Rafale vs sukhoi 30 mki

[boltu]

It's not bangali but bengali !!

The fact is russian fighters were developed with entirely different thing in mind than the US/EU fighters. The former wanted to keep it cheap and primarily for defense whereas the latter was developed keeping in mind better offensive capabilities.

Eg. Russia focused on super maneuverability as dog fights are more probable in a defense scenario while the latter focused more on stealth/VLO capabilities and better BVRs etc...

Thus the later one takes the cake as in today's scenario dogfight is obsolete though looks good in airshows.
btw,In English its Bengali but in Bangla its Bangali...

 

[rockstarIN]

If we compare, we should compare on available infos and not speculate. Neither a Ramjet version of R77 is available, because they currently develop the version with improved seekers and folding wings for stealth fighters, nor is such an ASTRA version anywhere close to be available (not even the early version of Astra is ready for induction).
It's not like Rafale is not available in twin seat config right?

The basic R-77 is known as the Article 170, and the RVV-SD includes the upgrades associated with the Article 170-1 designation. The 170-1 development has been underway for some time, and testing is believed to have been carried out. The RVV-SD is in effect the export variant of the 170-1.

According to information released by the company, the missile is 15 kg (33 lb) heavier than the basic R-77/RVV-AE, weighing 190 kg (420 lb) rather than 175 kg (390 lb). Maximum range claimed is increased to 110 km (68 mi) from 80 km (50 mi). The missile is also slightly longer at 3.71 metres (12.2 ft), rather than the 3.6 metres (12 ft) of the basic variant.

The radar seeker has also probably been upgraded. Russian missile manufacturer Agat previously confirmed it was working on seeker upgrades for the R-77, implying that at least two projects were underway, one for export and one for the Russian air force.

R-77, R-73 Missile Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK

Actually they do developed/are developing a new version of R-77

 

[LiberalAtheist]

two different air craft of different classes MKI is a heavy long range air superiority fighter Rafale is a swing role fighter primarily used for strike but could also be used for air to air combat.

 

[Hello_10]

is super 30 > su35?

As per the news I read till now, SU30 wasn’t as good as SU30MKI as India also took help of Israel and France for MKI version making it a better aircraft than what was supplied to China. And then with passage of time, till 2010, we used to read on the different places like on wikipedia that SU30MKI is a ‘sister version’ of SU35, almost same. But now we find a new upgrade which incorporate 5th gen capabilities like stealth features, AESA radar etc which has upgraded SU30MKI to 4++ 'Super Sukhoi' and it will again be of the same class as 4++ SU35BM. Hence, if SU30MKI will be upgraded to 4++ Super Sukhoi then SU35 to 4++ SU35BM with incorporating the similar 5th gen features. And if it was justified to say SU30MKI was almost same to SU35 till 2010, then I find by 2014, we will read 'Super Sukhoi' SU30MKI and SU35BM almost same also. As, if something will be good with SU35BM then its obvious that IAF would ask Russia to provide that improved features to Super Sukhoi SU30MKI also. That’s why we find Russia offering either Super Sukhoi SU30mki or SU35BM to India, both are of same price and almost same type/ capable aircrafts. ($4.3bn is estimated for new order of 42 Super Sukhoi SU30MKI while almost the same was required for 42 SU35BM.) But India is happy with SU30MKI as they have its full production lines, from raw to product.

This is the same 4++ SU35BM which is on offer to Brazil in competition with Rafale F3. And even if we call SU30MKI/ SU35 as mainly an air superiority aircraft, it is now in competition with Rafale in Brazilian context, which is a multi role aircraft. Hence, more or less we find all the aircrafts being made for a balance of both air superiority and multi role operations. But the difference is only on the side of ‘competency’, if SU30MKI/ SU35 is on 'high end side' for a2a roles, then Rafale is on high end side for a2g roles but both are categorized as Multi Role Aircrafts right now.

 

[sancho]

Actually they do developed/are developing a new version of R-77

That's what I meant mate, there are upgraded version under development, but the closes to be integrated are:


Short-range air-to-air guided missile RVV-MD, improved R73

Medium-range air-to-air guided missile RVV-SD, improved R77

Long-range air-to-air guided missile RVV-BD, improved R33

But as you can see, none of them will have a ramjet propulsion! RVV-SD might get increased range compared to the current versions and just like the AIM 120D, but the propulsion is the key of METEOR, because it allows it to maintain the high speed and increase the no escape zone, while the earlier missiles will get slower.
Ramjet developments are going on for RVV, AIM 120 and are even planned for Astra, but they will be around at the end of the decade the earliest, that's why it doesn't make sense to compare them now for fighters that will be inducted by 2015.

But now we find a new upgrade which incorporate 5th gen capabilities like stealth features,

And again, that's wrong! Neither Super 30 nor Su 35BM have stealth features, they only reduced their RCS by using modern materials and coatings. These things are standard for new 4th to 4.5 gen fighters, while they wasn't back then when the Flanker series was developed. Integrating these + long range AESA or PESA radars + latest avionics makes them modern 4.5 gen fighters, but are far behind a 5th gen fighter.

 

[Jon Snow]

That's what I meant mate, there are upgraded version under development, but the closes to be integrated are:


Short-range air-to-air guided missile RVV-MD, improved R73

Medium-range air-to-air guided missile RVV-SD, improved R77

Long-range air-to-air guided missile RVV-BD, improved R33

But as you can see, none of them will have a ramjet propulsion! RVV-SD might get increased range compared to the current versions and just like the AIM 120D, but the propulsion is the key of METEOR, because it allows it to maintain the high speed and increase the no escape zone, while the earlier missiles will get slower.
Ramjet developments are going on for RVV, AIM 120 and are even planned for Astra, but they will be around at the end of the decade the earliest, that's why it doesn't make sense to compare them now for fighters that will be inducted by 2015.



And again, that's wrong! Neither Super 30 nor Su 35BM have stealth features, they only reduced their RCS by using modern materials and coatings. These things are standard for new 4th to 4.5 gen fighters, while they wasn't back then when the Flanker series was developed. Integrating these + long range AESA or PESA radars + latest avionics makes them modern 4.5 gen fighters, but are far behind a 5th gen fighter.

But the rafale isnt getting the meteor till the end of the decade either - deliveries to france are to start in 2018 and after that the deliveries to india will commence, till then the rafale will have to rely on mica ( which is also a very good missile but lacks range)

 

[Hello_10]

And again, that's wrong! Neither Super 30 nor Su 35BM have stealth features, they only reduced their RCS by using modern materials and coatings. These things are standard for new 4th to 4.5 gen fighters, while they wasn't back then when the Flanker series was developed. Integrating these + long range AESA or PESA radars + latest avionics makes them modern 4.5 gen fighters, but are far behind a 5th gen fighter.

Mate, we always need to deal with 'Grey Areas'. you will never have luxury to differentiate among the options on the basis of black or white terms, things are always in between the two ends. (this advice will help you in your professional life.) and it is possible that we both might have few things as per the facts and few things “not exactly but yes”, something like this, isn't it?

please read the post you replied and see what I said, did I say Super Sukhoi SU30MKI or SU35Bm are 5th gen stealth fighters? I clearly wrote them as 4++ as per what their manufacture name them? And these two 4++ do have certain stealth features, even if they aren’t a complete 5th gen stealth fighters, isn't it? Also, Im not the master in aircraft industries like you . you might have great knowledge in aircraft industries who discuss so many small terms but Im not in this field. I just say what I read somewhere. Please read the news as below thanks

Irkut Corporation of Russia has indicated that the Indian Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter aircraft squadron is to be upgraded into a "Super Sukhoi” by incorporating certain fifth generation aircraft features.

According to sources, the Su-MKI upgrade will include a new cockpit, upgraded radar and certain stealth characteristics which can make it less visible to enemy radar than the present Su-30.

Meanwhile, there is a lot to be clarified what the "Super Sukhoi” aircraft will actually be worth in terms of fifth generation capability.

India

 

[sancho]

But the rafale isnt getting the meteor till the end of the decade either - deliveries to france are to start in 2018 and after that the deliveries to india will commence, till then the rafale will have to rely on mica ( which is also a very good missile but lacks range)

The missile will be integrated as soon as METEOR will be fully developed and even during the development, since it is already making test flights with it from their carrier. France inducts them in 2018 only, because their MICA EMs will reach the end of their life only by then. UAE already said they want an early integration and they will get their fighters (depending on signature of the contract) by 2014 / 15 as well.

Mate, we always need to deal with 'Grey Areas'

Super 30 will not have specially shapped airframe, no engine ducts / radar blockers, cranked tail fins, let alone internal weapon bays, so it won't have stealth features! As I told you before, Indian media even claims LCA MK2 will have 5th gen cockpit, but it still not even close to be a 5th gen stealth fighter.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Super 30 will not have specially shapped airframe, no engine ducts / radar blockers, cranked tail fins, let alone internal weapon bays, so it won't have stealth features! As I told you before, Indian media even claims LCA MK2 will have 5th gen cockpit, but it still not even close to be a 5th gen stealth fighter.

Getting a 5th Gen cockpit into Tejas MK2 is different from making a MK2 to a 5th Gen Stealth Fighter... MK2 will have new panoramic cockpit which will go into AMCA hopefully

 

[IND151]

@ OP> you are wrong

SU 30 is multi role fighter and successor of Su 27 which was designed for deep air interdiction, AWACS killer

SU 30 is multi role fighter but its mainly for air superiority and like SU 27 can play role of deep air interdiction

Rafale on other hand is mainly for A2G

 

[sancho]

Getting a 5th Gen cockpit into Tejas MK2 is different from making a MK2 to a 5th Gen Stealth Fighter...

Exactly, but tell that Indian media that wants to sell sensational news, but the point was, even if Super 30 gets some NG avionics and a good AESA radar, it remains to be a 4th gen fighter, because will not be a stealth fighter.

SU 30 is multi role fighter and successor of Su 27

Correct, Su 30 is the Su 27 air superiority fighter with added multi role capabilities. While Su 30 MKI is a modified Su 30 for better A2A capabilities.

Rafale on other hand is mainly for A2G

Not correct, Rafale is designed to be equally good in A2A and A2G, not like the EF or Flankers, just with added A2G capabilities.

 

[leridan]

Something that's very often missed about Rafale is that it's designed to operate in passive mode as its primary BVR mode.

It can acquire targets for its MICA's either through SPECTRA's radar receivers OR from its IRST (called OSF, for Optronique Secteur Frontal, Front Sector Optronics). Thales says OSF's video channel can _identify_ a target up to 40-80km away - though I guess clouds don't help

Against a Sukhoi without AWACS support, it's a no-brainer, the Rafale will detect and acquire the Sukhoi's radar well before the Sukhoi's pilot gets a return.

The real question is how does SPECTRA fare against an AESA LPI mode. I guess the FAF and Thales have an idea from Rafale's participation in Red Flag - a number of USAF officers voiced their irritation at the French delegation's "recording studio" act during the exercise.

But this is emphatically not public knowledge. There have been exactly zero rumors leaked on the subject, and I'm on one of the main French forum with many active and retired FAF personnel.

Note that this reliance on passive detection has strong implications on tactics, which the FAF is obviously only starting to explore. It's telling that the OSF wasn't included in aircraft intended for primarily strike squadrons, but that the FAF is now clamoring for a retrofit.

And I think that this general obliviousness to the fact that the RBE2 is NOT the Rafale's primary AtA detection system is what got the Typhoon pilots in the UAE. Even though the script was a strictly WVR affair, apparently the Rafales detected the Typhoons well before the merge and were able to position some of the aircraft to get flank shots on the brits, which may be why the RAF pilots cried foul afterwards.

 

[MilSpec]

@ OP> you are wrong

SU 30 is multi role fighter and successor of Su 27 which was designed for deep air interdiction, AWACS killer

SU 30 is multi role fighter but its mainly for air superiority and like SU 27 can play role of deep air interdiction

Rafale on other hand is mainly for A2G

cannot buy that one.... Rafale has excellent dogfighting abilities, it's an air superiority aircraft masquerading as a multi/omnirole, just like the so called multirole m35ovt and f15SE (all of em are champion A2A platforms)

 

[MiG-21]

^^ I believe it will be like Mig-29 v/s Mirage in IAF....Pilots flying each will swear by it while the other one will try to outdo it..
A friendly competition..

Mirage-2000 is underpowered when compared to a Power House like the MiG-29, which is currently the plane with the highest Thrust to Weight ratio in the IAF inventory. Also with the known maneuverability of the MiG-29, i'd give the MiG hands down in WVR fights. In BVR, Magic is lesser ranged than the R-27 so you have your answer there. During the Kargil war, it was the MiG-29 which provided aircover for the MiG-27s and Jaguars and even Mirage-2000s. Mirage-2000 wasn't tasked to provide air cover to the MiG-27s. The Main advantage of the Mirage-2000 is it is Nuclear Capable and an excellent multirole fighter. MiG-29 has little or no Ground Attack capability.
But with Upgrades in the form of Mica and new radar, Mirage-2000 will snatch the lead in the BVR arena from the MiG-29, and the MiG-29 would have a secondary ground attack capability.

In case of the Rafale and Su-30MKI it's the reverse, as the french beat the russians. Rafale, although does not have TVC, has a lot more evergy due to it's huge Thrust to weight ratio. After induction, rafale will de-throne MiG-29 as the Raw Power House of the IAF. So in WVR missile fights, I dunno which will come out as the victor. However if the fight drags to guns-only then Rafale will eat MKI without breaking a sweat. MKI seriously needs new engines, it still uses the same thrust engines as the old Su-27, while putting on several tonnes extra weight. In BVR too Rafale will out shine the MKI due to it's low RCS, AESA and it's ridiculously priced more accurate missiles.
In the ground attack department, Rafale again out shine the MKI. It's load carrying capacity is 9.5 tonnes when compared to only 8 tonnes of the MKI. Plus unlike the MKI, it has a better chance of coming out alive due to its Spectra Suite. All in all, Rafale's ground attack capability fits into its omnirole nature, compared to secondary ground attack capability of the MKI.

Rounding up

Thrust to Weight Ratio & Rate of Climb
MiG-29B > Mirage-2000H
Rafale > Su-30MKI

Speed
MiG-29B ~ Mirage-2000H
Rafale ~ Su-30MKI

Range
Mirage-2000H > MiG-29
Su-30MKI > Rafale

WVR(Missiles)
MiG-29B > Mirage-2000H
Rafale ~ Su-30MKI

WVR(Guns)
MiG-29B > Mirage-2000H
Rafale > Su-30MKI

BVR
MiG-29B > Mirage-2000H
Rafale > Su-30MKI

Ground Attack & SEAD
Mirage-2000H > MiG-29
Rafale > Su-30MKI

 

[Screambowl]

No one here is a specialist or a good analyst