was giving information to Masud and that was how he was able to evade our army . Very high sophisticated encryption devices were found with him, so much so that even though our army was able to intercept the transmission that he received, they were unable to decode them at all. So a chip was thrown at his place and the drone then bombed it
And even though Pakistan gave the location of Masud many times to America to bomb him, still America refused. If America supported TTP then its safe to say that they may also have been involved in the bombings in Lahore too, (which was claimed by TTP).

Davis is enjoying facility of an A class jail, eating Chinese food and abusing the jailers, and had the darence to even abuse the jailers for the azaan.

Don't tell me that diplomats are not screened for their mentality before being given such a task?

More later

 

[Pak_Sher]

Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.

May be time has come to change that. No more Blackwater covert oops under diplomatic cover.

 

[charlietophits]

Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.

It is quite clear to me that davis may have killed the two persons according to an agenda.

By what soloman has said it is also quite clear that raymond will not be tried in America.

But right now, keeping all other things aside, the disguise found in the car along with the digital camera with "sensitive pictures" are quite enough to label him as SPY.
So we don't need any Vienna Shevianna convention on that

End of story.

 

[Solomon2]

May be time has come to change that. No more Blackwater covert oops under diplomatic cover.

No more protection of U.S. diplomatic personnel either. (As explained earlier, the employment of specialist security contractors in high-risk Pakistan makes sense.) In any event the "proper" venue to change that is through multinational negotiations. That can't change the situation here and now.

What is going on now appears to be an illegal form of judicial advocacy - illegal because under the Vienna Conventions Pakistani courts don't have jurisdiction and can't even determine who has immunity and who does not. I can't find any justification in international law why, even if Davis has the limited immunity some Pakistanis claim he has, he can still be held in a Pakistani jail. No wonder there are reports that Davis himself is making a lot of noise and being unpleasant in prison: from his point of view he has 100% diplomatic immunity, thus any Pakistani who holds him in confinement is a criminal under Pakistan's own laws. He can't think that any of the Pakistanis he comes into contact with merit anything in the way of personal honor, can he?

Perhaps the next step for the U.S. is to facilitate a suit by Davis against Pakistan for wrongful imprisonment. Since Pakistan has junked the Vienna Conventions when it comes to Davis, in response he'll be able to sue without Pakistan enjoying sovereign immunity.

 

[Solomon2]

It is quite clear to me that davis may have killed the two persons according to an agenda.

Protecting one's self from robbery does not qualify as an agenda. If it is "quite clear to you" otherwise, share!

By what soloman has said it is also quite clear that raymond will not be tried in America.

I think the Pakistani government would have to actively pursue the matter for that to happen, or any proceeding will die from lack of evidence. It can be done.

But right now, keeping all other things aside, the disguise found in the car along with the digital camera with "sensitive pictures" are quite enough to label him as SPY. So we don't need any Vienna Shevianna convention on that

Nothing in the Vienna Conventions say that a diplomat surrenders his immunity if accused of spying or impersonating someone else. All that can be done is to expel him. There is nothing unusual about it.

 

[Pak_Sher]

There are thousands of Pakistani victims and handicapped people of drone attack waiting to sue the US as well, lets just not open the can of worms, because US may be liable for money equivalent of a US Yearly Budget.

If US belives in liberty and justic for all, then let Mr. Davis face the justice.

 

[Solomon2]

The embassy authorized davis to carry firearms?. Is this a joke? The embassy authorized him but was this approved by the Pakistani officials? Or is this normal procedure also authorized in the Vienna convention ? You can't carry firearms in another country just because your embassy "authorized you to do so", or are you Americans now trying to make a joke out of Pakistan's system? Please explain to me which sort of duty was davis doing that he had to come to Pakistan 9 times in the past year alone? Don't tell me that diplomats are not screened for their mentality before being given such a task?

Under the terms of the treaties Pakistan signed, diplomats with immunity are not subject to the jurisdiction of courts in Pakistan. All you can do to a diplomat who violates procedure is expel him.

 

[Solomon2]

There are thousands of Pakistani victims and handicapped people of drone attack waiting to sue the US as well, lets just not open the can of worms -

Sure, go ahead, in the U.S. you can try to sue anybody for anything.

If US belives in liberty and justic for all, then let Mr. Davis face the justice.

Yes, but the proper venue for that is an American court, not a Pakistani one.

 

[monitor]

Sure, go ahead, in the U.S. you can try to sue anybody for anything.

Yes, but the proper venue for that is an American court, not a Pakistani one.

he committed the crime in Pakistan so why not to trial him in Pakistani soil ? If the al kaida terrorist of afganistan can taken to guantamo bay for trial as they committed crime against american people, in the same way Pakistan should have the right to trial him in Pakistani soil .

 

[monitor]

Under the terms of the treaties Pakistan signed, diplomats with immunity are not subject to the jurisdiction of courts in Pakistan. All you can do to a diplomat who violates procedure is expel him.

No concrete prove is available that Davis was an diplomat .

 

[charlietophits]

No more protection of U.S. diplomatic personnel either. (As explained earlier, the employment of specialist security contractors in high-risk Pakistan makes sense.) In any event the "proper" venue to change that is through multinational negotiations. That can't change the situation here and now.

What is going on now appears to be an illegal form of judicial advocacy - illegal because under the Vienna Conventions Pakistani courts don't have jurisdiction and can't even determine who has immunity and who does not. I can't find any justification in international law why, even if Davis has the limited immunity some Pakistanis claim he has, he can still be held in a Pakistani jail. No wonder there are reports that Davis himself is making a lot of noise and being unpleasant in prison: from his point of view he has 100% diplomatic immunity, thus any Pakistani who holds him in confinement is a criminal under Pakistan's own laws. He can't think that any of the Pakistanis he comes into contact with merit anything in the way of personal honor, can he?

Perhaps the next step for the U.S. is to facilitate a suit by Davis against Pakistan for wrongful imprisonment. Since Pakistan has junked the Vienna Conventions when it comes to Davis, in response he'll be able to sue without Pakistan enjoying sovereign immunity.

I really cannot understand you solomon. You have turned a blind eye to the glaring fact that davis committed pre-meditated murder, and not an accidental killing like running over some pedestrian. If such a case had happened, then I am sure that the Govt of Pakistan would have pacified the family of the dead person, the American Embassy would have paid blood money, and the person would have been let go without much fanfare in the media about it.
The case here is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. HE SHOT TWO PERSONS!.

Now what you are saying about davis instituting a suit against us is the biggest joke I have ever heard.

If you think America can get away with murdering people in Pakistan, then you should all pack up and leave Pakistan. And good riddance too.

Do you really think that we are going to allow America to make a mockery out of our justice system? I think not.
Also now the case to be run on davis should be one of a spy and not that of a consulate.

 

[Solomon2]

he committed the crime in Pakistan so why not to trial him in Pakistani soil ?

He has immunity, so any trial must be in U.S. courts. If he didn't have immunity Davis would just be another unremarkable American who got in trouble and ended up in jail overseas.

If the al kaida terrorist of afganistan can taken to guantamo bay for trial as they committed crime against american people, in the same way Pakistan should have the right to trial him in Pakistani soil .

1)The U.S. did not and does not recognize Al Qaeda as a sovereign entity, nor (2) has Al-Qaeda signed the Vienna Conventions that Pakistan has (nor can it!) , and (3) Davis didn't commit a crime against the Pakistani people as Al-Qaeda did to America.