What's new

R&D neglected in Muslim countries

Yes, they go together. Just because scientific research is not a norm in today's Muslim world, it doesn't mean it never was, or it will never be.
.

They don't. Most religions don't. Heck, Muslims can't even come to terms with Evolution, a concept so fundamental to modern biology.

But there's hope. Scientists (the real ones, not some average Joe with a PhD) don't believe in any religion anyway. Governments in Muslim countries only need to support the R&D activities of these scientists and professors financially and create scholarship programs to train young aspiring scientists in top foreign universities.

apo_Asura is not a Muslim

If you want to contribute constructively, feel free to do so!
 
.
no it didnt help..
you are wrong...
The Medieval Europe wasn't an open society..Newton did not live in an open society...But they did loads for science..
Likewise the Alchemists of Muslims were in Medieval times ..
So your analysis is wrong..

There would be some inquisitive genius in even most tribal of the societies who would carry their passion even in face of state repression which would result in some moribund activity in field of science.But it does not lead to an innovative society.Scientific development in such society is like rain in atacama desert.

And get your history correct.Newton was born during the renaissance when the authority of church had been severely eroded.It was a dark period for rest of the world not Europe.

And alchemy is not science.It was the only inquisitive pursuit that people could indulge in middle east during middle ages without the threat of decapitation for blasphemy.

Today's lack of scientific research among Muslims doesn't have anything to do with 'old beliefs and customs' at all; the sheer ignorance that exists in the Muslim world is the sole reason scientific research is so uncommon.

Scientific research is uncommon not only for the reason of ignorance but is directly a function of secularism (separation of religion and state).People are not robots who could change their psychology with the switch of a button.If they live in an overall theocratic and repressive regime,it is highly improbable that any scientific input would come out from such a society.Religious clerics are perpetually bloodthirsty.They have fragile ego and a belief which they know they would never ever be able to prove in any objective manner.A secular state is required to protect people who commit blasphemous researches like topic of evolution.

apo_Asura is not a Muslim Bangladeshi, this post makes it obvious. He claims to be an atheist, but is probably of Hindu origin. Just pointing out for people who do not know that 9-10% Bangladesh population are Hindu.

Apart for showing your hatred for hindus,it is a classical example of why muslims have non-existent scientific research.You people have inability to tolerate dissent and diversity of opinion.Anyone who does not confirm to your views is dubbed as Kafir.apo_asura as i remember from Bangladeshi defence forum has clearly stated that he is an atheist muslim.

It's still a theory genius; evolution is not a concept accepted by all scientists.

Evolution is accepted as a well established concept among all mainstream scientists.Only Bible and Koran thumpers disagrees with it.A lot of modern day research like that of DNA and evolution of antibiotic resistant bacteria has proven it in front of our own generation.
 
.
The problem lies in neglecting the Quran and idolizing extremist scholars who give "fatwas" of backwardness out of their own whims and wishes rather than the Quran. Some of their fatwas are you cannot work in any western company because women don't wear burka (which again, is never any requirement), you must boycott supermarkets because they buy from Israel, you cannot eat anything not labelled "halal", you cannot draw anything because you will worship them (!), you cannot hear or build a career on music (again no prohibition in Quran), you cannot engage in science and aesthetics because it may involve drawing stuffs, testing drugs on pigs etc. you cannot study in school because there are girls... etc.........

Anybody who disobeys "them", are labelled secular, infidels and Kuffars. As if they are given "certificate" that they will go to hell.

Only solution for muslims is to go back to what was revealed originally (Quran) and ignore all these extremist scholars. Only then can we progress. This has to be done at state level for collective progress.

Anybody who studied the Quran carefully will know that the Quran never instructs to do anything which may make us backward and our societies to impede progress in R&D etc. All this backwardness is the invention of extremist scholars and fraudulent hadiths.

muslim's situation at present is very similar to medieval Europe.
 
.
The problem lies in neglecting the Quran and idolizing extremist scholars who give "fatwas" of backwardness out of their own whims and wishes rather than the Quran. Some of their fatwas are you cannot work in any western company because women don't wear burka (which again, is never any requirement), you must boycott supermarkets because they buy from Israel, you cannot eat anything not labelled "halal", you cannot draw anything because you will worship them (!), you cannot hear or build a career on music (again no prohibition in Quran), you cannot engage in science and aesthetics because it may involve drawing stuffs, testing drugs on pigs etc. you cannot study in school because there are girls... etc.........

Anybody who disobeys "them", are labelled secular, infidels and Kuffars. As if they are given "certificate" that they will go to hell.

Only solution for muslims is to go back to what was revealed originally (Quran) and ignore all these extremist scholars. Only then can we progress. This has to be done at state level for collective progress.

Anybody who studied the Quran carefully will know that the Quran never instructs to do anything which may make us backward and our societies to impede progress in R&D etc. All this backwardness is the invention of extremist scholars and fraudulent hadiths.

muslim's situation at present is very similar to medieval Europe.

If going to koran is an exlier,please answer this question of audio as this event combined with advances in physics and biology have destroyed the descriptive basis of koran also along with that of other religions.

I wonder how some dogmatic imams with power would look upon a request to build a particle accelerator to research the beginning of time and why we are here. :lol:
 
.
RnD neglected ? when was it even there in first place ?

#from some other member here which is true : Most muslim nations are weak militarily and normally tend to act as sidekicks of bigger powers
 
.
RnD neglected ? when was it even there in first place ?
.....s


Yeap. Saudi Arabia region that is heart of Islam, has not produced any science for the last 1300+ years.

However it is not the religion but culture that produced or stops scientific developments.

Most of India is scientifically dead be it Hindu or Muslim.

Most of Africa is scientifically dead be it Christian or Muslim or tree dwellers.

Peace. Peace to you all.
 
. .
Yeap. Saudi Arabia region that is heart of Islam, has not produced any science for the last 1300+ years.

However it is not the religion but culture that produced or stops scientific developments.

Most of India is scientifically dead be it Hindu or Muslim.

Most of Africa is scientifically dead be it Christian or Muslim or tree dwellers.

Peace. Peace to you all.

many Indian scientists have won Nobel prizes for their work... oh but then u are a pakistani.. it's ok !! :lol:
 
.
I think there are some misconceptions here that Quran promotes backwardness. As long as the Muslims followed the Quran, they were the pioneers of science, R&D etc. Anybody who has read medieval history would know that while Europe believed Sun to be rotating around earth, Muslims were making strides in astronomy.

See here for more:

Science & Islam | 1001 Inventions

We only became backward as we diverted from Quran and its teachings/values.
 
.
so by your logic that follow blindly is judeo-christian concept and not islamic you can go against teaching of quran and accept the scientific concept which quran opposes like evolution

The "scientific" concept of evolution you are talking about is being opposed by the most prominent scientists, proving that Koran is also right about it.
Only apes would like to believe in the theory of evolution:

What does the theory of evolution need to explain?

If a theory says that humans have come into existence by evolutionary processes, the theory must be also be able to explain how the following came into being.

1. The sun and the earth (Without a planet and a star there can be no first cell.)

2. The first self-replicating (living) cell (Without the first cell there can be no other life.)

3. The formation of all other living things

In the evolutionist framework, the sun, the earth and the first cell came about by random, mindless, blind and unguided processes. Random, mindless, blind and unguided processes never achieve anything.

In natural selection, the environment affects the gene frequency in a population. Even so, natural selection is a mindless and blind process acting on mutations which are random, mindless and blind.

Evolution (which is mindless and blind) will never achieve anything.

Darwin's theory of natural selection contradicts clearly established scientific laws. To re-emphasize, Darwin believed the ultimate result of natural selection was an improvement of the individual and an overall advancement of the species.[lii] This implies that evolution requires an advancement of order. Many biologists believe in this "inherent tendency towards higher organization,"[liii] but advancement in order is just the opposite from what is observed in the natural world. The two basic laws of science, the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics, describe all processes which occur in the universe. These laws are experimentally tested and proven and are not based on speculation.

The Second Law (Law of Energy Decay) states that every system left to its own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailability for further work.[liv]

With the Second Law as the governing agent, two criteria must be met for a change from disorder to order to occur: 1) there must be a pattern, blueprint or code to direct the growth and, 2) there must be a power converter to energize the growth.[lv] "Natural selection is not a code which directs the production of anything new; it serves merely as a screen which sifts out unfit variants and defective mutants. It certainly is not an energy conversion device."[lvi] To propose a theory of naturally occurring advancement in organization in a universe governed by a law of naturally occurring disorder is a serious flaw in logic. The laws of science preclude natural selection, as defined by Darwin, from ever having occurred.

http://www.fbinstitute.com/powell/evolutionexposed.htm


PRESENT DAY PhD SCIENTISTS:

"The evidence points to an intelligent designer of the vast array of life, both living and extinct, rather than to unguided mindless evolution." (Nancy M Darrall, Speech Therapist at the Bolton Community Health Care Trust in the UK. She holds a PhD in Botany from the University of Wales.)

"Evolutionary theories of the universe cannot counteract the above arguments for the existence of God." (John M Cimbala, Professor of Mechanical Engineering, Pennsylvania State University. John holds a PhD in Aeronautics.)

"The correspondence between the global catastrophe in the geological record and the Flood described in Genesis is much too obvious for me to conclude that these events must be one and the same." (John R Baumgardner, Technical Staff Member in the Theoretical Division of Los Alamos National Laboratory. John holds a PhD in Geophysics and Space Physics from UCLU.)

"We have already seen that no such system could possibly appear by chance. Life in its totality must have been created in the beginning, just as God told us." (John P Marcus, Research Officer at the Cooperative Research Centre for Tropical Plant Pathology, University of Queensland, Australia. John holds a PhD in Biological Chemistry from the University of Michigan.)

"The fossil record is considered to be the primary evidence for evolution, yet it does not demonstrate a complete chain of life from simple forms to complex." (Larry Vardiman, Professor from the Department of Astro-Geophysics for Creation Research, USA. Larry holds a PhD in Atmospheric Science from Colorado State University.)

"I … have no hesitation in rejecting the evolutionary hypothesis of origins and affirming the biblical alternative that 'in six days the Lord God created the heavens and earth and all that in them is'. (Dr Taylor is senior lecturer in Electrical Engineering at the University of Liverpool. Dr Taylor has a PhD in Electrical Engineering and has authored over 80 scientific articles.)

"I believe God provides evidence of His creative power for all to experience personally in our lives. To know the Creator does not require an advanced degree in science or theology." (Timothy G Standish is an Associate Professor of Biology at Andrews University in the USA. Dr Standish holds a PhD in Biology and Public Policy from George Mason University, USA.)

"At the same time I found I could reject evolution and not commit intellectual suicide, I began to realise I could also accept a literal creation and still not commit intellectual suicide." (AJ Monty White, Student Advisor, Dean of Students Office, at the University of Cardiff, UK. Dr White holds a PhD in the field of Gas Kinetics.)

"So life did not arise by natural processes, nor could the grand diversity of life have arisen through no-intelligent natural processes (evolution). Living things were created by God, as the Bible says." (Don Batten, a research scientist for Answer in Genesis in Australia. Dr Batten holds a PhD in Plant Physiology from the University of Sydney and worked for 18 years as a research scientist with the New South Wales Department of Agriculture.)

"In the words of the well-known scientist, Robert Jastrow, 'for the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of reason, the story [of the quest for the answers about the origin of life and the universe] ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." (Jerry R Bergman, Instructor of Science at Northwest State College, Archbold, Ohio. He holds a PhD in Evaluation and Research from Wayne State University and a PhD in Human Biology from Columbia Pacific University.)

Evidence against Evolution (concise and short)



Personally I do believe in the adaptation to nature by all earthly creatures comprising humans. which is the truth that the evolutionists overlooked, or failed to grasp.
 
.
The fact is that today's research environment is far from the romantic notion of a mad scientist/wild genius discovering things in their basement. Science has gotten to the point where basic research requires huge resources which can only be provided by governments or large corporations.

Now, corporations will only build research centers where they can find a large supply of qualified researchers; however, people won't pursue advanced academic studies unless there is a reasonable chance of employment at the end. There is no point getting a PhD in physics if you will likely end up as a shopkeeper or office clerk anyway.

It's a chicken and egg problem, a vicious circle, which can only be broken by government subsidies to universities and industry. However, in most Muslim countries, the governments are notoriously incompetent in almost all aspects of governance. The same lack of scientific productivity is seen in non-Muslim countries with inept or unstable governments.

Having said that, there is an aspect of Muslim thought which hinders scientific inquiry: it is the belief that this world is temporary and only the afterlife is the 'true' life. To some extent, all religions use this logic to discourage crass materialism, but some Muslim 'leaders' take this logic to the extreme and advocate minimal engagement with this, ephemeral, world, focusing instead on preparation for the eternal afterlife.
 
.
The fact is that today's research environment is far from the romantic notion of a mad scientist/wild genius discovering things in their basement. Science has gotten to the point where basic research requires huge resources which can only be provided by governments or large corporations.

Now, corporations will only build research centers where they can find a large supply of qualified researchers; however, people won't pursue advanced academic studies unless there is a reasonable chance of employment at the end. There is no point getting a PhD in physics if you will likely end up as a shopkeeper or office clerk anyway.

It's a chicken and egg problem, a vicious circle, which can only be broken by government subsidies to universities and industry. However, in most Muslim countries, the governments are notoriously incompetent in almost all aspects of governance. The same lack of scientific productivity is seen in non-Muslim countries with inept or unstable governments.

Having said that, there is an aspect of Muslim thought which hinders scientific inquiry: it is the belief that this world is temporary and only the afterlife is the 'true' life. To some extent, all religions use this logic to discourage crass materialism, but some Muslim 'leaders' take this logic to the extreme and advocate minimal engagement with this, ephemeral, world, focusing instead on preparation for the eternal afterlife.
Orientalist claim that the demise of Islamic scientific research resulted from the book published by the famous Sufi philosopher Al-Ghzali(D.1111): Incoherence of the philosophers, in which he argued forcefully that there is no cause-effect relationship in the natural world and physical events are merely a result of God's intervention. I don't agree that believing in the after life requires one to solely"focus on preparation for the eternal afterlife." as there are/have been countless religious scientist, mathematicians and philosophers who were both deeply religious and brilliant in their work.
 
.
Orientalist claim that the demise of Islamic scientific research resulted from the book published by the famous Sufi philosopher Al-Ghzali(D.1111): Incoherence of the philosophers, in which he argued forcefully that there is no cause-effect relationship in the natural world and physical events are merely a result of God's intervention. I don't agree that believing in the after life requires one to solely"focus on preparation for the eternal afterlife." as there are/have been countless religious scientist, mathematicians and philosophers who were both deeply religious and brilliant in their work.

Ghazali was right, in one sense that we can not control natural events(rain or drought...) around us, since we are subjects to that, but on the individual level the humans have been blessed with reason and intelligence to use it, otherwise God wouldn't have said: do and if it is good -deeds- than you shall get help. this is my own understanding of it, and so it was probably of some imminent Muslim thinkers before, thus the premise that the philosophy of Ghazali destroyed Muslim advancement in sciences in the past is false, and merely a propagandist lie to hide the fact that the true reasons are the betrayal of the Christian church and others to the Muslim's kindness of sharing their utmost technological secrets with it and others in the name of tolerance and taking it to an apex of naivety.

The Muslim leadership today needs to promote scientists to take high responsibility positions within their governments instead of mainly lawyers as is the western (legacy) concept.
Since the difference in R&D is made by the huge corporation like the 7 sisters for example who are richer than many many countries combined economically speaking.

So the main emphasis should be put on the creation of science and technology ministries with specialised departments, well funded and well organised, to take the role of the counter example of state, corporate and mlitary-industrial complexes financed R&D in the western countries.

More technical schools and universities and better education systems based on pragmatism and experimental sciences combined with encouragement by incentives and funds for R&D specialisation.
All this is possible and easily attainable for the Muslim countries in an islamic environ and context.
 
.
Orientalist claim that the demise of Islamic scientific research resulted from the book published by the famous Sufi philosopher Al-Ghzali(D.1111): Incoherence of the philosophers, in which he argued forcefully that there is no cause-effect relationship in the natural world and physical events are merely a result of God's intervention.

There are all kinds of philosophical treatises all the time but, unless this Ghazali was so influential that he directed official state policy and dominated the intellectual climate of his day, I don't see how this one view could have such widespread consequences. The fact that such a regressive view might gain prominence is probably symptomatic of a existing rot in the system.

I don't agree that believing in the after life requires one to solely"focus on preparation for the eternal afterlife." as there are/have been countless religious scientist, mathematicians and philosophers who were both deeply religious and brilliant in their work.

Of course, I agree with you that Muslim science is not a contradiction in terms, but the fact is that some influential Muslim leaders view anything non-religious as a waste of time, even sacrilegious. They influence their followers to view worldly success as almost sinful.
 
.
Yeap. Saudi Arabia region that is heart of Islam, has not produced any science for the last 1300+ years.

However it is not the religion but culture that produced or stops scientific developments.

Most of India is scientifically dead be it Hindu or Muslim.

Most of Africa is scientifically dead be it Christian or Muslim or tree dwellers.

Peace. Peace to you all.



The fact is that today's research environment is far from the romantic notion of a mad scientist/wild genius discovering things in their basement. Science has gotten to the point where basic research requires huge resources which can only be provided by governments or large corporations.

Now, corporations will only build research centers where they can find a large supply of qualified researchers; however, people won't pursue advanced academic studies unless there is a reasonable chance of employment at the end. There is no point getting a PhD in physics if you will likely end up as a shopkeeper or office clerk anyway.

It's a chicken and egg problem, a vicious circle, which can only be broken by government subsidies to universities and industry. However, in most Muslim countries, the governments are notoriously incompetent in almost all aspects of governance. The same lack of scientific productivity is seen in non-Muslim countries with inept or unstable governments.

Having said that, there is an aspect of Muslim thought which hinders scientific inquiry: it is the belief that this world is temporary and only the afterlife is the 'true' life. To some extent, all religions use this logic to discourage crass materialism, but some Muslim 'leaders' take this logic to the extreme and advocate minimal engagement with this, ephemeral, world, focusing instead on preparation for the eternal afterlife.


I am quoting your post along with that of fauj historian because they in a way are related.

The corporatisation of research along with the fact that most of the avenues of easy research where an individual genius could do it all by himself are exhausted,it has only added one more requirement to the mix.capital.

Stable state was required even during renaissance period for scientific research.

But it in any way does not lowers the requirement of personal qualities that are required for success in research.

Cultures which stresses on collective identity and conformity over individual brilliance whether it is Islamic culture or Indian culture or for that matter oriental culture,it is lagging in scientific research.

A lot of Indians and Chinese/Japanese are active in research field but most of them are migrants to either US or Europe.Don't throw the statistics of patents held by chinese or japanese firms as most of them are in field of applied research not theoretical one.
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom