Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price

[desimorty]

who wants to bet France is the one who just says F-it, and pulls the Rafale out of India.

I mean India had leverage when Rafale had no export orders, and a prospect of a mega 126 fighter deal with India was just too good to be true.

but now Egypt and Qatar have ordered the Rafale!! between the two of them 48 birds!!

you can bet more Arab nations are going to order the Rafale.

India blew it.

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price

In all honesty, I think the Rafale deal is more political than anything. A lot more to it. Perhaps to keep PAF from acquiring it. Or perhaps more likily the idea to get this aircraft was during the 2001 standoff, and since its been more than a decade, the prospect of Pak-fas are more realistic. Also considering the fact, the Pak-fa will have more use, and will be far easier to produce locally than the Rafale.
Unintentionally, this is bad joke. On the French. haha

 

[GURU DUTT]

In all honesty, I think the Rafale deal is more political than anything. A lot more to it. Perhaps to keep PAF from acquiring it. Or perhaps more likily the idea to get this aircraft was during the 2001 standoff, and since its been more than a decade, the prospect of Pak-fas are more realistic. Also considering the fact, the Pak-fa will have more use, and will be far easier to produce locally than the Rafale.
Unintentionally, this is bad joke. On the French. haha

lolzz what a joke bro ?

with all deu respect to PAF and pakistan fact is they dont have money to buy J10s and you think they will aquire rafales which are more than four times the price of rafales

rafale is saught after deu to its load carrying capacity and omni role poweress and SPECTRA suite than anything else

as for PAKFA they are the real deal rafales were just stop gap but its been dragged for too long had rafales been inducted couple of years back it would have been good now for future its a waste

 

[Bratva]

what the hell???? Small Example. So if you have money would you pay 500 rs for a KG of Apple ???

Let qatar and GCC buy 500 planes... We're not asking for any discounts here... Qatar paid 7 billion for 24 jets, we're buying 12 more than Qatar how do you expect us to pay 5 billion for 12 Jets... do you think we're crazy???



Dude you can't buy Assets for Navy or Army or police fom canceling the contract of Air force... its their budget not Army's or Navy's. if they feel it suits their needs then let them have it

7 billion divided by 24 = 291.6 million per aircraft multiply 36 = 10.5 billions add upon the 50 percent offset clause + maintenance+weaponary+ customization Indians asking wil make grand total 10.5 + 1.5 = 12 billion dollar.

This is a logic. How come french are fleecing you ?

 

[$@rJen]

10.5 + 1.5 = 12 billion dollar.

what's the 1.5 billion dollar ??

 

[Bratva]

what's the 1.5 billion dollar ??

Added costs due to offset clause and specific customization.

 

[$@rJen]

Added coasts due to offset clause and specific customization.

DM is trying to finsih the deal with offset inclusive in 10 billion and as per customization lets wait and see because as of now we're also removing some unwanted features off the rafales to reduce the cost.

 

[Bratva]

DM is trying to finsih the deal with offset inclusive in 10 billion and as per customization lets wait and see because as of now we're also removing some unwanted features off the rafales to reduce the cost.

French wants to earn their profit as well. Remove the offset clause you will get your deal at your desired price pronto.

 

[$@rJen]

French wants to earn their profit as well. Remove the offset clause you will get your deal at your desired price pronto.

the offset they're going to do in india is not a Aid but their investment they'll make more money of it. and the offset is the lifeline for the future Rafale order which is going to be under make in India initiative

 

[desimorty]

lolzz what a joke bro ?

with all deu respect to PAF and pakistan fact is they dont have money to buy J10s and you think they will aquire rafales which are more than four times the price of rafales

rafale is saught after deu to its load carrying capacity and omni role poweress and SPECTRA suite than anything else

as for PAKFA they are the real deal rafales were just stop gap but its been dragged for too long had rafales been inducted couple of years back it would have been good now for future its a waste

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 3

Hey, they've bought big ticket items before and have actually thought of it at one point or another. They did buy the F-16 upgrades and AMRAAMs. AFAIK J-10s, I wish they would buy them. They'll learn about the problems of AL-41 engines.
As far as OMNI role, thats a joke. What you mean is swing role and that was available on the MKI before Rafale and Typhoon. Spectra is another joke. Its electronic warfare at its finest but cream not substance. MKI also has 8 ton payload, which is why they have strengthen landing gear, something the PLAAFs is only recently acquiring.
So you may want to wonder why they allowed the deal to drag on for 2 decades! if the MOD serious they'd would have bought immediately.
Reality, the threat perception isn't there any more.
PAF doesn't stand a chance against IAs new accurate arty and command structure. You'll have PAF fighting 2 days until, they run out of airfields. And if your using fighter jets against Pakistan, chances are it'll go nuclear!
In which case, NBC wargames, training India does will come in handy.
Pakistan has no nuclear policy, aside, "we will use it, before we loose it"
The only other threat would be the PLAAF. PLA/CCP have second strike capability and no first use policy. Meaning, you get an airwar, even limited the PLAAF doesn't have good chance.
500+ flankers the PLAAF have are mostly half a gen behind what IAF has with MKIs. Not to mention training and doctrine. Consider the airfield limitations of PLAAF visa IAF, and its one sided. PLAAF may be bigger, with bigger budget, but the defensive advantage is IAFs.
There is no hurry to arm, just to replace the mothballed equipment. Best MOD keeps being frugal than be over spending like the PLAAF.

The only real concern for the Indian military, is providing realistic options to the President/PM and being of actual use, rather then a show piece. Since the cold war is over, a new ERA of threats has emerged. Either keep adapting or hide in your closet.

 

[egodoc222]

So indians taunts Pakistan on lack of funds on F-16 threads, but the hard cash they say they have is no where to find when Rafael is in consideration and asking for discount on discount.
its been a deacade they have jumping about the mother of all deals and look everything is still on the negotiation table.
On the hand Pakistan will be getting its delievery of F16, AH-1Z vipers and MI-35 in 2017

Sadly we don't beg for aid...like some countries do!! It's our hard earned money...we will not pay till we get em for "right"price!!

 

[PoKeMon]

I think they can. It went from 126 Rafales now to 36 Rafales, and even more delays and uncertainty.

like I said Dassault found customers in the Middle East who are willing to sign the contract ASAP, and not drag the process out for years..

you can only waste someones time for so long.

How are you so certain that its just 36 and no more follow ups are possible?

If you see the Indian tendency, we go by in tranches. We first ordered only 50 Su-30 and now we are talking about 300+.

This saga of immense length is getting extremely boring。

Our Indian friends should refrain from posting any “news”about the Rafale deal till it is a done deal。

True.

Its not boring but irritating now.

 

[C130]

How are you so certain that its just 36 and no more follow ups are possible?

If you see the Indian tendency, we go by in tranches. We first ordered only 50 Su-30 and now we are talking about 300+.



True.

Its not boring but irritating now.

I can't be 100% and never put much thought about a follow-up

but going from the MMRCAs 126 to 36 is quite omnious wouldn't you say??

unless it's intended for India to just buy 36 and then build 96 or more in India in the future.

problem still is the price.

India lost it's leverage and I doubt France is any hurry to make a deal with India.

they might come down 10% but not 30% on the final IMO

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hey, they've bought big ticket items before and have actually thought of it at one point or another. They did buy the F-16 upgrades and AMRAAMs. AFAIK J-10s, I wish they would buy them. They'll learn about the problems of AL-41 engines.
As far as OMNI role, thats a joke. What you mean is swing role and that was available on the MKI before Rafale and Typhoon. Spectra is another joke. Its electronic warfare at its finest but cream not substance. MKI also has 8 ton payload, which is why they have strengthen landing gear, something the PLAAFs is only recently acquiring.
So you may want to wonder why they allowed the deal to drag on for 2 decades! if the MOD serious they'd would have bought immediately.
Reality, the threat perception isn't there any more.
PAF doesn't stand a chance against IAs new accurate arty and command structure. You'll have PAF fighting 2 days until, they run out of airfields. And if your using fighter jets against Pakistan, chances are it'll go nuclear!
In which case, NBC wargames, training India does will come in handy.
Pakistan has no nuclear policy, aside, "we will use it, before we loose it"
The only other threat would be the PLAAF. PLA/CCP have second strike capability and no first use policy. Meaning, you get an airwar, even limited the PLAAF doesn't have good chance.
500+ flankers the PLAAF have are mostly half a gen behind what IAF has with MKIs. Not to mention training and doctrine. Consider the airfield limitations of PLAAF visa IAF, and its one sided. PLAAF may be bigger, with bigger budget, but the defensive advantage is IAFs.
There is no hurry to arm, just to replace the mothballed equipment. Best MOD keeps being frugal than be over spending like the PLAAF.

The only real concern for the Indian military, is providing realistic options to the President/PM and being of actual use, rather then a show piece. Since the cold war is over, a new ERA of threats has emerged. Either keep adapting or hide in your closet.

1. most of the 500 odd AIM 120c & 18 Blk52 PAF got were parts of the eralier deals even then if they bought it so what ?

2. OMNI role meals doing air interception SEAD & DEAD missions in a single sortie and at the same time meaning fighting enemy fighters and destroying enemy radar instalations and SAM sites at the same time swing role means ability to change from SEAD/DEAD to air interception but doing only one job at a tile

3.SPECTRA is no joke its the next level of ever evolving radar Vs ECM/EW cat and mouse game where SPECTRA Bieng passive suite can detect enemy threats and attack them while still doing jamming and anty radar electronick wzaarderry (sorry im no sientist so expaling in layman terms) so yes its a totally diffrent system which only USA has right now other than france but US systems are not for export to non USA allies

4.PAF wont survive day one forget streching it to couple of day or say a week as all pakistani sites are already marked and fall under 50-150 KM from indian border and before the air cavallerry proceeds it will be bhramos , prhaar & prithvies that will spear head the indian attack rafales if they are induced will follow closelly to sanitise the pakistani airspace of its radars and SAM batteries

5.as for PLAAF well there are mighty himlayas in between and only way for china to occupy india or subject india will be use of long range cruise and billistic missiles and vice versa and there is a reason why M2Ks & Mig29s, jags + only 40% of MKIs will be avilable for pakistani theater rest are for chinese theater with FGFA/PAKFA/AMCA as and when they come

6. all wars are started on table and end on table so your right with the last point cheers mate

 

[Blue Marlin]

who wants to bet France is the one who just says F-it, and pulls the Rafale out of India.

I mean India had leverage when Rafale had no export orders, and a prospect of a mega 126 fighter deal with India was just too good to be true.

but now Egypt and Qatar have ordered the Rafale!! between the two of them 48 birds!!

you can bet more Arab nations are going to order the Rafale.

India blew it.

the uae is looking at taking 60 of them! no tot, or return in investment, just give me the money and here is your jet. and do one. don't forget to come back for parts though. and mbda have some nice missiles too!

 

[PoKeMon]

I can't be 100% and never put much thought about a follow-up

but going from the MMRCAs 126 to 36 is quite omnious wouldn't you say??

unless it's intended for India to just buy 36 and then build 96 or more in India in the future.

problem still is the price.

India lost it's leverage and I doubt France is any hurry to make a deal with India.

they might come down 10% but not 30% on the final IMO

Look that's not how big business happen.

For an e.g. I work for one of the Big4 consulting firm and we are currently doing business with a client on zero profit basis. We have staffed more people than we are charging from client to meet client requirement and in time. The only reason is we are looking at bigger chunk in future and an entry to client business which is huge.

Its not the standalone deal but the return business which makes or breaks a firm. Sometimes you have to invest first and then milk not the other way round.

India has not lost any leverage till its marked as biggest importer of arms. You can't look at a deal in isolation.