RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s'

[SBD-3]

This is a bogus news as long as someone doesnot provide a authentic source... till then bye bye...

And you just poked your nose in for this?

 

[Najam Khan]

Buddy Phatom without gun are those days Missiles were totaly not that developed.. but in Modern war fare like Derby which can take a lock after launch missiles have grown tremendously.. for (e.g.) take MKI.. it can guide 8 Missiles at the same time against max of 4 targets... which will give a sure shot no escape zone for the enemy so where is the time for the enemy to meet in WVR... during first week of war(case IAF and PAF) i bet atleast 1000 bvr will be fired by IAF against PAF (vice versa).... no wonder it would bring down atleast 250 - 500 of the enemy targets.. Most of the fighters will be taken in the first week in BVR itself...

If you dont believe why BVR is deadly Mig-29 has kept your F-16 away from kargil because it carried BVR that is the only reason.. and Russians Missiles are too accurate..

Well it seems that IAF's doctrine of air combat is full of BVR...their is no doubt that with BVR one can do wonders from miles...dogfights are not about to fire and run...its about taking down the enemy within safe parameters, BVR gives an edge here. But the heat of encounter can go in any direction, who knows which mistake changes the fate of BVR equipped a/c, relying too much on BVR would be a great mistake.

In PAF, WVR training is the area where they are experts...better to say invulnerable...after acquiring SD10B and integration of AMRAAMs on MLU F16s their expertise will grow rapidly....right now IAF has edge in BVR, but in few years it won't be.

As far as your second point of Mig29s is concerned, it was not BVR equipped Mig29s it was the F16s under sanctions, which made PAF to decrease CAPs and concentrated on saving them for a full scale war.

 

[Silk]

Just for info. JF17 is optimized against Indian BVR threat. MAWS, IRST, small and agile and low RCS. Add to that ECM optimized against all Indian BVR's and you know that is is bound to be a firewall.

 

[majesticpankaj]

And you just poked your nose in for this?

yes... because wikileaks are more credible than this fake news

 

[Areesh]

yes... because wikileaks are more credible than this fake news

And a kid suffering the autism has more intelligence than you.

 

[SBD-3]

yes... because wikileaks are more credible than this fake news

Airforces Monthly is much more credible than any of your rediff,Indiatimes and hindu on Airforce issues. Its readers are airforce professionals which are much more informed and critical to false news than immature posters here asking for "credible source". rather than wasting time here do spend some 8 pounds to have your copy of latest issue
AirForces Monthly: The world’s number one military aviation magazine

 

[Chogy]

I believe I need to explain again how training missions, DACT, work.

First, "kills" in a training mission mean absolutely nothing. On a given day, one group can emerge triumphant, and the very next day, lose badly. The reason is that it is training, with artificial rules, and with training objectives created by the mission commander.

I'll give an example - I'm leading a 2 V 2 F-15 vs F-16. My wingman is a new guy. I want to work with him on radar sorting. So I will create an artificial scenario where I will somewhat handcuff the F-16's for at least one fight. I'll tell them "I want you to execute a Russian-style lead-trail, and have the leader drag out at 10 miles." I won't tell my wingman. And being professionals, they will do what I ask of them. We get good training.

Then, I'll ask them, "What do YOU want to see?" For a second fight, they'll say "We want stern-aspect IR missiles and guns, so we can brush up on our BFM/ACM." We'll give them that, and ignore BVR and any shots in front of the 3-9 line.

HUD tapes from these fights can be cherry-picked. "LOOK!! An F-16 easily defeats the F-15!!" And we'll get 20 pages of arguments over an artificial training encounter.

Remember a while back, there was a famous tape of a T-38 gunning an F-22? People were going absolutely nuts. The reality is that if the T-38 flight lead is in charge of a mission, he can ask the F-22 guy "I want to do a gun-tracking exercise. Give me a turn of no more than 5 G, no slower than 250 knots." And the F-22 will do exactly that. The tape becomes immortal, but means nothing.

Pilots are professionals. They do as commanded. It is too expensive to operate these jets and NOT get good training. And every single mission has pre-briefed training objectives, like

- 100% valid shots at pickle
- Practice 2 V 1 ACM maneuvering
- Execute valid sort/shoot in an ECM environment
- etc.

Only war, or a large number of samples from an exercise like Red Flag, can one draw any meaningful conclusions on one platform vs another.

 

[John Doe]

EDIT: What Chogy typed above is superb. PLEASE READ IT!!!

Some Random thoughts:

The F-16 was eliminated in the MRCA in India, leaving the Typhoon, specifically for being a poorer dog fighter than all the competitors, perhaps except the F-18.

The purpose of any air exercise is for both sides to learn and obviously shootdowns will take place on both sides.

BVR most likely trumps any WVR skills.

Indian pilots know the PAF well enough to plan against any PAF strength.

The part of the interview that every Indian should be laughing reading is the part where the PAF pilot admits that the newest and best jets they have are like puppets on a string manipulated by the Americans!

These jets cannot be flown across the border, cannot be opened up without permission, etc. and can only be used in self-defence (that too if Uncle Sam allows)!! So who needs to even switch on Indian radar? Just call 1-800-USLove and ask them where the PAF has hidden the jets & shoot off some missiles!

Is that not worth reading this whole interview for all Indian fanboys?

 

[SQ8]

Some Random thoughts:

The F-16 was eliminated in the MRCA in India, leaving the Typhoon, specifically for being a poorer dog fighter than all the competitors, perhaps except the F-18.

The purpose of any air exercise is for both sides to learn and obviously shootdowns will take place on both sides.

BVR most likely trumps any WVR skills.

Indian pilots know the PAF well enough to plan against any PAF strength.

The part of the interview that every Indian should be laughing reading is the part where the PAF pilot admits that the newest and best jets they have are like puppets on a string manipulated by the Americans!

These jets cannot be flown across the border, cannot be opened up without permission, etc. and can only be used in self-defence (that too if Uncle Sam allows)!! Is that not worth reading this whole interview for all Indian fanboys?

What nobody realizes is how many times the F-16's may have been shot down by the typhoon's in BVR.
Unfortunately.. haggling was the call of the hour for the fanboys.

 

[John Doe]

Exactly Santro! And this air warfare business is so complicated, can any one of us laymen understand the complexities of AWACS, ground radar, BVR etc? Is real life straight from 'Iron Eagle' and 'Top Gun'?

Throw in the missiles ( Agni, Ghauri, et al) that both countries possess and send in waves towards each others airbases, who knows what will happen in a real war?

Even the winner will lose, since the economy will go down the toilet too!

 

[Donatello]

Indians will bring MKI to every forum no matter what.

 

[Windjammer]

The news was also reported in an article of the Air forces monthly magazine July 2011 issue.

 

[SQ8]

The news was also reported in an article of the Air forces monthly magazine July 2011 issue.

Expect comments on the word allegedly very soon

 

[Mo12]

Well done Pakistan, but I am sure RAF best pilots are all in Libya at the moment, then at this show.

But the rookie pilots seems poor from England.

 

[T90TankGuy]

good job PAF if its true.