R&D neglected in Muslim countries

[Fazlu]

^^ I disagree with the 'size' part. Japan and Germany showed time and again that size doesn't matter.

It does help though. If not size and a deep pool of resources; then the people comprising the nation ought to be more "enlightened"...or "mature". The administrators of the nation must rely on cold logic rather than personal bias or emotions.

 

[Developereo]

If you want to study further on the effects of culture on individual's Nach,there is a study done by MCcleland in kakinada(India) and Japan.Also relevant would be the books authored by sudhir Kakkar{a psychologist} (Culture and Psyche and the Inner world).They have a description of how doting mothers destroy the scientific temper of Indian children by cutrailing independent thought(would also apply to pakistanis as you people have similar culture even though different religion).

As a rule, and nothing specific to this example, I have fairly strong contempt for the 'soft' sciences like sociology and psychology. As a student and proponent of hard sciences like physics, chemistry, etc., I don't give much credence to hand waving, subjectively interpretative 'sciences' like the above. You can pretty much 'prove' any claim in psychology or sociology.

There is nothing like swallowing propaganda wholesale.I quoted this example since i have seen massive support for mumtaz qadri.Even your lawyers showered him with roses.What is left to imagination after seeing that.

Again, you are going by high profile, sensationalist events. In ordinary life, people don't give any thought to these laws.

Whether you continue to believe the hype is up to you.

Don't want to insult but repainting North Korean and Chinese missiles and assembling nuclear bomb with Finnish designs and Chinese help does not count as great scientific achievement.

As long as Indians want to keep believing this, we are more than happy to let you.

And also in a lot of rich countries with stable governance.

Not really. Institutions in rich, prosperous countries cannot maintain their lead unless they are constantly on their toes to keep two steps ahead of their competitors.

It does help though. If not size and a deep pool of resources; then the people comprising the nation ought to be more "enlightened"...or "mature". The administrators of the nation must rely on cold logic rather than personal bias or emotions.

Japanese society is about as collectivist and conformist as you can get, and they have precious few natural resources. It is also a relatively small country. Yet they achieved technological triumph time and again.

 

[Don777]

It does help though. If not size and a deep pool of resources; then the people comprising the nation ought to be more "enlightened"...or "mature". The administrators of the nation must rely on cold logic rather than personal bias or emotions.

Either you should have quality or quantity to grow. Countries which has bothe are at top like US, counties which has either of them are following them , like Japan, Germany, China, India, while countries which have none of them are suffering most like some of the African, Asian, Europian and S American countries.

 

[kalu_miah]

^^ I disagree with the 'size' part. Japan and Germany showed time and again that size doesn't matter.

Among Western Europe Germany has the highest historical continuity with a minimum size, while Nordics in Scandinavia are too small as individual systems. Germany and Nordics have the highest quality goods, due to this factor. Both will leverage the size of EU and lead the EU. Japan also has high historical continuity because Yuan Mongols lost in their invasions due to divine winds (Kami Kaze). So in East Asia it has the highest historical continuity, which shows up in the quality of their produced goods.

High historical continuity = quickly adaptable system to new situation and constraints

Examples, rise of Germany post WW II and rise of Japan at Meiji Restoration and then post WW II

But high historical continuity is not substitute for size, which is the other important factor in the comparative advantage of a system. Hence Germany lost to Russia and Japan lost to the US in WW II. Both Russia and US were bigger but less historical continuity than the losers. So the equation is a bit complex, but I think you get my point.

 

[anonymus]

As a rule, and nothing specific to this example, I have fairly strong contempt for the 'soft' sciences like sociology and psychology. As a student and proponent of hard sciences like physics, chemistry, etc., I don't give much credence to hand waving, subjectively interpretative 'sciences' like the above. You can pretty much 'prove' any claim in psychology or sociology.

Didn't said that Psychology or sociology is hard science.They lack falsifiability of Physics.

While gravitational force would always be an attractive force,a Psychological concept does not pedict an event with 100% accuracy.Thus there are exceptions but Psychology and sociology could make successful predictions regarding trends.

As long as Indians want to keep believing this, we are more than happy to let you.

Your former president Musharraf admitted to that.

Not really. Institutions in rich, prosperous countries cannot maintain their lead unless they are constantly on their toes to keep two steps ahead of their competitors.

Depend's upon how they get rich.Countries relying on robber industries does not require to innovate.

Japanese society is about as collectivist and conformist as you can get, and they have precious few natural resources. It is also a relatively small country. Yet they achieved technological triumph time and again.

Japanese achievement lies in field of Organisational research (it is the founder country of 6-Sigma principle) and applied research.I thought discussion was on Scientific research (Basic sciences) in which rich countries with individualistic cultures are dominating.

Organisational and applied research suits Japanese well.Their approach of six sigma principle would be much easily applied in a collectivist culture than a individualistic one.

 

[Developereo]

So the equation is a bit complex, but I think you get my point.

I am not sure there is any equation.

Vast empires with plenty of size and historical continuity, in China, Middle East and South America, were defeated by Mongols or tiny European nations. The Romans succumbed to the Goths. Mighty Persia was defeated by the tiny Aegean tribes.

Continuity can just as easily lead to complacency and decline.

Japanese achievement lies in field of Organisational research (it is the founder country of 6-Sigma principle) and applied research.I thought discussion was on Scientific research (Basic sciences) in which rich countries with individualistic cultures are dominating.

Organisational and applied research suits Japanese well.Their approach of six sigma principle would be much easily applied in a collectivist culture than a individualistic one.

It is an unfortunate, and somewhat racist, belief that Japanese can not do basic science. It is completely false.

They have made important contributions in many fields of pure science. One of the current flavors of string theory traces its roots back to a Japanese physicist working in Japan.

 

[kollang]

we muslim country was leading the world in science!but what happened?The Islam has changed?no!
this is our wrong decision to let west's pupets lead our countries.hopefully my country is going the true way.Iran is now the most advanced muslim country and we ranks 16 in science and we have the fastest science growth in the WORLD.
just wake up and see who are your leaders!

 

[anonymus]

It is an unfortunate, and somewhat racist, belief that Japanese can not do basic science. It is completely false.

They have made important contributions in many fields of pure science. One of the current flavors of string theory traces its roots back to a Japanese physicist working in Japan.

It is not racist belief.I was not saying that a Japanese individualistically are incapable of doing basic science.I was just pointing towards general trends of whole of a nation/society.India also has a collectivist culture and i put India in same category as Japan.Indians individually have won noble prizes but on a whole scientific output of India also is on lower side.

And i am a mechanical engineering student.I have seen first hand as to how inquisitiveness is punished even in best institutes of a collectivist society.People still have innovative ideas but it is not a Modal variation and people have to pursue these ideas on their own.

 

[Rusty]

so by your logic that follow blindly is judeo-christian concept and not islamic you can go against teaching of quran and accept the scientific concept which quran opposes like evolution

And Hindus belive that the earth lies on the back of a turtle.
See can can pull $itt out of my @ss too
The problem with this kind of discussion on an open forum is that people know don't know Islamic values or teaching will still want say something. Like if what they say has any value on this topic. Case and point, this guy.

As for the topic. It is simple really. To have R&D you need leadership and a functioning society. When Europe colorized our lands the first thing they did was destroy our leadership and social institutions. You could say a social nuclear bomb was dropped on us. And only now are we recovering. But everyone has their own pace and some are quicker then others.

 

[kalu_miah]

deleted, double post.

 

[kalu_miah]

I am not sure there is any equation.

Vast empires with plenty of size and historical continuity, in China, Middle East and South America, were defeated by Mongols or tiny European nations. The Romans succumbed to the Goths. Mighty Persia was defeated by the tiny Aegean tribes.

Continuity can just as easily lead to complacency and decline.

Steppe Nomads were natural born warrior individuals due to their environment and terrain, same was true of Arab Bedouins to a lesser extent. When these nomadic population united and borrowed from war tactics from more advanced settled civilizations, they were invincible people as the entire nation mobilized as army. Both Goths and Aegean tribes had superior war skills like the nomads compared to Romans and Persians. But in all these cases, I think these tribes had higher historical continuity than the empires they defeated, because the empires were much lower in historical continuity, which were a conglomeration and a mix of various tribes and were new creations, compared to older tribal structures of the winning "barbarians".

Now a days, with MAD, total war means defeat for both parties, so war is limited in the economic arena, where my "equations" still remain valid. But then it is not an exact science, its just a vague idea related to Historical Sociology:
Historical sociology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Path dependence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My "road map" is actually based on these hypothesis about Historical Continuity and Size:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2758071
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2772275

 

[kalu_miah]

deleted, triple post.

 

[Bang Galore]

And Hindus belive that the earth lies on the back of a turtle.

Not really, the difference between Hindu mythology (this among many such stories) & what people believe in is what is moot. Unlike some of the rigid insistence in biblical & quranic stories being taken dead seriously by some, there is no opposition within Hinduism to scientific theories including evolution and certainly no insistence on fables being taken as literal truth.

 

[Developereo]

It is not racist belief.I was not saying that a Japanese individualistically are incapable of doing basic science.I was just pointing towards general trends of whole of a nation/society.India also has a collectivist culture and i put India in same category as Japan.Indians individually have won noble prizes but on a whole scientific output of India also is on lower side.

And i am a mechanical engineering student.I have seen first hand as to how inquisitiveness is punished even in best institutes of a collectivist society.People still have innovative ideas but it is not a Modal variation and people have to pursue these ideas on their own.

Patents granted statistics - countries compared worldwide - NationMaster

Japan is #1 at 994 patents/million, well ahead of the US at 289 and UK at 82

Japan is consistently in the forefront in robotics, supercomputing, etc, etc. Japan has capabilities in space, nuclear and military tech that can hold its own against anyone else.

There is not a shadow of a doubt that the Japanese can research and innovate as well as anyone in the West.

P.S. I realize this measures applied, not basic, research, but it emphasizes the point that collectivist societies are not averse to R&D. In terms of basic research, Japan's citations/paper are below Western countries, but still respectable.

 

[kalu_miah]

And Hindus belive that the earth lies on the back of a turtle.
See can can pull $itt out of my @ss too
The problem with this kind of discussion on an open forum is that people know don't know Islamic values or teaching will still want say something. Like if what they say has any value on this topic. Case and point, this guy.

As for the topic. It is simple really. To have R&D you need leadership and a functioning society. When Europe colorized our lands the first thing they did was destroy our leadership and social institutions. You could say a social nuclear bomb was dropped on us. And only now are we recovering. But everyone has their own pace and some are quicker then others.

Very good point. Related ideas:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2758071