Rafale and JF-17 Thunder to compete in Serbia.

[foxbat]

wow. My hunch was right. J-10 did indeed compete. Why was J-10 not shortlisted like the others? Serbia prefers JF-17 over J-10?

Single engine vs double engine.. Depends on how the new purchase fits in with their future doctrine

 

[Zabaniyah]

wow. My hunch was right. J-10 did indeed compete. Why was J-10 not shortlisted like the others? Serbia prefers JF-17 over J-10?

Then I rest my case

---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

Single engine vs double engine.. Depends on how the new purchase fits in with their future doctrine

That really depends on the end-user's operational requirements. Typically, single engined ones are easier to maintain relative to twin engined ones.

 

[MiG-21]

Then I rest my case

hehe.. that's my line.

Single engine vs double engine.. Depends on how the new purchase fits in with their future doctrine

JF-17, F-16 & Gripen are shortlisted. They are single engined, just like the J-10.

 

[Mav3rick]

Anyway, on topic, if twin engine planes provide so much more safety and advantages, then opting for a single engine doctrine per your post becomes as stupid and biased as comparing the 2..

We are again going off topic, but the whole world is aware that an 'S' class offers a lot more protective features than a Maruti, right? So why are more Maruti's sold then 'S' class? That decision has a lot to do with initial cost as well as maintenance and running cost. Cost is the final say in every decision. The buyer is usually neither stupid nor biased, the purchase simply is according to his/her needs and budget.

 

[Mav3rick]

Pakistan is extremely pro Chinese. "taller than mountains, deeper than oceans" and all that. Most people won't take Pakistan praising Chinese products, as objective.

If your argument were valid, we would not have purchased so much American weaponry, if your argument had weight we would not be begging for more American weaponry every chance we get. We are extremely pro West when it comes to defence purchases. Jets from US & France, Subs from France/Germany and so on. We say it as we see it, the Chinese have always made better copies of Russian Jets then Russia's original products.

If a fighter has a high thrust to weight ratio, it can perform evasive maneuvers better, if a bvr missile is heading towards it. Evasive maneuvers like tight turns and rapid altitude changes requires a good Thrust to weight ratio.
For example, those huge long range missiles like the phoenix missile was only effective against not-very-maneuverable bombers. Against agile fighters, it would mostly miss its target. If a performance of a jet was not a consideration, then phoenix would have been effective against fighters as well.
So, for example if a bvr missile is heading towards it, a fighter performs 1.jamming along with 2.evasive maneuvers & 3.countermeasures, and ditches the missile. But now after ditching the first missile, the fighter which doesn't have a good thrust to weight ratio, has depleted its energy and cannot perform its evasive maneuvers. If a second missile comes in now after a few seconds, the fighter now only has 2 of the 3 defensive mechanisms available now, so the chances of the fighter getting killed is higher in the second missile. I don't know about other airforces, but the Russian and Indian Airforces launch 2 missiles within a few seconds of each other as a standard practice, against a single target.

If a Jet with a better radar+BVR Missile and low RCS fire at a Jet that can not detect/lock back on it, who has the advantage? Ideally a low RCS (stealth) jet would detect, lock on and fire a BVR missile at a target before the target realizes the existence of hostile Jet. By the time the target is aware of imminent threat, the first Jet is already beyond the firing range of the later's BVR Missile.

An my friend, please be aware, the missiles are a lot faster and a lot more manoeuvrable then any Jet.

 

[The enlightened]

If your argument were valid, we would not have purchased so much American weaponry, if your argument had weight we would not be begging for more American weaponry every chance we get. We are extremely pro West when it comes to defence purchases. Jets from US & France, Subs from France/Germany and so on. We say it as we see it, the Chinese have always made better copies of Russian Jets then Russia's original products.





If a Jet with a better radar+BVR Missile and low RCS fire at a Jet that can not detect/lock back on it, who has the advantage? Ideally a low RCS (stealth) jet would detect, lock on and fire a BVR missile at a target before the target realizes the existence of hostile Jet. By the time the target is aware of imminent threat, the first Jet is already beyond the firing range of the later's BVR Missile.

An my friend, please be aware, the missiles are a lot faster and a lot more manoeuvrable then any Jet.

So which jets were you comparing their?

 

[MiG-21]

If your argument were valid, we would not have purchased so much American weaponry, if your argument had weight we would not be begging for more American weaponry every chance we get. We are extremely pro West when it comes to defence purchases. Jets from US & France, Subs from France/Germany and so on. We say it as we see it, the Chinese have always made better copies of Russian Jets then Russia's original products.

You are only pro-west in defence purchases, but you are pro-chinese in everything, including being strategic pals. How can anyone expect pakistan to bad mouth chinese products.

If a Jet with a better radar+BVR Missile and low RCS fire at a Jet that can not detect/lock back on it, who has the advantage? Ideally a low RCS (stealth) jet would detect, lock on and fire a BVR missile at a target before the target realizes the existence of hostile Jet. By the time the target is aware of imminent threat, the first Jet is already beyond the firing range of the later's BVR Missile.

Actually, there is something called as a radar warning receiver. You might want to look up on that. So there will be No "lock on and fire a BVR missile at a target before the target realizes the existence of hostile Jet" situation.

An my friend, please be aware, the missiles are a lot faster and a lot more manoeuvrable then any Jet.

Missiles are indeed maneuverable, but missiles are not driven by humans. They have to find their maneuvering targets, under all the jamming, and countermeasures, and correctly identify them. After successful identification, it has calculate an intercept path. The intercept path is different, each moment, if the target is changing heading and altitude wildly. All these calculations have to be done in real time, and then the output fed to the vanes to steer the missile. So the chances of hit are lower if the target is a highly agile one.

 

[Storm Force]

I think the JF17 or indeed the FC1 could do with a big ticket purchase and STAMP APPROVAL from PLAAF.

Not only is it completely untested technology which nobody is ware of in performance terms BUT the country building it is yet to order some for its own purposes.

The chinase and indeed PEOPLE ON PDF forum upsell the FC1 as a great perfect cost effective solution to aging MIGs but the country with the BIGGEST OUTDATED FLEET OF MIG TYPE PLANES ON THE PLANET namely CHINA is yet to buy the plane.

" please dont shout or abuse me " i just think CHINA can really help the image by COMMITTING a purchase cause they need to replace 1500 obselete MIG19/MIG21 type fighters ie Q5 & F6 & F7

 

[Luftwaffe]

Not only is it completely untested technology which nobody is ware of in performance terms BUT the country building it is yet to order some for its own purposes.

What do you mean by untested technology? to start with you notion is wrong you might have been trying to tell untested platform. Why nobody is aware of its Performance CAC-PAC PLAAF-PAF is aware of its performance parameters, from Prototypes to the current two PAF squadrons are operational for the past more then 1 Year, where'd the idea coming from nobody knows the performance, do us a favor and don't ruin this thread it is not JFT thread.

What is your problem, USAF does not operate Block 60 F-16 the most advance Vipers so is it important for China to operate FC-1 (perhaps they are looking for a Block II-III), seriously you are not making sense.

 

[MiG-21]

" please dont shout or abuse me " i just think CHINA can really help the image by COMMITTING a purchase cause they need to replace 1500 obselete MIG19/MIG21 type fighters ie Q5 & F6 & F7

Actually storm, China had around 3000 J-6 as early as 1995! Then add in the Q5, another variant of the Mig-19 whose number is around 500. So in total around 3500 Mig-19 junks were in PLAAF in 1995. They were gradually taken out of active service. Chinese claim they are all retired now, which is strange because the production only stopped only in the 1980s. Anyway-
Add in 500 Mig-21/J-7 which are active now.
And then add another 250 J-8, which looks like a Sukhoi-15.


Our airforce which is jumping up and down about our squadron strength should take a look at china. They lost more than 70% of their fighters in the form of Mig-19s in just 10 years.

The Chinese had every reason to buy the FC-1/JF-17 to replace their fallen squadrons, but they didn't.

Edit: Almost forgot the link, before someone starts questioning my numbers. Peoples Liberation Army Air Force

 

[Luftwaffe]

I'm not a moderator or I would have closed this thread as usual hindustani members derail the thread. Santro sahib about time thread has run its course.

 

[Storm Force]

LUFTWAFFE.

Like i pleaded dont shoot me plz.

USA has operated up to 1500 variants of the F16 TO DATE. They dont operate F16/60 because the USA is moving to fifth gen fighters like F35, F22 and soon UACV..

they dont need F16/60 full stop.

CHINA BUYING FC1 in large nos WILL look good in marketing material.

FULL STAMP OF APPROVAL

EG french buys rafale
swden buys gripen
UK germany buy typhoon
china buys J10

These are major world class air powers and it matters a great deal to a new perspective buyer.

PS i am not trying to ruin the thread please calm down think wat have posted

 

[Luftwaffe]

USA has operated up to 1500 variants of the F16 TO DATE. They dont operate F16/60 because the USA is moving to fifth gen fighters like F35, F22 and soon UACV..they dont need F16/60 full stop.

CHINA BUYING FC1 in large nos WILL look good in marketing material.

Really moving to 5th Generation? F-16s and F-15s are slowly being upgraded including AESA Radars due to costs of F-22/F-35 it is apparent the induction of many airframes would take many years and F-16s-F-15s would be around another decade or so, infact current some of F-16s are being highly modified and many to come, update your information.

Now would you stick to serbian air force tender-acquisition.

 

[Storm Force]

LUFTWAFFE no offence .. but one minute your saying F16/60 why USA NOT acquired this AND NEXT BREADTH they are upgrading their F16 & F15s

make your mind up

USA did operate and does operate F16 or it does not

I KNOW THEY DO infact i know the nos too

my opinion stands.

PLAAF ordering FC1 will be good for reputation

 

[MiG-21]

I'm not a moderator or I would have closed this thread as usual hindustani members derail the thread.

Hey, don't accuse us. It went awry because of discussions within discussions which was also initiated by pakistani members.
I don't want to be the reason for the closure of this thread. This is my last post on this topic.
See ya around peeps!