RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[500]

ultimately AESA EQUIPPED rafale with meteore gives the F16/52 no chanceie 1 in 5 chance for F16/52

If you take Rafale with AESA you should compare it with F-16 block 60 with AESA not block 52.

 

[sancho]

no doubt the F-16 would win in a dogfight

So far Rafales won most dogfights against F16s in different versions and from different countries, including US once. Also all reports from US pilots that flew against it praised it's high maneuverability, be it F16, F18 or even F22 pilots.
And when you judge the general performance of the three Eurocanards against the US teens, the advantage of modern design gets even more obvious.

 

[naseem shah]

the answer to rafale from pakistan will be jf 17 thunder block 3 which will offer state of the art features

 

[Mani2020]

the answer to rafale from pakistan will be jf 17 thunder block 3 which will offer state of the art features

too early to say...lets be rational ....both aircrafts belong to different categories and have different roles...

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

the answer to rafale from pakistan will be jf 17 thunder block 3 which will offer state of the art features

what state of the art features?

 

[DevilDog]

A good comparison to make. I love Vipers but Rafale's better and a bit more advanced than falcons.

 

[Viper0011.]

Ok buddy the Rafale is a weapon of mass destruction, please return to the Rafale fan boy thread and spread the good news.

LOL, another of my brother countrymen going through what I go through. My man, it is USELESS to tell the Indian community that ANYTHING that they might have, God forbid includes a limitation. Everything India has, gets or builds, comes straight from the God and has no competition to it. I am used to it and I see your frustration.

Let's try to bring this discussion home and be fair to the hardware vs. people being of whatever region, culture, etc and promoting fan boy pipe dreams. Well, The Rafale with Spectra, AESA and advanced Meteors will be considered a bit advanced when compared to the F-16 B 52. Just like someone else said, a better comparison with this capability is F-16 B60 and 70. That's head on competition.
But WRT F-16 B52 and Rafale being better with the above Spectra, etc capability, we ALSO have to look at the threat scenario where it'll be used in. If say Iraq had the F-16 B52's and the US was flying Rafale (I know it can't happen but let's assume it did and we were all asleep one night), so in this case, the advanced capability of Spectra, AESA and Meteor will be exposed?
HECK YES!! because of the integrated nature of the US warfare machine, the technologies that work with Rafale (EM jamming, AWACS, anti radiation, all Land-Sea-Air assets working under true command and control) vs. the Iraqi F-16's B 52s working on individual basis or with smaller ground control radars with less capable SAMS, etc, Right. So that's a situation when you could see how Rafale may be superior to F-16 B 52. I still wouldn't say that the Rafale will have 80% wins in close combat encounters.
Now, in the Indian and Pakistani scenario.....the above case doesn't hold true. Both the nations have pretty much no BVR advantage as you guys are located right next to each other. Pakistan and Indian airbases are usually within a 100 miles of the border. (specially the FOB's).

So a SU-30 or Rafale may have a 150 mile BVR weapon and Radar capability....but it'll lock the Pakistani jets at the same time when they will lock on to the Indian jets...within crossing that 100 mile threshold. So, in essence, both jets from either side will be locking onto each other when they get airborne withing that 100 mile radius. Similarly, both the jets will be working to break the BVR lock at the same time pretty much.
Plus, the sensor fusion is a LOT within a 100 mile on each side of the border. You are talking two - three tiers of Radars (including SAMs, AWACS and Aerostat to longer range 3D data exchanging networks linked to fighters), etc, etc. So in this scenario, there is no real advantage as it is lost due to being next to each other. On paper, yes, I'd give Rafale more advantage but not in this scenario. Now if India went against a country away from it and that country didn't have a lot of advanced weaponry, and the same scenario is repeated, Rafale will show better results. This is as fair as it gets!

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

LOL, another of my brother countrymen going through what I go through. My man, it is USELESS to tell the Indian community that ANYTHING that they might have, God forbid includes a limitation. Everything India has, gets or builds, comes straight from the God and has no competition to it. I am used to it and I see your frustration.

Let's try to bring this discussion home and be fair to the hardware vs. people being of whatever region, culture, etc and promoting fan boy pipe dreams. Well, The Rafale with Spectra, AESA and advanced Meteors will be considered a bit advanced when compared to the F-16 B 52. Just like someone else said, a better comparison with this capability is F-16 B60 and 70. That's head on competition.
But WRT F-16 B52 and Rafale being better with the above Spectra, etc capability, we ALSO have to look at the threat scenario where it'll be used in. If say Iraq had the F-16 B52's and the US was flying Rafale (I know it can't happen but let's assume it did and we were all asleep one night), so in this case, the advanced capability of Spectra, AESA and Meteor will be exposed?
HECK YES!! because of the integrated nature of the US warfare machine, the technologies that work with Rafale (EM jamming, AWACS, anti radiation, all Land-Sea-Air assets working under true command and control) vs. the Iraqi F-16's B 52s working on individual basis or with smaller ground control radars with less capable SAMS, etc, Right. So that's a situation when you could see how Rafale may be superior to F-16 B 52. I still wouldn't say that the Rafale will have 80% wins in close combat encounters.
Now, in the Indian and Pakistani scenario.....the above case doesn't hold true. Both the nations have pretty much no BVR advantage as you guys are located right next to each other. Pakistan and Indian airbases are usually within a 100 miles of the border. (specially the FOB's).

So a SU-30 or Rafale may have a 150 mile BVR weapon and Radar capability....but it'll lock the Pakistani jets at the same time when they will lock on to the Indian jets...within crossing that 100 mile threshold. So, in essence, both jets from either side will be locking onto each other when they get airborne withing that 100 mile radius. Similarly, both the jets will be working to break the BVR lock at the same time pretty much.
Plus, the sensor fusion is a LOT within a 100 mile on each side of the border. You are talking two - three tiers of Radars (including SAMs, AWACS and Aerostat to longer range 3D data exchanging networks linked to fighters), etc, etc. So in this scenario, there is no real advantage as it is lost due to being next to each other. On paper, yes, I'd give Rafale more advantage but not in this scenario. Now if India went against a country away from it and that country didn't have a lot of advanced weaponry, and the same scenario is repeated, Rafale will show better results. This is as fair as it gets!

You did not talk about SPECTRA at all. Rafale will have better missile countermeasures. Not to mention that Rafale can fire meteor without having to provide it inertial guidance after launch, denying the F16 an opportunity to launch AIM120C.

 

[ANPP]

the answer to rafale from pakistan will be jf 17 thunder block 3 which will offer state of the art features

 

[Viper0011.]

You did not talk about SPECTRA at all. Rafale will have better missile countermeasures. Not to mention that Rafale can fire meteor without having to provide it inertial guidance after launch, denying the F16 an opportunity to launch AIM120C.

How is that so my man? Help me understand please. There is reality and there is blind Indian patriotism. Let's stick to reality here. If F-16 takes off from an airbase in response to an inbound Rafale 50 miles off the border and the F-16 is also 50 miles from the border....both can lock on to the each other and fire their BVR's. The BVR's have similar speeds so they fly by each other. Mid course, AMRAAM also doesn't need any further guidance. Granted if both the BVR's were fired at 100 miles or 80 miles, they'd both be radar independent when within 25 or more miles (btw, BVR's should be fired from a 40-60 mile range for optimal use). The F-16, per your SPECTRA post above, still have 20 or so miles to go defensive on the Meteor.....so how does having a SPECTRA and Meteor help the Rafale in this case? You can say that 'SPECTRA' has 'much better missile countermeasures'. But do you think the US manufacturers don't know this? If you know future warfare and strategy, the Americans ALREADY consider the SU's, EFT's and the Rafale's opponents for the next decades. That's what the others will have most likely. You think the American military industrial complex will just let the F-16's drop off the sky due to Rafale's 'superior' tech? It is reputation of a weapons system that makes a LOT of military leaders sleep properly at night in over 30 countries that use the F-16's!!!
Also, please show me ONE credible statement that means something by some some credible air defense or military institute that says that in reality, the Rafale would have open superiority over the F-16 block 52, the AMRAAMS won't work with the SPECTRA system due to its superiority etc. I'd like to see you give us credible data that supports these. The exercise you refer to, are done by the USAF and USN WITHOUT using all the capability. These exercise are really designed to make others feel better but yet, have the ability to study their systems in combat-like scenario. So, forget about the exercises, please show me a credible proof from some credible institute about how AMRAAM's will fail and how F-16 is a no match for the Rafale. Thx

 

[ANPP]

How is that so my man? Help me understand please. There is reality and there is blind Indian patriotism. Let's stick to reality here. If F-16 takes off from an airbase in response to an inbound Rafale 50 miles off the border and the F-16 is also 50 miles from the border....both can lock on to the each other and fire their BVR's. The BVR's have similar speeds so they fly by each other. Mid course, AMRAAM also doesn't need any further guidance. Granted if both the BVR's were fired at 100 miles or 80 miles, they'd both be radar independent when within 25 or more miles (btw, BVR's should be fired from a 40-60 mile range for optimal use). The F-16, per your SPECTRA post above, still have 20 or so miles to go defensive on the Meteor.....so how does having a SPECTRA and Meteor help the Rafale in this case? You can say that 'SPECTRA' has 'much better missile countermeasures'. But do you think the US manufacturers don't know this? If you know future warfare and strategy, the Americans ALREADY consider the SU's, EFT's and the Rafale's opponents for the next decades. That's what the others will have most likely. You think the American military industrial complex will just let the F-16's drop off the sky due to Rafale's 'superior' tech? It is reputation of a weapons system that makes a LOT of military leaders sleep properly at night in over 30 countries that use the F-16's!!!
Also, please show me ONE credible statement that means something by some some credible air defense or military institute that says that in reality, the Rafale would have open superiority over the F-16 block 52, the AMRAAMS won't work with the SPECTRA system due to its superiority etc. I'd like to see you give us credible data that supports these. The exercise you refer to, are done by the USAF and USN WITHOUT using all the capability. These exercise are really designed to make others feel better but yet, have the ability to study their systems in combat-like scenario. So, forget about the exercises, please show me a credible proof from some credible institute about how AMRAAM's will fail and how F-16 is a no match for the Rafale. Thx

Only one line response --
PAF dont buy 120D variant, they buy AIM120C from USA>

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

How is that so my man? Help me understand please. There is reality and there is blind Indian patriotism. Let's stick to reality here. If F-16 takes off from an airbase in response to an inbound Rafale 50 miles off the border and the F-16 is also 50 miles from the border....both can lock on to the each other and fire their BVR's. The BVR's have similar speeds so they fly by each other. Mid course, AMRAAM also doesn't need any further guidance. Granted if both the BVR's were fired at 100 miles or 80 miles, they'd both be radar independent when within 25 or more miles (btw, BVR's should be fired from a 40-60 mile range for optimal use). The F-16, per your SPECTRA post above, still have 20 or so miles to go defensive on the Meteor.....so how does having a SPECTRA and Meteor help the Rafale in this case? You can say that 'SPECTRA' has 'much better missile countermeasures'. But do you think the US manufacturers don't know this? If you know future warfare and strategy, the Americans ALREADY consider the SU's, EFT's and the Rafale's opponents for the next decades. That's what the others will have most likely. You think the American military industrial complex will just let the F-16's drop off the sky due to Rafale's 'superior' tech? It is reputation of a weapons system that makes a LOT of military leaders sleep properly at night in over 30 countries that use the F-16's!!!
Also, please show me ONE credible statement that means something by some some credible air defense or military institute that says that in reality, the Rafale would have open superiority over the F-16 block 52, the AMRAAMS won't work with the SPECTRA system due to its superiority etc. I'd like to see you give us credible data that supports these. The exercise you refer to, are done by the USAF and USN WITHOUT using all the capability. These exercise are really designed to make others feel better but yet, have the ability to study their systems in combat-like scenario. So, forget about the exercises, please show me a credible proof from some credible institute about how AMRAAM's will fail and how F-16 is a no match for the Rafale. Thx

SPECTRA features active cancellation for evading the incoming missile under guidance from launching aircraft's radar, which should make the launching aircraft/AWACS incapable of guiding the missile. Superiority of SPECTRA was one of the reasons french went for Rafale instead of Mirages. I would love to know more about F16's ECM from you. Saying that american manufacturers already considered Rafale is a lame argument. Blk 52 is an older aircraft, and F16 is even older. Obviously US manufacturers should have thought about countering Rafale, but not with Blk 52.

Another thing, Meteor is also superior to AIM120C5, it is supposed to replace AIM120 on EFT.

About you declining to accept superiority of Rafale without a credible proof, it is same as saying that there is no credible proof that F22 is superior to Mig 21, so F22 is not superior to Mig 21. That logic is also lame.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

That is why I have stated many a times----IAF has done a big favour to pakistan by basing their front line so close to the border---.

 

[notorious_eagle]

You did not talk about SPECTRA at all. Rafale will have better missile countermeasures. Not to mention that Rafale can fire meteor without having to provide it inertial guidance after launch, denying the F16 an opportunity to launch AIM120C.

First of all, F16 can launch the AMRAAM also and let the AWACS guide it for her. Second, i would put my money on the AMRAAM any day over the METEOR due to the sheer R&D invested in the AMRAAM and the amount of testing it has been put through.

The problem with SPECTRA is that nobody knows what its capabilities are as it has never been put up against the best of the best. I don't consider Libya and Mali having the most extensive and sophisticated AD coverage. The great thing about American technology is that they produce multiple products of the same category. It enables it to field the best technology against each other. The only reason why the USAF has the best tactics in the world is because she can put the F16 against the F15 and learn each other's weaknesses. SPECTRA might be very good, but we don't know enough information about it. The question you should also be asking is, what is the future of the program? Unless the IAF puts up more money, the Rafale will not progress due to the shortage of funds. The French were stupid and arrogant enough to think that they were still a major economic power and decided to go out alone with the project. The only two countries in the world whom have the funds to go out all alone is the US and China. Russia has realized too that she does not has the economic base to go out alone, she needs Indian funding for her projects too. Thus, an American or Chinese platform(in the future) will have a lot of value addition due to the sheer money that is being invested in their R&D.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

First of all, F16 can launch the AMRAAM also and let the AWACS guide it for her. Second, i would put my money on the AMRAAM any day over the METEOR due to the sheer R&D invested in the AMRAAM and the amount of testing it has been put through.

The problem with SPECTRA is that nobody knows what its capabilities are as it has never been put up against the best of the best. I don't consider Libya and Mali having the most extensive and sophisticated AD coverage. The great thing about American technology is that they produce multiple products of the same category. It enables it to field the best technology against each other. The only reason why the USAF has the best tactics in the world is because she can put the F16 against the F15 and learn each other's weaknesses. SPECTRA might be very good, but we don't know enough information about it. The question you should also be asking is, what is the future of the program? Unless the IAF puts up more money, the Rafale will not progress due to the shortage of funds. The French were stupid and arrogant enough to think that they were still a major economic power and decided to go out alone with the project. The only two countries in the world whom have the funds to go out all alone is the US and China. Russia has realized too that she does not has the economic base to go out alone, she needs Indian funding for her projects too. Thus, an American or Chinese platform(in the future) will have a lot of value addition due to the sheer money that is being invested in their R&D.

UK ordered AIM120 as a stopgap for meteor and they will go for meteor once it has been integrated with EFT. So I take their word over any random person on a random internet forum. You can put your money anywhere you want to.

About being combat proven, you guys don't question the aquisition of JF17 and J10B which are the most unproven aircraft in the world, but suddenly a plane is which has seen two wars becomes not proven enough. For your info, American F16s have never been put against the best either. The airforces they fought featured outdated Migs, inept pilots, lack of AWACS coverage and numerical inferiority.

About the future of the program, you should know that we are getting Rafales with complete ToT and 108 out 126 will be assembled in India itself. So we have legal ability to perform upgrades on them. As to if we have technological capability to do so, we will only know it in 2030. But the point is, it can be done, check out how we upgraded our Jaguars.

PS: If american weapons were so good, Pakistan's wouldn't be the largest operator of mirages in the world.