RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[illusion8]

Obviously it is very hard.

It took close to a decade for MMRCA contract allotment;
oh yeah ... still not signed is it ?

the deal is in advanced stage and should be signed in April ....if all goes well.

 

[Storm Force]

F16 PILOTS REMARK in the world class forum the F16 NET

I think we all know such comparisons fall victim to the assumptions used to make them, and I should have been clearer about mine.
I would put the Super Hornet as superior simply by virtue of its AESA radar, in a WVR engagement, I think we all know the Viper wins, hands down. As for Rafale and EF, I think it simply comes down to the fact that they are at the (relatively speaking) beginning of their lifespan developmentally, and the Viper is nearing its end. We will soon be seeing AESA equipped Rafales and Typhoons, while older Vipers may not see all of these upgrades. I should have added the caveat when I said "the only aircraft that could be considered markedly superior to the Falcon (F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, Rafale, Typhoon)" I was referring to a BVR scenario. Within visual range, I've spoken to more than one Hornet and Eagle drive who claims to have had his clock cleaned by a well flown Viper on more than one occasion.

And of course, how could I fail to mention the pilots.....

mmrca contest by india PROVED THIS above remark

TYPHOON RAFALE & F18 super hornet ALL CAME out way ahead of the F16/MIG35/GRIPEN NG

ultimately AESA EQUIPPED rafale with meteore gives the F16/52 no chanceie 1 in 5 chance for F16/52

CLOSE RANGE 60/40 to rafale

OVERALL the rafale RCS. engines. SPECTRA EW suites and new weapons are world class.

F16/52 are STIL good but no longer the BEES KNEES

 

[Donatello]

some members are just chest thumping when the contract has not even signed, let alone any induction of the first aircraft.

 

[dbc]

The G Limit is only an issue if you go into close combat and obviously no Rafale will do it with bombs and fuel tanks, but as said, it could engage air targets in BVR ranges.

Not quite, aggressive maneuvering, punching out chaff bundles and jamming is used in combination to break radar lock. Therefore, the number of G's an aircraft can pull and maintain becomes crucial to survivability not just in close combat but even at greater distance against enemy fighters and SAM. The following statement is universally true in well defended airspace. Aircraft on a strike mission will avoid drawing attention to itself, the launch of a BVR missile will be noticed by the enemy. The launching aircraft will in turn be targeted by the enemy jeopardizing the strike mission. Remember the enemy's primary objective is to neutralize the strike force so they can save their runways, fuel depot, bridges and other crucial infrastructure. The job of those providing cover for the strike force is to make sure the enemy's attention is forced away from the strike aircraft. You need to think beyond Libya, suppressing Vietnam era unmanned SAM batteries using GBU-12's and AASM on flat terrain is not a scenario that India is likely to encounter.

The main point however was, that it's a fighter developed with all necessary techs and systems build in, which makes it simpler to switch between roles, unlike older generation of fighters. An F16 or F18SH for excample needs a dedicated SEAD version, with special sensors and jamming pods to do the mission. These are not available every time and in lower numbers, which means more time is needed till the mission could be completed. For Rafale however, that is no issue since any Rafale comes with the same SPECTRA capabilities and any Rafale loaded with AASM could be used in this role.

Less than 20% of USAF F-16 pilots are qualified for SEAD missions. SEAD is highly specialized mission that requires a great deal of training. The reason for this is quite simple, pilots that undertake such missions require the skills of a trained EWO (electronic warfare officer), training on specialized weapons and sensors, training on tactics to defeat every type of SAM known to man. The tactics that work against an SA-2 may not work against an SA-8. The aircraft may be SEAD capable but if the pilot is not then the aircrafts added capability is a wasted. Think of it this way, the US has nearly 2000 F-16's while the French have less than a 100. The modular approach is cheaper for the US, while the 'built in' approach is sustainable for the French.

Finally, you need to think about all the nations that operate the F-16 and the specialized capability nations like the US, Japan, Israel, Norway, Turkey, Korea and Taiwan to name a few have added to the F-16. Do you really think the French working alone on the Rafale are more competitive?

 

[PoKeMon]

Obviously it is very hard.

Offcourse for you.

It took close to a decade for MMRCA contract allotment;
oh yeah ... still not signed is it ?

F-16 Blk 52 is better than anything on offer to India in MMRCA even better than F-16 Blk 70 aka IN. Now cheers and sleep well.

 

[Storm Force]

Dont be surprised if some MEMBER ON PDF opens a NEW THREAD F16/52 V FGFA in 2018 trying to explain how the F16/52 is 85% or 75% as efficient as the FGFA.

These posters need to understand the F16/52 was a GREAT PLANE in 1995

IS stil a GOOD plane in 2013

BUT wil be average/useful in 2017 WHEN so many better much improved fighters will EXIST

 

[sancho]

Therefore, the number of G's an aircraft can pull and maintain becomes crucial to survivability

Funny to read this from someone who claimed the opposite wrt the G-Limits of the F18SH. Not to mention that this counts only if the fighter is under attack, otherwhise as stated (and even proven during exercises), Rafale remains on it's path to attack ground targets, while engaging air targets at the same time!

Edit:

Report from ATLC exercises:

a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.
On 6 December, a MICA has been assigned its target - indeed virtually destroyed - only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify - and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope - some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the F-16 CJ American specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.

The following statement is universally true in well defended airspace. Aircraft on a strike mission will avoid drawing attention to itself, the launch of a BVR missile will be noticed by the enemy.

That's where Rafale has a critical advantage over all other currently available fighters, since it can use MICA IR passively up to BVR ranges, only guided by FSO or SPECTRA and remains hard to detect.

Finally, you need to think about all the nations that operate the F-16 and the specialized capability nations like the US, Japan, Israel, Norway, Turkey, Korea and Taiwan to name a few have added to the F-16. Do you really think the French working alone on the Rafale are more competitive?

Besides your usual US biased points that are not worth replying, you fail to understand that the Rafale was developed way later and with way different point of view on roles and how to take the on. Those F16 and F18s might be upgraded with mordern techs, but were developed in a time were dedicated strike fighters, escorts and external ECM pods were needed.
Today multi role fighters, with internal systems are the standard, the use of ARM has prvoved to be ineffective, since modern SAM missiles remains a threat, when they are simply guided by another radar. Soon we will see electronic attack capability via jamming with AESA radars and AESA modules of the EW systems, which deletes external jamming pods as well...
All these are examples from changing design, techs and tactics and the French simply were the first to realize that and to go that way. There is no need anymore for spcialised fighter varients anymore, that's why neither the EF, nor the F35 will get dedicated recon or SEAD versions with ARMs anymore, although they replace Tornados and F16CJs in exactly these roles too!
Btw, this will only be the way to do SEAD for a short time only, since UCAVs and drones will take over this role as well and that's another improvement of design, techs and tactics in modern air war fare.

 

[sancho]

F16 PILOTS REMARK in the world class forum the F16 NET



mmrca contest by india PROVED THIS above remark

TYPHOON RAFALE & F18 super hornet ALL CAME out way ahead of the F16/MIG35/GRIPEN NG

The one has nothing to do with the other, since the results of a fighter competition are dependent on the requirements of the country and not necessarily on the capabilities of the fighter. The Rafale F3+ surely is superior to the F16 B52+, but compared to the Block 60 with similar techs (AESA, IRST, advanced EWS), the difference is not that big anymore. And that's what Oscar explained as well, such an F16 with comparable weapon package will be able to provide a customer with very good performance as well. One reason I see the EF 2020 (with AESA, CFTs and Cruise missiles) as the better option for the UAE than Rafale, since that EF and the F16 B60 would form a better hi lo mix for an air force, than Rafale and F16 Block 60s, because both offer similar advantages.

The MMRCA showed that Rafale was the best suited fighter for India, but it's excellent results in several different evaluations all over the world showed that it's currently one of the best fighters available, but as we all know, beeing the best alone is not enough to seal the deals.

 

[dbc]

Funny to read this from someone who claimed the opposite wrt the G-Limits of the F18SH. Not to mention that this counts only if the fighter is under attack, otherwhise as stated (and even proven during exercises), Rafale remains on it's path to attack ground targets, while engaging air targets at the same time!

This is probably my fifth post on this forum buddy, my wife probably talked about the Hornet. The super bugs G limit is a software limit that can be overridden by the pilot if needed. All US fighters can pull as many G's as the Rafale, the bug can handle more G's and AoA fully loaded than any US fighter in service today.

Report from ATLC exercises:

a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.
On 6 December, a MICA has been assigned its target - indeed virtually destroyed - only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify - and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope - some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the F-16 CJ American specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.

You really believe a pair of Rafale engaged and killed 10 fighters and 6 ground targets simultaneously? Sorry buddy I thought you were smarter than the average PDF member - guess I was wrong about you.

 

[Gentelman]

Rafael in newely developed platform while F-16 is gained from years of experiance....
its pods make it a good plane...
Rafael would have edge bt this rafael version can't be compared.......
yeah if u disband all pods of both rafael and F-16C/D them may Rafael would have edge....

 

[Cherokee]

Rafael in newely developed platform while F-16 is gained from years of experiance....
its pods make it a good plane...
Rafael would have edge bt this rafael version can't be compared.......
yeah if u disband all pods of both rafael and F-16C/D them may Rafael would have edge....

Thank you . Maybe if you would have read this thread would would have realized what the discussion is going on about . Take your time and read posts before jumping in in technical discussions .

 

[Gentelman]

Thank you . Maybe if you would have read this thread would would have realized what the discussion is going on about . Take your time and read posts before jumping in in technical discussions .

Don't have spare time..
just came here to give opinion.....
and seriously i know nothing about Rafael expect pods.....
soo it wouldnot be fine for me to talk on matters which i don't know...

 

[sancho]

This is probably my fifth post on this forum buddy, my wife probably talked about the Hornet. The super bugs G limit is a software limit that can be overridden by the pilot if needed. All US fighters can pull as many G's as the Rafale, the bug can handle more G's and AoA fully loaded than any US fighter in service today.

In that case, it must have been your wife and no, she was talking about the SH, because Boeing officially declares it with less than 8G and that was an issue for IAF as well.

You really believe a pair of Rafale engaged and killed 10 fighters and 6 ground targets simultaneously? Sorry buddy I thought you were smarter than the average PDF member - guess I was wrong about you.

It doesn't matter if it's 2 or 10, the fact is, that it can do attacks much more effective than other fighters can and that was shown during the Indian and Brazilian trials as well. Btw, I don't see myself to be smarter than the average PDF member, so I don't take it as an offence here, but I love to take on US biased statements on their fighters, just ask your wife about it.

 

[dbc]

It doesn't matter if it's 2 or 10, the fact is, that it can do attacks much more effective than other fighters can and that was shown during the Indian and Brazilian trials as well. Btw, I don't see myself to be smarter than the average PDF member, so I don't take it as an offence here, but I love to take on US biased statements on their fighters, just ask your wife about it.

Ok buddy the Rafale is a weapon of mass destruction, please return to the Rafale fan boy thread and spread the good news.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

Now that depends the F-16 BLK52 that is designed for the USAF or the "Tuned down" export versions we give to other countries? if the latter then I would say Rafale if the former then it would really depend on combat scenarios no doubt the F-16 would win in a dogfight however in terms of long range a2a combat a lot of factors like ECM/ECCM, radar function, pilot awareness etc are all factors that can decide either outcome.