R&D neglected in Muslim countries

[IbnAlwaled]

There are all kinds of philosophical treatises all the time but, unless this Ghazali was so influential that he directed official state policy and dominated the intellectual climate of his day, I don't see how this one view could have such widespread consequences. The fact that such a regressive view might gain prominence is probably symptomatic of a existing rot in the system.



Of course, I agree with you that Muslim science is not a contradiction in terms, but the fact is that some influential Muslim leaders view anything non-religious as a waste of time, even sacrilegious. They influence their followers to view worldly success as almost sinful.

I completely agree, IbnRushd also wrote a book to rebuttal Al-Ghzali:Incoherence of the incoherence, but it failed to revive philosophy which was a main engine for scientific research.


here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

"Incoherence of the Philosophers:
His 11th century book titled The Incoherence of the Philosophers marks a major turn in Islamic epistemology. The encounter with skepticism led Ghazali to embrace a form of theological occasionalism, or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present will of God.
The Incoherence also marked a turning point in Islamic philosophy in its vehement rejections of Aristotle and Plato. The book took aim at the falasifa, a loosely defined group of Islamic philosophers from the 8th through the 11th centuries (most notable among them Avicenna and Al-Farabi) who drew intellectually upon the Ancient Greeks. Ghazali bitterly denounced Aristotle, Socrates and other Greek writers as non-believers and labeled those who employed their methods and ideas as corrupters of the Islamic faith.
In the next century, Averroes(IbnRushd) drafted a lengthy rebuttal of Ghazali's Incoherence entitled the Incoherence of the Incoherence; however, the epistemological course of Islamic thought had already been set.
This long-held argument has been disputed. Some argue that Al Ghazali was the first intellectual to champion the separation between several disciplines wrongly classified under falsafa (Arabic word for philosophy but one that used to include physics, maths and logic).]]. "Al Ghazali argued that some fundamentalists, who perceive falsafa to be incompatible with religion, tend to categorically reject all views adopted by 'philosophers', including scientific fact like the lunar and solar eclipse. And when that person is later persuaded of a certain view, he tends to blindly accept all other views held by philosophers"."

 

[forcetrip]

R&D costs money and brains. Muslims are happier just buying ipads and researching for western countries of residence. Cannot keep living in the glory days and expect them to return .. Change never happens that way.

 

[Developereo]

I am quoting your post along with that of fauj historian because they in a way are related.

The corporatisation of research along with the fact that most of the avenues of easy research where an individual genius could do it all by himself are exhausted,it has only added one more requirement to the mix.capital.

Stable state was required even during renaissance period for scientific research.

But it in any way does not lowers the requirement of personal qualities that are required for success in research.

Cultures which stresses on collective identity and conformity over individual brilliance whether it is Islamic culture or Indian culture or for that matter oriental culture,it is lagging in scientific research.

A lot of Indians and Chinese/Japanese are active in research field but most of them are migrants to either US or Europe.Don't throw the statistics of patents held by chinese or japanese firms as most of them are in field of applied research not theoretical one.

There is plenty of individual ambition and spark in all people, even from Eastern cultures. The proof is that when these people go to the West, they do just fine in the scientific research arenas. What is lacking in the Eastern countries, until recently, is a support base so they can apply their talents with some hope of reward. Outside the military, civil society had been largely indifferent towards scientific talent.

Even in medieval Europe, most of the artists, scientists and philosophers were state (or church) supported. The same this is true of Muslim scientists in Islam's golden age.

The basic point is that military and commercial interests require technological competence to maintain their strength. Whichever society embraces that fact, and nurtures native (or immigrant) talent, tends to prosper. Societies which forget this reality tend to decay into irrelevance.

 

[anonymus]

There is plenty of individual ambition and spark in all people, even from Eastern cultures. The proof is that when these people go to the West, they do just fine in the scientific research arenas. What is lacking in the Eastern countries, until recently, is a support base so they can apply their talents with some hope of reward. Outside the military, civil society had been largely indifferent towards scientific talent.

Even in medieval Europe, most of the artists, scientists and philosophers were state (or church) supported. The same this is true of Muslim scientists in Islam's golden age.

The basic point is that military and commercial interests require technological competence to maintain their strength. Whichever society embraces that fact, and nurtures native (or immigrant) talent, tends to prosper. Societies which forget this reality tend to decay into irrelevance.

You have skirted around my main point.For scientific research to flourish,traditionally collectivist cultures need to change how they raise their kids and how their societies function.Else whatever brilliant individual take birth in such a culture would have to leave where diversity of opinions is tolerated.

Most of the countries whether it is China or India recognises need to change their curriculum to foster scientific thought .The only disadvantage Islamic world has is that here any in congruent thought process could lead to the person ending up dead.Blasphemy laws and dominance of clerics directly affects scientific temper.Even if blasphemy laws may not have direct relation to say predicting wobble of the orbit of mercury,a person who is raised in a culture where he has to watch every step of his would not be able to accept novel interpretations.

People's Psyche matter for scientific research.The basic formulae used by Einstein in Special theory of relativity were around for two decades and were already derived by Leibniz but it was only Einstein who was able to interpret them in terms of variation of rate of passage of time wrt to velocity thus expanding upon those theorems to provide a comprehensive special theory of relativity.

 

[Don777]

many Indian scientists have won Nobel prizes for their work... oh but then u are a pakistani.. it's ok !!

Fauj is correct. It is not only Muslims, but people of all religions have these issue. All the religions were made to make people come closer, be unite. Once it is achived, then there we should keep religion aside and think with open mind. As religions call us to be unite, so it also says us to be tollerent towards others and open to accept new ideas from new peoples who have come close to us because of religion. Once we achive these, arts, science and all will automaticall follow.

 

[anonymus]

Fauj is correct. It is not only Muslims, but people of all religions have these issue. All the religions were made to make people come closer, be unite. Once it is achived, then there we should keep religion aside and think with open mind. As religions call us to be unite, so it also says us to be tollerent towards others and open to accept new ideas from new peoples who have come close to us because of religion. Once we achive these, arts, science and all will automaticall follow.

It is a cultural problem rather than religious one.All collectivist cultures face this problem.Only difference is that in religiously driven culture,trying to rectify shortcomings end up people being dead.

 

[AUz]

^^^^

Muslims AND R&D?

*cough cough*

On a more serious note, "Medieval Europeans" were the first civilization in human history to have embraced a degree of "openness" needed for scientific pursuits.

First read some books , on history of scientific development of human civilization , before completely making a fool out of yourself. Don't talk as if you know anything ...

Your dumbassness has come out clearly.

 

[anonymus]

Double post.

 

[AUz]

^^^^


On a more serious note, "Medieval Europeans" were the first civilization in human history to have embraced a degree of "openness" needed for scientific pursuits.

First read some books , on history of scientific development of human civilization , before completely making a fool out of yourself. Don't talk as if you know anything ...

Your dumbassness has come out clearly.

 

[Developereo]

You have skirted around my main point.For scientific research to flourish,traditionally collectivist cultures need to change how they raise their kids and how their societies function. Else whatever brilliant individual take birth in such a culture would have to leave where diversity of opinions is tolerated.

Yes, there is an aversion to risk taking in collectivist cultures which put emphasis on conformity. Conversely, one could claim that collectivist cultures foster greater cooperation and exchange of ideas, as opposed to individualistic, competitive cultures.

There is a danger of applying post facto explanations which may or may not be true.

Most of the countries whether it is China or India recognises need to change their curriculum to foster scientific thought .The only disadvantage Islamic world has is that here any in congruent thought process could lead to the person ending up dead.Blasphemy laws and dominance of clerics directly affects scientific temper.Even if blasphemy laws may not have direct relation to say predicting wobble of the orbit of mercury,a person who is raised in a culture where he has to watch every step of his would not be able to accept novel interpretations.

I am afraid you have swallowed the anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim propaganda wholesale. Contrary to what popular, and sensationalist, propagandists claim, the vast majority of people in Pakistan do not live their life in abject fear of religious authorities every moment of the day. The blasphemy law is about as relevant to people's daily thought processes as anti-beef laws might be to an average Indian.

The problem in Pakistan is simply that the government has failed to provide governance in all matters, including education and security. The fact that Pakistan is able to keep the pace of military developments shows that there is no inherent problem of psyche.

Once again, the undeniable fact is that scientific productivity lags equally well in non-Muslim countries without stable governance.

The basic formulae used by Einstein in Special theory of relativity were around for two decades and were already derived by Leibniz

You mean Lorentz?

 

[user1]

I think two factors weighed more than any other in bringing out the scientific and technological epoch in Northern Europe.

1. Institutionalisation of research which includes state support for making of universities and institutions like the Royal Society, this brought sharing and dissemination of research work, this was also aided by the advent of printing press and the cultural shifts brought by the 'Age of Reason'. That Institutionalisation has now evolved into corporatism.

2. Enormous wealth and resources that started to pour into Western Europe starting from the discovery of Americas (land, labour, minerals, agriculture) and then the colonisation of Eastern realms. That also exists in this day and age as Neo-Colonisation.

The research fed into military technology conquered more people/resources which in turn fed into more research. One might not have been possible without the other. Bright side also accompanied the dark side.

Can we follow the same route? or do we need to devise new strategies?

 

[kalu_miah]

You have to have a system where people can be developed using clean air, water and food and then solve problems using their creativity. The system must be adaptable (historical continuity) so it can pick up new skills and knowledge from other systems and also the system must be large enough so it can compete in economies of scale with other competing systems.

So a human being when transplanted to a better system will show good results and high productivity, whether that is in R&D or any other human endeavor, but in a poor or small system, human beings will not be developed due to malnutrition and even if they have proper nutrition, they may not have the opportunity to use their creativity to solve problems.

So creating proper adaptable system that are large enough and high historical continuity is important. Any particular religion as a part of social and cultural fabric, has little to do with human productivity or performance.

I don't believe it was Al-Ghazali that killed R&D, it was the Mongols that essentially gave a body blow to the Islamic system, while Western Europe escaped Mongol invasion due to Ogedei's death. So Western Europe had a system that was large enough and had higher historical continuity than any other systems on the planet, propelling them to achieve what they did.

Now China and India are leveraging the large size of their system to improve competitive advantage. But they lack historical continuity because of the invasions they had to absorb and go through forced transformations. So it will take some time for the molested part of the world to achieve HDI level that unmolested part of the world has already achieved. Forming voluntary regional unions using democratic means is one way to gain the advantage of size, while retaining high historical continuity of individual countries.

 

[Developereo]

^^ I disagree with the 'size' part. Japan and Germany showed time and again that size doesn't matter.

 

[anonymus]

Yes, there is an aversion to risk taking in collectivist cultures which put emphasis on conformity.

Agree on this point.

If you want to study further on the effects of culture on individual's Nach,there is a study done by MCcleland in kakinada(India) and Japan.Also relevant would be the books authored by sudhir Kakkar{a psychologist} (Culture and Psyche and the Inner world).They have a description of how doting mothers destroy the scientific temper of Indian children by cutrailing independent thought(would also apply to pakistanis as you people have similar culture even though different religion).

Wanted to but can't post the links as i was not able to find one and have read these directly from hard copy.

I am afraid you have swallowed the anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim propaganda wholesale.

Contrary to what popular, and sensationalist, propagandists claim, the vast majority of people in Pakistan do not live their life in abject fear of religious authorities every moment of the day. The blasphemy law is about as relevant to people's daily thought processes as anti-beef laws might be to an average Indian.

There is nothing like swallowing propaganda wholesale.I quoted this example since i have seen massive support for mumtaz qadri.Even your lawyers showered him with roses.What is left to imagination after seeing that.

Anyway Blasphemy laws were an example that i have quoted since a lot of people could connect with it.

The non existent scientific temper is not exclusively a religious problem even though religion plays a great role in it.

Cultural aspect of innovation is multifactoral.

A family with disciplinarian father in which the children annihilates there Psyche without even subconscious effort of rebellion has very low probability of producing a true scientist(although the person could get Phd but true research would not be forthcoming).

A doting mother leads to momma's boy which has such a fragile psyche that the person is not able to take even day to day functional decisions.

The problem in Pakistan is simply that the government has failed to provide governance in all matters, including education and security. The fact that Pakistan is able to keep the pace of military developments shows that there is no inherent problem of psyche.

Don't want to insult but repainting North Korean and Chinese missiles and assembling nuclear bomb with Finnish designs and Chinese help does not count as great scientific achievement.

Didn't wanted to bring this point as it would derail discussion but it has a bearing on overall direction of discussion.

Once again, the undeniable fact is that scientific productivity lags equally well in non-Muslim countries without stable governance.

And also in a lot of rich countries with stable governance.

You mean Lorentz?

My mistake.Always confuse between these two names.

 

[JayAtl]

The Christian evangelist and far right of the American voting base and republicans are no different in their views than those espoused by the Muslim countries. Their aversion to science and belief in creationism over evolution give them the same objections to R&D investment from the govt. The only saving grace for us is that they reside in a secular democracy and unlike Muslim countries, don't have the constitution mandate or a sole dictatorship to execute a slowdown on govt spending towards R&D .

Yes it is true that R&D investment is at its worse in poorer economies.