Questions on 9/11 remain unanswered

[gambit]

All I can say is that either cia were involved in the attack and if they say they had no knowledge then clearly they are incompetent

Simple just say incompetent we dont need mitigation

How many inquiries were conducted against negligent executives/officials? How many people from CIA/Pentagon/Aviation admin/other agencies were fired/removed/resigned after they were found incompetent for their jobs?

So this is what your arguments DETERIORATED to: The incompetency of institutions, processes, and people.

Tell US which country in the world is immunized against such? Tell US which country whose institutions, processes, and people could have prevented such a sneak attack? Probably the only country that could have prevented a '9/11' on its soil is North Korea......So if competency is the issue, then what are we to make of Pakistan's failure/refusal to exercise absolute sovereignty over Pakistani soil to the extent that Taliban and al-Qaeda can cross the Afghanistan-Pakistan borders at will? What level of incompetency is this?

Pretty prophetic, eh?

 

[lem34]

In any country with adequate checks and balances/morality, a railway minister resign when a serious rail accident occurs.

I don't find anybody resigning after 9/11 incident.

Yea come to think of it you make a valid point

 

[lem34]

So this is what your arguments DETERIORATED to: The incompetency of institutions, processes, and people.

Tell US which country in the world is immunized against such? Tell US which country whose institutions, processes, and people could have prevented such a sneak attack? Probably the only country that could have prevented a '9/11' on its soil is North Korea......So if competency is the issue, then what are we to make of Pakistan's failure/refusal to exercise absolute sovereignty over Pakistani soil to the extent that Taliban and al-Qaeda can cross the Afghanistan-Pakistan borders at will? What level of incompetency is this?

Pretty prophetic, eh?

Mr Gambit you fell for it hook line and sinker. This theory of complicit or incompetent is ridiculous isnt it. But then thats exactly the argument that your american govt and your press and other enemies of pakistan have been propagating against the country that I love. Your govt and press have been saying this about ISI ie that they are complicit or incompetent regarding the Osama killing. Pakistan faces constant adverse often unfair propaganda from western media and govts like this ridiculous assertion. Now coming on here do you now how we feel when we face constant unwarrented propaganda when we have lost more precious lives in this struggle against terrorism than anyone. please try to u n d e r s t a n d from our perspective before you judge us.

 

[gambit]

Mr Gambit you fell for it hook line and sinker. This theory of complicit or incompetent is ridiculous isnt it. But then thats exactly the argument that your american govt and your press and other enemies of pakistan have been propagating against the country that I love. Your govt and press have been saying this about ISI ie that they are complicit or incompetent regarding the Osama killing. Pakistan faces constant adverse often unfair propaganda from western media and govts like this ridiculous assertion. Now coming on here do you now how we feel when we face constant unwarrented propaganda when we have lost more precious lives in this struggle against terrorism than anyone. please try to u n d e r s t a n d from our perspective before you judge us.

You really think that you got me 'hook line and sinker'? Are you really that desperate to do a 'gotcha' on me? And where did I say that incompetency was a 'ridiculous' notion? EVERY institutions, processes, and person has some level of incompetency, either deliberately built-in or accidental. If we were incompetent back in 2001, we can perform that self indictment better than Pakistan or anyone else can. The question is can Pakistan do the same for where Pakistan is responsible.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Mr Gambit you fell for it hook line and sinker. This theory of complicit or incompetent is ridiculous isnt it. But then thats exactly the argument that your american govt and your press and other enemies of pakistan have been propagating against the country that I love. Your govt and press have been saying this about ISI ie that they are complicit or incompetent regarding the Osama killing. Pakistan faces constant adverse often unfair propaganda from western media and govts like this ridiculous assertion. Now coming on here do you now how we feel when we face constant unwarrented propaganda when we have lost more precious lives in this struggle against terrorism than anyone. please try to u n d e r s t a n d from our perspective before you judge us.

If Pakistan is incomepetent (as are most developing countries) then you will have our sympathy. As to the innocent dead, we have nothing but sympathy.

Its the complicity thats a problem. You surely do not think that it was incompetence that LET was banned by Pakistan, but the same gang of hafeez and his charity workers were allowed to change the nameplate at muridke and function under that nameplate? Is that how ANY govt on earth other than Pakistan understand the meaning of banning? Or even today JUD is banned but they print fund raising ads in mainstream newspapers and the govt looks the other way. Can you name where else can this happen without some people in power being sympathetic to terrorism? You should realise there's a terrorism problem with the pakistan state, elements of it anyways.

Back to topic now.

 

[lem34]

You really think that you got me 'hook line and sinker'? Are you really that desperate to do a 'gotcha' on me? And where did I say that incompetency was a 'ridiculous' notion? EVERY institutions, processes, and person has some level of incompetency, either deliberately built-in or accidental. If we were incompetent back in 2001, we can perform that self indictment better than Pakistan or anyone else can. The question is can Pakistan do the same for where Pakistan is responsible.

Mate you know I as you put it "gotcha". Take it in the right spirit If u were in the uk i might even be pushed to buy you a bud

---------- Post added at 11:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

If Pakistan is incomepetent (as are most developing countries) then you will have our sympathy. As to the innocent dead, we have nothing but sympathy.

Its the complicity thats a problem. You surely do not think that it was incompetence that LET was banned by Pakistan, but the same gang of hafeez and his charity workers were allowed to change the nameplate at muridke and function under that nameplate? Is that how ANY govt on earth other than Pakistan understand the meaning of banning? Or even today JUD is banned but they print fund raising ads in mainstream newspapers and the govt looks the other way. Can you name where else can this happen withour some people in power being sympathetic to terrorism? You should realise there's a terrorism problem with the pakistan state, elements of it anyways.

Back to topic now.

The whole theory is ridiculos in my opinion. You can not know and not be complicit and be competent

 

[notsuperstitious]

Mate you know I as you put it "gotcha". Take it in the right spirit If u were in the uk i might even be pushed to buy you a bud

---------- Post added at 11:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------



The whole theory is ridiculos in my opinion. You can not know and not be complicit and be competent

Whats ridiculous is the notion that a failure makes the whole system either incompetent or complicit. Thats like saying because Waqar was taken to the cleaners in one match by Jadeja, that means Waqar was either a poor bowler or he had taken money.

Thats the kind of illogical guess work one finds in all these 9/11 apologists.

 

[lem34]

Whats ridiculous is the notion that a failure makes the whole system either incompetent or complicit. Thats like saying because Waqar was taken to the cleaners in one match by Jadeja, that means Waqar was either a poor bowler or he had taken money.

Thats the kind of illogical guess work one finds in all these 9/11 apologists.

Fatehbhai couldnt agree with you more.

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 PM ----------

Come on Gambit you can think of something nasty bitter or bad to say about pakistan go for it

 

[gambit]

If Pakistan is incomepetent (as are most developing countries) then you will have our sympathy. As to the innocent dead, we have nothing but sympathy.

Its the complicity thats a problem. You surely do not think that it was incompetence that LET was banned by Pakistan, but the same gang of hafeez and his charity workers were allowed to change the nameplate at muridke and function under that nameplate? Is that how ANY govt on earth other than Pakistan understand the meaning of banning? Or even today JUD is banned but they print fund raising ads in mainstream newspapers and the govt looks the other way. Can you name where else can this happen withour some people in power being sympathetic to terrorism? You should realise there's a terrorism problem with the pakistan state, elements of it anyways.

Back to topic now.

The 'incompetency' argument is legitimate but can be difficult to make the charge stick. I will give you an example of a deliberately built-in incompetency mechanism: The separation of the branches of government in the US.

The Executive does not make any law. The Legislature make the law but does not have the power to make it the force of the land. The Judicial review the law to see if it comply with a higher law. Then the law is transferred to the Executive for final approval and to make it the force of the land.

The entire process is very cumbersome, inefficient, kludgy, time-consuming, and give the impression that the US is incompetent in making important decisions. But in light of reducing the odds of a dictatorship, the process works very well and Americans as a whole approved of the process in spite of its flaws.

The incompetency argument for 9/11 should and must be viewed in the same light. If the CIA and the FBI failed to communicate a suspicion, what were the institutional barriers that allowed and perhaps even encourage such an incompetent relationship? Are there commonalities between US and other countries about this? The answer to this question made many governments uncomfortable and they in turn made changes to their institutions and processes.

 

[lem34]

The 'incompetency' argument is legitimate but can be difficult to make the charge stick. I will give you an example of a deliberately built-in incompetency mechanism: The separation of the branches of government in the US.

The Executive does not make any law. The Legislature make the law but does not have the power to make it the force of the land. The Judicial review the law to see if it comply with a higher law. Then the law is transferred to the Executive for final approval and to make it the force of the land.

The entire process is very cumbersome, inefficient, kludgy, time-consuming, and give the impression that the US is incompetent in making important decisions. But in light of reducing the odds of a dictatorship, the process works very well and Americans as a whole approved of the process in spite of its flaws.

The incompetency argument for 9/11 should and must be viewed in the same light. If the CIA and the FBI failed to communicate a suspicion, what were the institutional barriers that allowed and perhaps even encourage such an incompetent relationship? Are there commonalities between US and other countries about this? The answer to this question made many governments uncomfortable and they in turn made changes to their institutions and processes.

Gambit thats stretching the theory of separations of power to the nth degree to apply it here. Lord Denning would have been proud of you. im not sure it applies her though. I think it is effective because absolute power in one person corrupts and I dont actually see it as cumbersome or ineficient althoug i accept to a layman it may look cumbersome. it fullfils its purpose adequatly

Why dont you simply say that america and its agencies were neither complicit nor incompetent. Thats what I genuinly belive. Humans make up agencies or institutions and we are not all perfect all knowing

 

[gambit]

Gambit thats stretching the theory of separations of power to the nth degree to apply it here. Lord Denning would have been proud of you. im not sure it applies her though. I think it is effective because absolute power in one person corrupts and I dont actually see it as cumbersome or ineficient althoug i accept to a layman it may look cumbersome. it fullfils its purpose adequatly

Why dont you simply say that america and its agencies were neither complicit nor incompetent. Thats what I genuinly belive. Humans make up agencies or institutions and we are not all perfect all knowing

Then you need to take a class in process engineering. I do not know about wherever you are at, but from what I learned, what I gave was a prime example of inefficient process engineering IN LIGHT OF something else considered more important.

 

[lem34]

Then you need to take a class in process engineering. I do not know about wherever you are at, but from what I learned, what I gave was a prime example of inefficient process engineering IN LIGHT OF something else considered more important.

Sorry mate am not an engineer so dont know from an engin perspective but did constit law in 1st year at uni. Am i to understand you are an engineer? Thats far more usefl than what i do lol

 

[gambit]

Sorry mate am not an engineer so dont know from an engin perspective but did constit law in 1st year at uni. Am i to understand you are an engineer? Thats far more usefl than what i do lol

Say Saddam order to have Ahmed killed. The entire process:

- From Saddam's internal decision,
- To the verbalization of that decision,
- To the physical detention of Ahmed by a soldier,
- To the loading of a weapon by that soldier,
- To the final shooting of Ahmed.

Is called a 'dictatorial process'. There are no interferences. Even if the rifle is jammed or the soldier tripped on his way to detain Ahmed, there are subordinate processes to correct those unintentional delays in order to comply with Saddams's order.

We have many such 'dictatorial processes' in life. An operating system has a scheduler to regulate tasks and the flow of tasks. A CPU has a memory controller to regulate data and data flow. A simple lock on a door is very much a dictatorial device. You can either bypass the lock by destroying it or comply with the lock's demands. For the latter, you can either insert the authorized key or manipulate the tumblers by other means but once the lock's tumblers accepted your manipulation, it is no different than if you had used the authorized key. So the lock is a 'dictatorial' device.

The example I gave of the US government's law making process is an appropriate example of the differences between dictatorial processes and built-in incompetency.

 

[ptldM3]

Impartial commission should look beyond the witnesses and should include, atleast some basic scientific facts.
fact is, 9-11 incident defy even the basics of logic's and yet you want scientist and engineers to believe it?

Any one who knows any thing about a/c structures will find it unbelievable that the weaker wings penetrated through thick iron steel structure.Anyone who knows about concrete structures reinforced by thick iron bars built in double mesh structure finds the collapse ridiculous.

.

That is a basic scientific facts? You have to be joking. When the aircraft impacted the towers they were traveling at 490mph and 590mph. The outer structure of the WTC was not as strong as you think, certainly not strong enough to stop airliners, even if the steel columns were exceptionally thick they had no chance of surviving an impact of 142-204 metric tons of aircraft impacting between 490-590mph. Moreover, the aircraft's wings are quite large and quite heavy. The aircraft also has some very heavy components such as engine and landing gears. More important is that video and photographs confirm that things such as landing gears actually punched a hole through the other side of the WTC and landed on the street (again confirmed by photographs). Also what is foolish on your part is that there are close up photographs showing that the WTC's columns were destroyed by the aircraft, in fact let me post one:



So are you suggesting that this is an elusion or some kind of trickery?


Clearly the aircraft destroyed much of the structures columns, that alone is not enough to bring down a building. The combination was damage, fire, and uneven load distribution.

911 conspiracy nuts often shout that jet fuel could not have burnt strong enough to melt the beams, but the 911 conspiracy nuts make several embarrassing mistakes, firstly jet fuel was not the only thing burning, there was thousands of pounds of rubber, foam, carpet, wood, and plastic complimented by plenty of oxygen. Nextly, the beams did not have to melt, they only needed sufficient heat for them to weaken or bent. Remember many of the supports or beams were destroyed this meant that other beams were supporting weight that they were not designed to support. What we had was a beams that were under enormous stress from the weight they were supporting, coupled by intense flames. All the weight coupled with heat caused the beams to sag.

The horizontal beams simply started to sag and pull the outer walls or beams inwards, after a while the outer walls or beams snapped, this caused the top half of the structure to fall, built up kinetic energy and destroy each floor bellow.

 

[Martian]

It is now clear that no American agency/individual was accused for their negligence to prevent 9/11.

Next question is:

Why no proceedings in a competent US Court of law were ever initiated against OBL/Zwahiari and their colleagues? Why these people were not charged in absentia by a US court? So far Al Qaida has been accused by US Admin and not by a Court of Law.