Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price

[GURU DUTT]

Look that's not how big business happen.

For an e.g. I work for one of the Big4 consulting firm and we are currently doing business with a client on zero profit basis. We have staffed more people than we are charging from client to meet client requirement and in time. The only reason is we are looking at bigger chunk in future and an entry to client business which is huge.

Its not the standalone deal but the return business which makes or breaks a firm. Sometimes you have to invest first and then milk not the other way round.

India has not lost any leverage till its marked as biggest importer of arms. You can't look at a deal in isolation.

to saab ji in the end rafale ayenge ke nahee aur ayenge to takreeban kitne me

 

[PoKeMon]

to saab ji in the end rafale ayenge ke nahee aur ayenge to takreeban kitne me

Rafales have more chances to come. If the deadlock is between 68 and 90, assume anything like 75 +/- 3.

I am expecting 54 Rafales minimum. The number can increase if LCA Mk1A proves unworthy and FGFA seems a distant dream.

36 + 18 follow up of the shelf if rest all works (LCA + FGFA)

36 + 90 (Make in India) - If we mesh up badly.

 

[airmarshal]

Discount of 30%!!! Wow!! Are you buying jeans or jets?

 

[Blue Marlin]

I agree that we were in a very bad position 4 years ago,but thanks to the Egyptians,this has changed. Negociations are in final stages to sell 60 aircrafts to the UAE !


I thought India was rich ?
No,seriously,how is Parikar going to justify an aircraft at 270 million/per piece at the parliament ?

question is, will it even go through?
i have not heard much of the uae deal, any idea why?
i have not heard much of our guys selling the typhoon?
i suspect something weird is gonna happen.

realistically more mki's and the mig 35's as well to bridge the gap between the mki and the lca. would be a great solution. you cant just go from Russian kit to western whenever you feel like it. india is getting to know that european kit is more expensive than American and obviously Russian kit. usually they can buy huge numbers of Russian jets as they are cheap. but its not gonna work like that with european kit it too expensive, your name would have to begin with either sheik or prince to have the money to buy bulk, the saudis are buying 84 f15'sa and 70 upgrade kits at $30 billion! i think a weaning process is required rather than just diving into the deep-end with out armbands

 

[Vergennes]

the uae is looking at taking 60 of them! no tot, or return in investment, just give me the money and here is your jet. and do one. don't forget to come back for parts though. and mbda have some nice missiles too!

Problem is that Indians wants 50% offsets and FULL TOT,major modifications and then say "it's expensive." They basically want a lamborghini,but for the price of a renault clio,you see the thing... On the other hand,we have another interested country that wants to buy more,and as you said,just wants to pay and get the jets.

question is, will it even go through?
i have not heard much of the uae deal, any idea why?
i have not heard much of our guys selling the typhoon?
i suspect something weird is gonna happen.

The latest discussions were one month ango,and Laurent Fabius said that the talks are continuing and he's optimistic,our defense minister said "things look positive". The last issue if I'm not wrong is about their Mirage2000 fleet,they somewhat want to get ride of them before buying new jets,and they are in talk to provide them to Iraq. (Or another country.)

 

[Blue Marlin]

Problem is that Indians wants 50% offsets and FULL TOT,major modifications and then say "it's expensive." They basically want a lamborghini,but for the price of a renault clio,you see the thing... On the other hand,we have another interested country that wants to buy more,and as you said,just wants to pay and get the jets.

now thats just messed up, i will try that when i get a car. i will walk into a lambo dealership with £12k and ask for a lp-720 and pay the 12k. but they think as that as the deposit, then im f*cked. i will ask my dad if he has £250k to lend me..
well i dont know pal, your mess/problem not ours, we can thank god they did not chose the typhoon as it will easily go beyond 2020.

The latest discussions were one month ango,and Laurent Fabius said that the talks are continuing and he's optimistic,our defense minister said "things look positive". The last issue if I'm not wrong is about their Mirage2000 fleet,they somewhat want to get ride of them before buying new jets,and they are in talk to provide them to Iraq. (Or another country.)

so that would mean if france would allow the uae to send the mk2's to iraq or whoever then that would pave way for the rafale? i read this a while ago around new years if im not mistaken. or is the uae try to do the same as india and get it with tot. mind you i doubt they will want to pay for clio prices as they wont know what a clio is .
the part in blue is just messing with ya!

Now my friend,we can say THIS,is daylight robbery.

how dare you! dont you ever question the saudi's, the light shine's out of their a*s and they are all knowing, they need them to bomb rebels (women and children) in yemen
(again being rhetorical) the part in brackets is true though. and they are the worst example of a muslim you can come across.

as far as im concerned buy more of them and get bankrupt soon please, so it will smack sense into them.
(ahh thats my rant over)

 

[Vergennes]

now thats just messed up, i will try that when i get a car. i will walk into a lambo dealership with £12k and ask for a lp-720 and pay the 12k. but they think as that as the deposit, then im f*cked. i will ask my dad if he has £250k to lend me..
well i dont know pal, your mess/problem not ours, we can thank god they did not chose the typhoon as it will easily go beyond 2020.

Yes,you have seen the mess with only 1 country. Now,imagine with 4 countries ! And in these 4 countries you have Italy which relations with India deteriorated because of the marines case. 2020? 2030.

so that would mean if france would allow the uae to send the mk2's to iraq or whoever then that would pave way for the rafale? i read this a while ago around new years if im not mistaken. or is the uae try to do the same as india and get it with tot. mind you i doubt they will want to pay for clio prices as they wont know what a clio is .
the part in blue is just messing with ya!

In the begining (When Sarkozy was still here),they wanted France to take back all their Mirage2000's,that means we would have to pay for their maintenance,find where to stock them,and then find someone who would buy them,which wasn't really possible.

how dare you! dont you ever question the saudi's, the light shine's out of their a*s and they are all knowing, they need them to bomb rebels (women and children) in yemen
(again being rhetorical) the part in brackets is true though. and they are the worst example of a muslim you can come across.

as far as im concerned buy more of them and get bankrupt soon please, so it will smack sense into them.
(ahh thats my rant over)

Well,sadly,as ong as they have the money,nobody gives two cent about what they are doing with our weapons.
If tomorrow I buy a car,the one that sold it to me wouldn't care about what i do with the car he just sold to me as long as he got the money. (Don't know if it's a good exemple,but that's almost the same.)

 

[randomradio]

I thought India was rich ?
No,seriously,how is Parikar going to justify an aircraft at 270 million/per piece at the parliament ?

Simple. He will give the flyaway cost of the Rafale, which is less than $85M. If an argument ensues, he will announce the Super MKI program is more expensive than Rafale.

7 billion divided by 24 = 291.6 million per aircraft multiply 36 = 10.5 billions add upon the 50 percent offset clause + maintenance+weaponary+ customization Indians asking wil make grand total 10.5 + 1.5 = 12 billion dollar.

This is a logic. How come french are fleecing you ?

The price is already below $9B. They are trying to bring it to below 8B.

Problem is that Indians wants 50% offsets and FULL TOT,major modifications and then say "it's expensive." They basically want a lamborghini,but for the price of a renault clio,you see the thing... On the other hand,we have another interested country that wants to buy more,and as you said,just wants to pay and get the jets.

You are making it sound very bad because you haven't counted all the billions IAF will invest in the future for future development of Rafale along with DGA. Other countries won't do that. Total IAF/IN orders for current versions will exceed total ADLA/MN units on order today. Minimum Make in India program is for 180 jets.

We won't have a buyer-seller relation, we will be business partners. And it will be in French favour because France will own IP even if India invests money for future development.

Anyway, 5 new countries are interested in Rafale apparently.

 

[kingofkings]

Discount of 30%!!! Wow!! Are you buying jeans or jets?

Strange .... Ever heard 100 % off offered to specific some one in the name of aid ....

 

[desimorty]

1. most of the 500 odd AIM 120c & 18 Blk52 PAF got were parts of the eralier deals even then if they bought it so what ?

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 3

The AMRAAMs are ahead in terms on technology to what ever the Chinese offer them (PAK) especially when you consider the F-16 to the FC-1. Which BTW is prone to Russian sanctions on engines. If PAF buys more FC-1s, its better for India than F-16s which are heavier payload ie possible and credible nuclear platforms.

2. OMNI role meals doing air interception SEAD & DEAD missions in a single sortie and at the same time meaning fighting enemy fighters and destroying enemy radar instalations and SAM sites at the same time swing role means ability to change from SEAD/DEAD to air interception but doing only one job at a tile

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 3

same time? What is it a video game? Ask a pilot. Your just reading a brochure from Dassault.
Drive a car? ever?
Difficulte to throw eggs out of car at pedistrans while involved in car chase. Cheat is co-pilot or a better computer. Thats the difference between MKI and Rafale.

3.SPECTRA is no joke its the next level of ever evolving radar Vs ECM/EW cat and mouse game where SPECTRA Bieng passive suite can detect enemy threats and attack them while still doing jamming and anty radar electronick wzaarderry (sorry im no sientist so expaling in layman terms) so yes its a totally diffrent system which only USA has right now other than france but US systems are not for export to non USA allies

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 3

Its not joke, but it is marketing gimmick. Spectra is ahead of the rest but if you know computers and wireless signals you'll know its cat and mouse. Its no silver bullet. Otherwise the Typhoon, Hornet, Falcrum and Falcons wouldn't have been considered in the tender.

4.PAF wont survive day one forget streching it to couple of day or say a week as all pakistani sites are already marked and fall under 50-150 KM from indian border and before the air cavallerry proceeds it will be bhramos , prhaar & prithvies that will spear head the indian attack rafales if they are induced will follow closelly to sanitise the pakistani airspace of its radars and SAM batteries

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 3

Depends on the restrictions set buy the PMs office. Remember Kargil? If it goes that far, they go nuclear. If not, IA hits them with HE with Agnis. Anything, but IA still needs a decent supply of ammo to do this. Large scale wars are out of the question with nukes involved. So whats to point of IAF in all this? Very limited. The IA is the real deal and goose that lays the golden egg. IN is also a survivor.

5.as for PLAAF well there are mighty himlayas in between and only way for china to occupy india or subject india will be use of long range cruise and billistic missiles and vice versa and there is a reason why M2Ks & Mig29s, jags + only 40% of MKIs will be avilable for pakistani theater rest are for chinese theater with FGFA/PAKFA/AMCA as and when they come

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 3

The Chinese will fight India through Pakistan. They've tried it before, they've done it with the Koreans and the Vietnamese. It'll depend on how stupid Pakistan truely is. The PLA artty is also restricted in Tibet. They're near the coast. How many missiles and trucks can they move to Tibet? How many can IA? The IAF also has a role. What ever being the case, its clear the PLA is at logistical disadvantage. Something the IA won't miss out on. Only problem is, the equipment and positions already occupied by PLA and vis versa.

6. all wars are started on table and end on table so your right with the last point cheers mate

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 3

Agreed. But take into account allies. Russia is whats called a family. In India and Russia, family is important. Same blood. So you spill blood for family. Hence why India has some nice relations with Vietnam, Mongolia, Tajikistan and Afghanistan. India's not known to be the back stabber. CCP does have this stigma. So, back to point, Russia is family. So when the French screw your "family" over some Mistral ships, you don't go back to the same shop and pretend nothing happened. Imagine going to dealership, where you inlaws got royally screwed. Not gonna haapen. Leaves a poor taste in ones mouth. Rafale deal started politically, ended politically. After all, who else would lease a nuclear submarine, state of the art to India?

Problem is that Indians wants 50% offsets and FULL TOT,major modifications and then say "it's expensive." They basically want a lamborghini,but for the price of a renault clio,you see the thing... On the other hand,we have another interested country that wants to buy more,and as you said,just wants to pay and get the jets.


Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 4

Thats not the problem. Thats just an excuse from the orginal problem. You screwed the Russians. Whats stopping you from screwing the Indians? Are you going to lease India a nuclear submarine or provide strategic level weapons?

 

[Vergennes]

Thats not the problem. Thats just an excuse from the orginal problem. You screwed the Russians. Whats stopping you from screwing the Indians? Are you going to lease India a nuclear submarine or provide strategic level weapons?

Of course we will screw you if you attack/invade a friendly nation or an ally,this will be the normal thing to do.
And..... there are no "friends","brothers","family" in this world,every country is just looking for their interests. Russians,French,Americans.... no one is different.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene

Guru, Lalay baqi baaten choor tu nay tau yeh bhayanak comparison dikhaya hai kay ankhon kay aagay undhera hi aa gea. Abay yeh tau waqee luteray hain yaar.

 

[desimorty]

Of course we will screw you if you attack/invade a friendly nation or an ally,this will be the normal thing to do.
And..... there are no "friends","brothers","family" in this world,every country is just looking for their interests. Russians,French,Americans.... no one is different.

Source: Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price | Page 4

Was it worth it for Crimea?
Because you just lost billions and thousands of jobs. How friendly was Ukraine and its double games?
2. There are friends, and their are brothers. They're made from necessity. Hence why France has brother called England and Germany even though you've had decades of war if not centuries with. Whos a "friendly" nation is South Asia? Pakistan? Because its ally on war on terror?
So I as again. Who would lease a nuclear submarine to the Worlds Largest democracy? and the nation of Gandhi?
And i'll answer it for you. Just Russia. Because they know India's ne'at (Intent).
Regardless of the above debate, as I've said. The Rafale deal, started politically, contenders were narrowed down politically, and was lost because of political action by your representative govt.

 

[chhota bheem]

Forget what Pakistan can or can not afford, we never go overboard and never boast, infact we always play poor unlike Indians, as they say in Punjabi Gaand ech goon na, kawan noon saintan

No disrespect to anyone bro,its business and negotiation is part of the business.

The reason you play poor is not by choice but lack of it,why do you think PAF goes back to F16 again and again,thats because PAF dont have funds to go for another fighter and they dont trust the Chinese ones eventhough they can get them on softloans,that leaves no other choice,you may not like it,but thats the truth.
You can quote me with how F16 is the best one to counter IAF and not because of lack of choice or how F16 out performs others but again they say in Hindi cheal(eagle) ka chillana jyadha,Ch**na cum .

 

[ConcealCarry]

Let's not get in to why PAF goes back to F-16's again and again as I am not privy to their strategy/thought process/limitations, but then I see IAF also going back to SU30MKI again and again

No disrespect to anyone bro,its business and negotiation is part of the business.

The reason you play poor is not by choice but lack of it,why do you think PAF goes back to F16 again and again,thats because PAF dont have funds to go for another fighter and they dont trust the Chinese ones eventhough they can get them on softloans,that leaves no other choice,you may not like it,but thats the truth.
You can quote me with how F16 is the best one to counter IAF and not because of lack of choice or how F16 out performs others but again they say in Hindi cheal(eagle) ka chillana jyadha,Ch**na cum .