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RAW is WAR !!!

Color me unimpressed.

9/11 anyone?

Failure of detecting Indian nuke tests in 74 and 98 anyone?

London bombings anyone?

I mean whats the use of all those Ethan Hunt and James bond movies if you cant stop 9/11 kind of attacks which are launched from your own soil?

Also if your read the Mitrokhin Archives the KGB penetrated India with such ease they used to joke about it one big Dacha for its ops.

Replace KGB with Mossad and India with US.

The KGB failed to stop the defection of Stalin's daughter which happened in New Delhi. The so called Big Dacha really had some large holes it seems.

Funny mitrokhin beomes an angel all of sudden since it helps here.

GB
 
i came to know about RAW oly after joining this forum

tat is in october 2009
 
RAW nowdays is handling the things in a good manner....
Many terrorist attempts foiled in the ongoing year........
These dudes are becoming cool nowdays..
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Well there are books written by ex-RAW officials complaining about corruption within RAW ranks. There have been allegations about intelligence failures like Kargil for example and lack of resources. This book is a must read if you want an internal look at RAW workings and problems in the signals intelligence section
India's External Intelligence: Secrets of Research and Analysis Wing (RAW)

There have also been various articles addressing critical issues about RAW and IB most notably in outlookindia. Some articles that have interesting info are

www.outlookindia.com | Former RAW Official Charges CIC Staff of Forgery

www.outlookindia.com | "Need For Muslim Officers In Intelligence Gathering Is Acute"
www.outlookindia.com | Muslims And Sikhs Need Not Apply

If you read the interview, it looks like there are actually may be muslim officers as well in RAW but they don't want to make it public

Bringing J&K insurgency into control had a lot to do with local IB officers who were part of J&K police for example.

Bottomline, I think RAW should report to a select intelligence committee like the CIA does and that consists of selected MPs across party lines and who can monitor and address performance issues other than just the PMO.
 
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I am not into all this hero worship. I see RAW as an extension of Western intelligence agencies and ISI as an extension of Chinese intelligence agencies. When both of our countries are so heavily reliant on external support and goodies how can we even think that we are having an independent foreign policy or an independent ruling establishment or an intelligence agency. Isn't this a self created illusion?
 
I am not into all this hero worship. I see RAW as an extension of Western intelligence agencies and ISI as an extension of Chinese intelligence agencies. When both of our countries are so heavily reliant on external support and goodies how can we even think that we are having an independent foreign policy or an independent ruling establishment or an intelligence agency. Isn't this a self created illusion?

U mean to say india didnt follow an independent foreign policy ??
I mean for gods sake we started the non aligned movement.
India is one the very few coutries in the world where super powers couldnt open their military bases...whether the most pro india Kennedy admin of USA or later communist USSR ,both were denied any military bases inside india even though we shared close diplomatic ties.
 
Fuctioning of RAW depended upon the the incumbent govt in power.
Indira Gandhi was an aggressive leader and she used RAW to its optimum before 71war in arming and training of the MutiBahini , helped in creation of a new nation.I think no other spy agency in the world can claim such achievement.

Then came Moraji Desai who hated RAW as he considered it a stooge of IG govt .He indiscretly told Pakistani President Zia ul-Haq that he was aware of Islamabad's nuclear schemes and later on turned down an Isreal proposal to to destroy Pak Nuclear facilities . He hold the distinction being the only indian leader who was awared Nishaan-e-Pakistan of pakistan by President Zia ul-Haq.U can imagine why President Zia ul-Haq adored Moraji Desai .


RAW was once again potent in true Chanakyan PM PV Narsinhma Rao era when karachi was facing worse ethinic violence than what TTP is doing Peshawar these day.This made ISI to stop its support for Khalistan terrorist in exchange of ceasure of covert RAW activity in Sind and Balochistan.And no wonder the Khalistan movement died by mid nineties with members disappeared to Canada from pakistan .

But then came era of candle light diplomacy of PM IK Gujral who single handly dismantled the RAW network in pakistan that RAW lost ground which its trying to cover till today.The Lahore Bus Travller AB Vajpayee to didnt much in RAW case in pakistan till kargil happend due to yrs negilgence in intel gathering inside pakistan .
 
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The biggest scoop that RAW pulled of after Bangladesh was the recording of Mohammed Aziz and Pervez Musharraf talking about the operation during Kargil-- presenting it as a proof to Nawaz Sharif without the military and ISI having a clue about it.

India gave Kargil tapes to Sharif a week before release
RITU SARIN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NEW DELHI, OCT 24: "This is Pakistan. Give me room No 83315...'' Thus began the ill-fated telephone conversation between Lt General Mohammed Aziz, Pakistan's Chief of General Staff and his boss, the Army Chief General Parvez Musharraf. The General was in a hotel room in Beijing, speaking secrets on an open trunk line and somewhere in the skies above, the listening posts were whirring.
At least two conversations of May 26 and May 29 -- when the Kargil hills were afire -- between the two Pakistani Generals were picked up and ``bull's eye'' was the phrase resounding in the headquarters of the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW). By June 1, Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and members of the Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) had heard the tapes.

And by June 4, India had taken the audacious step of delivering the Musharraf tapes, along with a written transcript to Pakistan's Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif himself.

If the Musharraf tapes were India's biggest intelligence breakthrough during Kargil, theundercover operation of handing them over to Islamabad was equally significant. A series of high-level meetings were held to discuss it and it was decided that the best way to convince the Pakistanis about the authenticity of the tapes was to let them listen to Aziz and Musharraf talking Kargil. But who would courier the sensitive cargo?

A via-media between a diplomatic mission and purely a Track-Two option was found. R K Mishra of the Observer group, who was in Australia, was asked to return to New Delhi and assigned the job. Fearing detection, or maybe just a cumbersome baggage search at the airport, the big-wigs at North Block decided Mishra must have the cover of diplomatic immunity. MEA's Joint Secretary, Vivek Katju was asked to board the PIA flight along with Mishra and either on the night of June 3 or June 4, the duo landed in Islamabad.

The Indian Embassy worked late that night, as the Musharraf tapes were played and re-played for senior members of the mission.

Those in the know say thatMishra's appointment with Nawaz Sharif was fixed by a senior member of the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) for the breakfast hour the following morning. Mishra went alone at about 8:30 am, handed over the tape and transcript and apparently made it known that this was just a sample of the ``evidence'' of military involvement in possession of New Delhi. It is not known whether Sharif listened to his military commanders' conversations in front of the Indian emissary or did so afterwards. What is known is that a worried-looking premier said he would look into the contents and act accordingly. Mishra and Katju left for New Delhi the same evening, mission accomplished. Mishra now says he is not willing to talk about his visit to Islamabad and says if anyone is talking about his assignment, they were being ``irresponsible.''

From the Indian viewpoint, the Musharraf tapes nailed Pakistan's lie that the Kargil intrusions were a non-military affair. Two, they exposed the fact that Musharraf and his fellow commanderswere dealing with Nawaz strictly on a need-to-know basis. The Indian A team, which included former RAW Secretary, Arvind Dave, National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra and External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh had calculated that once brought face to face with such evidence -- and the hint of more tapes and wire-taps in India's possession -- the Kargil situation might improve.

On June 11 -- a full week after Sharif had heard the tapes and on the eve of Sartaj Aziz's India visit -- that the conversations were made public at a press conference, though everyone was left guessing on the source for the intelligence scoop.

Members of the intelligence community are still hesitant to talk about how and where the Aziz-Musharraf conversations were mapped, saying it would be unwise for India to talk about such capabilities. But the fact that this was ``our own'' handiwork (and not that of the CIA, for instance) is well known by now. Those who have heard the tapes say the conversations are more audible fromthe Aziz end, indicating that the listening posts got their break over Islamabad, not Beijing.

Others say that the manner in which Musharraf discussed operational details of the Kargil war on a public line was typical of Pakistan's new commander-in-chief. But Musharraf is optimistic: he has ordered an inquiry and has decided to turn the tables on Nawaz and make the phone-tapping incident part of the chain of conspiracy against him.

What the tapes contain

May 26

(The Army Chief is informed that India has begun strafing and bombing their positions from high altitude.)

Lt Gen Aziz to Gen Musharraf: ``The situation is that we are along our defensive Line of Control...they (India) are not agreed on the demarcation under UNs verification, whereas we are agreed. We want to exploit it."

Musharraf: Has this MI-17 not fallen in our area?

Aziz: No sir. This has fallen in their area. We have not claimed it. We have got it claimed through the Mujahideen.

Musharraf:Well done.

May 29

(The day Indian air-strikes began)

Musharraf to Aziz: ``The door of discussion, dialogue must be kept open and rest, no change in ground situation.''

Aziz: ``We told him (Nawaz Sharif) there is no reason of alarm and panic. Then he said that I came to know 7 days back, when Corps Commanders were told. The entire reason for the success of this operation was this total secrecy.
''

Copyright © 1999 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.
India gave Kargil tapes to Sharif a week before release
 
U mean to say india didnt follow an independent foreign policy ??
I mean for gods sake we started the non aligned movement.
India is one the very few coutries in the world where super powers couldnt open their military bases...whether the most pro india Kennedy admin of USA or later communist USSR ,both were denied any military bases inside india even though we shared close diplomatic ties.

Is this the deepest you go in considering things?

Is it necessary to open their bases when there is a chance of us joining them with our own resources when required???

US was the hottest most richest team to be during the cold-war whereas Soviets were better known for their aggression and opression-- we being Soviet allies helped start the NAM to prevent more and more people from flocking into the US camp. Do you think US appreciated us opening the NAM?

Now we are in US Camp and projecting us against China, when it is questionable if that is required to be that open and loud. If we really had a problem with China don't you think we should have been preparing quietly and not bringing all the Chinese attention to us? US is using India to divert Chinese resources against us rather than US, isn't this what a "mohra" is?

And the military base norm you raised is laughable, aren't there US bases inside Pakistan? In Pakistan's point-of-view (at-least in majority's opinion) US is their biggest enemy right now.

You are sounding like a child who has just finished some GK books and read Wikipedia frequently.
 
Is this the deepest you go in considering things?

Is it necessary to open their bases when there is a chance of us joining them with our own resources when required???

US was the hottest most richest team to be during the cold-war whereas Soviets were better known for their aggression and opression-- we being Soviet allies helped start the NAM to prevent more and more people from flocking into the US camp. Do you think US appreciated us opening the NAM?

Now we are in US Camp and projecting us against China, when it is questionable if that is required to be that open and loud. If we really had a problem with China don't you think we should have been preparing quietly and not bringing all the Chinese attention to us? US is using India to divert Chinese resources against us rather than US, isn't this what a "mohra" is?

And the military base norm you raised is laughable, aren't there US bases inside Pakistan? In Pakistan's point-of-view (at-least in majority's opinion) US is their biggest enemy right now.

You are sounding like a child who has just finished some GK books and read Wikipedia frequently.

Ladies and gents Right wing foreign policy.

with dose of Chronic Lack of faith in the Indian establishment.
 
Is this the deepest you go in considering things?

Is it necessary to open their bases when there is a chance of us joining them with our own resources when required???


Well,whenever we join them with our own resources ,we do it based on our own interests.And thats the crust of having an independent foreign policy.We can also deny joining them if its not condusive to our interst.There are several instance where india refused to be part of any military block belonging to cold war powers.



US was the hottest most richest team to be during the cold-war whereas Soviets were better known for their aggression and opression-- we being Soviet allies helped start the NAM to prevent more and more people from flocking into the US camp. Do you think US appreciated us opening the NAM?

Well it would've been much easier for us to join the camp of hottest & richest USA in the 50s amd early sixties or "aggressive and opressive as u say" USSR block to reap the goodies of being ally of a super power when super powers are doing their best to lure more allies into their camps. Instead Pandit Nehru choosed that this poor but culturally mature landmass desist joining any cold war camp and followed the non aligned policies and proposed NAM.Noone can accuse us being the lap dogs of super powers fighting cold war.




Now we are in US Camp and projecting us against China, when it is questionable if that is required to be that open and loud. If we really had a problem with China don't you think we should have been preparing quietly and not bringing all the Chinese attention to us? US is using India to divert Chinese resources against us rather than US, isn't this what a "mohra" is?
We arent in US camp.We are in indian camp .period.Ask

Can anyone in right mind could say we are in US camp to fight aganist China for the USA ??.:cheesy:.

China is threat for us ,not because of USA ,but due its land dispute with india for which we had fought war in 1962.

Its only part of some back room mumble that US is helping india to face off china while US companies themselve are heavily invested in china and promoting china as numero uno destination to do business there.

And also Its the USA who is everything to placate growing Chinese ambitions even to indias embarrassment by asking china to play a bigger role in in south Asia.

We still buy our weapons from Russia.
The Nuclear deal with USA is in a lurch while india signing more comprehensive deals with Russia and france.We are still maintain good working relationship with Iran inspite of UN sanctions .

The most recent sign of independent indian foreign policy is when india lead the developing nations along other BRIC nation including china :undecided:at the Copenhegon climate summit and took on the developed world lead by US to arrive at a compromising deal that at took into account the interests of india and rest of the developing nations.

And the military base norm you raised is laughable, aren't there US bases inside Pakistan? In Pakistan's point-of-view (at-least in majority's opinion) US is their biggest enemy right now.

Whats laughable is the sheer ignorance u show.
There is a reason why u dont find any US or USSR bases in india ever
Or the US nuclear cover that Japan and Australia have aganist any chinese agression . We arent bulwark of super power aganist another or fight its war like pakistan did in 80s in Afghanistan agaist USSR and doing it now .

Does matter what majority opinoin is in pakistan when it gets ten billions of dollar military aid in previous yrs and going to get Billions more through Kerry-lugher Biill in exchage of being its allie in the war aganist terror and allow its citizens to be bombed in Drone attcks??



You are sounding like a child who has just finished some GK books and read Wikipedia frequently

Oh thank u.Its true i do read GK books and wikipedia too.

What do u read,classified documents of foreign office??


May i know what sort of very deep analysis u have done to arrive at the conclusion that india never had a independent foreign policy something which frankly speaking hardly any foreign policy experts ever accused india of ??

And what exactly u meanrt by independent foreign policy??

Dont dare ever explain since we have been poor country we cant have an independent foreign policies as india has clearly demonstrated in the past that we were never pawn of super powers.
 
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