RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[Storm Force]

ANTIBODY

100 F16s a AMERICAN fighter to be used by PAF against USA no1 long term strategic ally. IN SOUTH ASIA

USA that MISTRUSTS GOP ISI and the ARMY

r u sure YOU want 25% combat fleet reliant on USA

 

[dbc]

You just gave the reasons why India should not deal with USA ..... Just keep them in contact with some petty deals

Thank you for those 'petty deals', we appreciate the crumbs you throw our way

 

[dbc]

India had expected some amount of backlash. The Americans do want to get into the Indian market in a major way. What we did was a strong decision based on lack of confidence, maybe even self-confidence....<snip> <garbage>

Your post does not make any sense. And as to 'Rafael' or Typhoon being superior I guess you missed the earlier link I posted in which your ACM admitted that wasn't the case.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Just another hype to make us believe that our F16 C/D are comparable to new planes preventing us from developing a strategy to own more leathal planes

I say invest in Su-30 , and J11

 

[raavan]

The HAF pilots of the F-16 block52+ and F-4E AUP had the chance to train with the Rafales M of the CHARLES DE GAULLE which visited Greece

4 Rafale M(marine) F1(T1) from the CDG aircraft carrier square-off against 4 F-16 blk 52+. A Greek Erieye was feeding info to the French ACC, and monitoring the simulated battle for the Greeks. The BVR tactics of the Frech were not impressive, and after some succesful and unsuccesful launches, the Greeks were in the "no-escape" zone of their AIM 120's. The Greeks had a high percentage of launches to downings, while the French percentage was lower, but with a higher range. The Rafales can also fire on 4 targets simultaniously, while the F-16 can fire only on 2. The Rafale can track 40 targets, with prioritizing. All in all, any advantages that the Rafale's have were deemed as marginal in this AA batle with the blk 52+.
Also said the French had a fairly serious problem with the mission computer, but that was the only problem. The capabilities of the radar to locate targets, and the ECM and ECCM suites are very impressive, capable of giving a complete view of the operational combat environment without AWACS. It can locate enemy radar signals to their precise location from over 200 miles away. F2 and F3 will have many vast improuvements from experience gained from the F1.

the Rafale has also had a chance to train against US ACC, with F-14's and F-18's, as well as the F-16's. The F-14 and F-18's were easy prey. Afgainst the F-18's, the Rafale's easily out-maneuvred the F-18. The US did not want to engage the French at BVR, not wanting to compare AIM-120's to Mica's.

the aircraft our boys faced were M version F1standard

the major points :

1) The lack of RWRs in the F-16s was a problem; the French fighters aborted when they detected a lockon; the Greek fighters were not able to do that.

2) The F-16's AGP-68(V)9 worked extremely well and gave the HAF the ability to detect the French from quite a long distance and coordinate maneuvers at long range via Link-16

3) Due to its PESA architecture, RBE2 range is inferior to AESA; based on performance in the exercise HAF estimates its range is not superior to the [mechanically scanned] AGP-68(V)9. However the RBE2 was, as expected, more flexible, giving it the ability to track more targets simultaneously.

4) The French requested a second exercise after the conclusion of this one, which speaks well of 115CW and its F-16 Block52+

5) The ECCM of the 52s worked smoothly when the Rafales used their Spectra ECM system. The active jamming on the Rafales was not able to break the lock of the APG-68(V)9s.

6) The French pilots reported all their shots as a shoot-down regardless of range. The HAF improved its performance placing the majority of its shots in the "Noescape" zone of the AMRAAMs. So the French aircraft got more shots, but the HAF's ones were much more likely to result in an actual kill.

7) In all,the Rafale showed a marginal superiority but with a large numbr of low PK shots ow probability of success , unlike the Block 52s which achieved fewer shots but all in their missiles' no escape zone. All in all, the Rafale had only a marginal advantage in this exercise with the blk 52+.


Certainly, the HAF aircraft in no way dominated the Rafales. But the Rafales' performance fell far short of the claims often made about it.

8)one of our EMB-145H worked closely with the CDG carrier,testing its Link16 and Link11...After its take-off from its base,established a connection within 10 mins with the French carrier ...thus certifying its capabilities in net centric ops ,something usefull other co-trainings with the French in the future.

ur way of comparing is flawed. u will never know the true capability of a radar in an exercise. IAF has repeatedly declared this for SU-30 MKI.

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

I have been tracking this thread including 14/15... maybe my comprehension of the written word is not as good; feel free to spell out your ideas/thoughts as to why US will OR will not do something?

Am I correct in sensing that my Indian friends have made some premature assumptions about what US will NEVER do and then gone public with 600+ technical criteria based decision that informs premier American defence companies that they are just not as good as the LAST Gaullist experiment?

Consider this; if I had written on this forum on 12th September 2001, "in less than a decade Indian mirage 2000H will have to contend with newest vipers armed with AIM 120 in its own backyard".......one of you guys would have said read such and such as to why that would NEVER happen. Another would have said Oh! I am shaking in my blue suedes! .......you get what I am putting down?

So if Indians want to play the old game and be on their own ( but using French equipment) that s fine. US can also play another old game it calls keeping the strategic regional balance intact for peace.

Of course US could play a new game and make Bangladesh Or Sri Lanka its new best friend.
Did you guys know that Karzai is asking for F16s too? ...Now walk that logic through.............to the end.
And yes US has supplied Red China with weapons in the past. You or anyone else cannot predict the future on that.
When US gets exasperated it does take matters into its own hands. Dare I say Abbottabad?
But that will NOT define future US - Pakistan relations. Let's wait and see!!!

 

[dbc]

Hmmm DB it seems you are a bit upset about the MRCA decision...Anyways i can understand why however certain things i would like to clarify...

The reasons offered thus far for rejecting the American planes are as TVVELVEMO$ put it 'disingenuous'.

Good luck implementing that part....move that will reduce Indian footprint in US companies is not going to be beneficial...

Are you kidding? Indian firms have systematically abused US visa rules at the cost of American jobs, not to mention Indians now represent one of the largest illegal immigrant community in the US.

 

[deckingraj]

The reasons offered thus far for rejecting the American planes are as TVVELVEMO$ put it 'disingenuous'.

Well that is a matter of perception...Technical reasons have been given and let the companies seek more details if they are not satisfied...

Are you kidding? Indian firms have systematically abused US visa rules at the cost of American jobs, not to mention Indians now represent one of the largest illegal immigrant community in the US.

With all due respect this is a mere myopic view of looking at the issue...Sounds a good bait for political world but why being so gullible???? So called outsourcing and Indian companies stealing job is a myth...It is like China steal American jobs in the field of manufacturing....b/w tighten up the law if you feel so but as said before if you go by economic pundits/industry experts any such thing will not be beneficial primarily for American Firms...Also don't forget that American firms reduce their costs a big time by dealing with Indian counterparts which makes them very competative - which in turn creates more jobs....In short their is other side of the coin....

I am still waiting for your assertion about India not opening her market as promised...Please care to share data on that as well...

 

[deckingraj]

I have been tracking this thread including 14/15... maybe my comprehension of the written word is not as good; feel free to spell out your ideas/thoughts as to why US will OR will not do something?

Am I correct in sensing that my Indian friends have made some premature assumptions about what US will NEVER do and then gone public with 600+ technical criteria based decision that informs premier American defence companies that they are just not as good as the LAST Gaullist experiment?

Consider this; if I had written on this forum on 12th September 2001, "in less than a decade Indian mirage 2000H will have to contend with newest vipers armed with AIM 120 in its own backyard".......one of you guys would have said read such and such as to why that would NEVER happen. Another would have said Oh! I am shaking in my blue suedes! .......you get what I am putting down?

So if Indians want to play the old game and be on their own ( but using French equipment) that s fine. US can also play another old game it calls keeping the strategic regional balance intact for peace.

Of course US could play a new game and make Bangladesh Or Sri Lanka its new best friend.
Did you guys know that Karzai is asking for F16s too? ...Now walk that logic through.............to the end.
And yes US has supplied Red China with weapons in the past. You or anyone else cannot predict the future on that.
When US gets exasperated it does take matters into its own hands. Dare I say Abbottabad?
But that will NOT define future US - Pakistan relations. Let's wait and see!!!

Well of course anything can happen...Just to let you know we never had great relations with US and relations improved only a decade ago...Reason was simple - both countries find their interests converging...Now if you think US would pin this to one deal then i would wish the relation should end sooner than later...b/w this deal was worth $11 Billion and as far as i know we already have inked $5 Billion worth with them and counting...

However there is no existential threat if relations move back to what they were...In short we want to be treated equal and will not compromise on things where we don't want to.....we are not going to be a next UK/Japan

 

[dbc]

Well that is a matter of perception...Technical reasons have been given and let the companies seek more details if they are not satisfied...





With all due respect this is a mere myopic view of looking at the issue...Sounds a good bait for political world but why being so gullible???? So called outsourcing and Indian companies stealing job is a myth...It is like China steal American jobs in the field of manufacturing....b/w tighten up the law if you feel so but as said before if you go by economic pundits/industry experts any such thing will not be beneficial primarily for American Firms...Also don't forget that American firms reduce their costs a big time by dealing with Indian counterparts which makes them very competative - which in turn creates more jobs....In short their is other side of the coin....

I am still waiting for your assertion about India not opening her market as promised...Please care to share data on that as well...

You're all over the place, what does visa abuse or illegal immigration have to do with outsourcing?

As for technical reasons for the elimination of American aircrafts, the two American firms have as recently as le bourget 2011 stated they have not received any clarification.

 

[khanasifm]

Most of the 4.5 G a/c like Rafael, typhoon, and 5G F22 are designed to operate at any altitude, 60K feet and below to take advantage of super crusing and kinetic energy based BVR engagement besides sensors.

3+ /4G like F15 and F15E, Su-30 etc. still are limited to medium altitude below 40k feet turning combat or BVR. Sensor can be added to theses platform too. Super-crusing is also missing but can be added requiring major investments in old airframes.

 

[thinkingcap81]

So if Indians want to play the old game and be on their own ( but using French equipment) that s fine. US can also play another old game it calls keeping the strategic regional balance intact for peace.

Of course US could play a new game and make Bangladesh Or Sri Lanka its new best friend.
Did you guys know that Karzai is asking for F16s too? ...Now walk that logic through.............to the end.
And yes US has supplied Red China with weapons in the past. You or anyone else cannot predict the future on that.
When US gets exasperated it does take matters into its own hands. Dare I say Abbottabad?
But that will NOT define future US - Pakistan relations. Let's wait and see!!!

Off-topic post...

@TVVELVEMO$: What you are saying will be true if in the long term India and Pakistan have the same importance in the globalised world. Even if we achieve half the potential that others say we should have, US will not do anything openly detrimental to our interests. It did not happen before, why now? Behind the scenes diplomacy is a different ball game. For whatever reason even F35 was offered and within a decade F16 blk52+ will be not as potent as Chinese J10 or Indian upgrades. F16 blk52+ is an interim solution and China will surely take over.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Your post does not make any sense. And as to 'Rafael' or Typhoon being superior I guess you missed the earlier link I posted in which your ACM admitted that wasn't the case.

DBC, indications are that US fighters easily scored over their European counterparts in electronics. Rafael or Typhoon is superior in the long term --- you may mock their bang for buck.

You seem to be getting increasingly angry these days. Please do not forget that Nixon threatened India in '71. How do you think that a traditionally non-aligned country like India will get locked in an embrace with US so quickly?

You also do not seem to understand the dynamics of corruption. Just because corruption is prevalent at all levels it does not automatically mean that corruption can compromise national security. You do your arguments no good by regularly insinuating about Sonia Gandhi's Italian connections. That is a silly way of looking at it.

All the hardening you are referring to has been taken into account and we will be planning accordingly. The MMRCA deal is important --- but not as important as the overall economic engagement. It is also a fact that we are not being consulted about the Afghanistan plan. So US too has not demonstrated a willingness to engage India. We do not puke at you for that. We still respect you.

Thanks for the NSG waiver and please forget about the nitty-gritty details of the deal. Things are bigger than MMRCA. Finally please understand that a significant chunk of Indians (even non-left) are not unhappy with the MMRCA choice. Hinging all diplomacy on this rejection is puerile.

PS: Thanks for reading this 'garbage'.

 

[kingdurgaking]

DBC, indications are that US fighters easily scored over their European counterparts in electronics. Rafael or Typhoon is superior in the long term --- you may mock their bang for buck.

You seem to be getting increasingly angry these days. Please do not forget that Nixon threatened India in '71. How do you think that a traditionally non-aligned country like India will get locked in an embrace with US so quickly?

All the hardening you are referring to has been taken into account and we will be planning accordingly. The MMRCA deal is important --- but not as important as the overall economic engagement. It is also a fact that we are not being consulted about the Afghanistan plan. So US too has not demonstrated a willingness to engage India. We do not puke at you for that. We still respect you.

Thanks for the NSG waiver and please forget about the nitty-gritty details of the deal. Things are bigger than MMRCA. Finally please understand that a significant chunk of Indians (even non-left) are not unhappy with the MMRCA choice. Hinging all diplomacy on this rejection is puerile.

PS: Thanks for reading this 'garbage'.

Do you think DBC can understand this? never.... As per her argument MMRCA is not fair.. and we are stealing her jobs and opened the economy to US.. but reality is different.. MMRCA was a very fair argument in which IAF played the role not the government.. US assumed political will with technology will always win deal.. but MoD simply did the real aspect.. During testing the vendors are briefed on every stage that is why EADS always triumphed it is leading the show... secondly the offset and ToT US will never do it and will enforce monitoring about 10 squadron which they did even for VVIP planes.. secondly on stealing jobs.. we are not.. we are just provided an opportunity and we are just utilizing it... where as US made a big mistake by moving the industry to China.. which they think is fair.. and strict VISA rules are applied only to Indians.. Our jobs can be snatched any day from us but as per manufacturing it wont..

 

[thinkingcap81]

During testing the vendors are briefed on every stage that is why EADS always triumphed it is leading the show... secondly the offset and ToT US will never do it and will enforce monitoring about 10 squadron which they did even for VVIP planes..

This is quite true. And US obtrusive monitoring is a political hot potato in India.