Question: Pakistan Army Mobilization

[Mutakalim]

Another question I forgot to add: How do you decrease mobilization time? Better command and control? Better communications? Better expressways to move troops?

Main thing is Better Management.

 

[fatman17]

Each solder has mobile and its call mobilezation .ab to bacha bacha moblize ho gya yaar jab se china ke mobile ayee hai 2killo aata ke sath 2sim free hain na


Abut time signal full a rahy hoon to her wakt pakistani fauj or awam moblize nazer ati hain kiryany wala ho ya rikshow wala ya pheri wala .ap fauji ki baat kerty ho

behave yourself...

Never mind

 

[niaz]

In the age of stand off weapons the mobilization time is not as relevant as it was before. The force can be projected at an invading enemy from a stand off range even during mobilization.

No sir stand-off weapons do not eliminate the need for mobility.

No matter what kind of stand-off weapon systems or heavy bombs such as daisy cutters you employ; unless you nuke the place so that no one survives; boots on the ground are needed to clear the area from the opposing forces and hold it against immediate counter attacks. An army without ‘Rapid Response’ capability would not succeed against insurgency & in asymmetric conflicts which most planners agree would be the norm in the 21st century.

British Army’ experience in Afghanistan resulted in establishment of a new mobile force called Light Protected Mobile Infantry; 6 infantry battalions mounted on Foxhound vehicles which can carry crew of 2 & 4 combat soldiers at 100 km per hour.

In Pakistani environment, terrorists & separatists work in small groups to avoid detection; may be 10 to 15 men at most. Therefore, in addition to motorised light infantry brigades for rapid reinforcement & a couple of heli-borne battalions for vertical insertion; about 50 squads of about 20 to 25 men each, of lightly armed highly mobile but lethal force is required to combat Baluch separatists & Taliban terrorists.

 

[Kompromat]

No sir stand-off weapons do not eliminate the need for mobility.

No matter what kind of stand-off weapon systems or heavy bombs such as daisy cutters you employ; unless you nuke the place so that no one survives; boots on the ground are needed to clear the area from the opposing forces and hold it against immediate counter attacks. An army without ‘Rapid Response’ capability would not succeed against insurgency & in asymmetric conflicts which most planners agree would be the norm in the 21st century.

In the British Army’ experience in Afghanistan resulted in establishment of a new mobile force called Light Protected Mobile Infantry; 6 infantry battalions mounted on Foxhound vehicles which can carry crew of 2 & 4 combat soldiers at 100 km per hour.

In Pakistani environment, terrorists & separatists work in small groups to avoid detection; may be 10 to 15 men at most. Therefore, in addition to motorised light infantry brigades for rapid reinforcement & a couple of heli-borne battalions for vertical insertion; about 50 squads of about 20 to 25 men each, of lightly armed highly mobile but lethal force is required to combat Baluch separatists & Taliban terrorists.

Sir please consider the first and second gulf war, there were no NATO troops in Iraq when stand off weapons like the Tomahawk started to re-write the rules of invasion.

 

[PakArmyFTW]

No sir stand-off weapons do not eliminate the need for mobility.

No matter what kind of stand-off weapon systems or heavy bombs such as daisy cutters you employ; unless you nuke the place so that no one survives; boots on the ground are needed to clear the area from the opposing forces and hold it against immediate counter attacks. An army without ‘Rapid Response’ capability would not succeed against insurgency & in asymmetric conflicts which most planners agree would be the norm in the 21st century.

In the British Army’ experience in Afghanistan resulted in establishment of a new mobile force called Light Protected Mobile Infantry; 6 infantry battalions mounted on Foxhound vehicles which can carry crew of 2 & 4 combat soldiers at 100 km per hour.

In Pakistani environment, terrorists & separatists work in small groups to avoid detection; may be 10 to 15 men at most. Therefore, in addition to motorised light infantry brigades for rapid reinforcement & a couple of heli-borne battalions for vertical insertion; about 50 squads of about 20 to 25 men each, of lightly armed highly mobile but lethal force is required to combat Baluch separatists & Taliban terrorists.

Makes sense. You can't take ground by just launching cruise missiles and dropping bombs. Aren't those just used to soften up the enemy before the invasion comes?

 

[niaz]

Sir please consider the first and second gulf war, there were no NATO troops in Iraq when stand off weapons like the Tomahawk started to re-write the rules of invasion.

I have read the book by Schwarzkopf. Mobility was of paramount importance. Cruise missile attacks & one month’s bombing campaign was only meant to soften up the ground defences. The ground phase began when reconnaissance units of the 6th French Light Armoured Division advanced into Iraq on February 24, 1991,

Initial objective for the French was an airfield 90 miles inside Iraq at As-Salman. Reinforced by the 2/325th Airborne Infantry Regiment from the 82nd Airborne, the French crossed the border unopposed and attacked north. By the end of the first day, the French 6th Light Armoured Division, supported by the 82nd Airborne Division had secured its objectives and continued the attack north, securing the highways fromBaghdad to southern Iraq.

You will agree that advance of 90 miles during one day represents high degree of mobility.

Second Gulf war had two phases. The first ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’ was a brief, conventionally fought war, in which a combined force of troops from United States & Great Britain with smaller contingents from several other countries invaded Iraq on March 20, 2003 and after approximately three weeks of fighting; Iraq was occupied by coalition forces.
In my book that is also a rapid advance.

 

[Kompromat]

I have read the book by Schwarzkopf. Mobility was of paramount importance. Cruise missile attacks & one month’s bombing campaign was only meant to soften up the ground defences. The ground phase began when reconnaissance units of the 6th French Light Armoured Division advanced into Iraq on February 24, 1991,

Initial objective for the French was an airfield 90 miles inside Iraq at As-Salman. Reinforced by the 2/325th Airborne Infantry Regiment from the 82nd Airborne, the French crossed the border unopposed and attacked north. By the end of the first day, the French 6th Light Armoured Division, supported by the 82nd Airborne Division had secured its objectives and continued the attack north, securing the highways fromBaghdad to southern Iraq.

You will agree that advance of 90 miles during one day represent high degree of mobility.

Second Gulf war had two phases. The first ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’ was a brief, conventionally fought war, in which a combined force of troops from United States & Great Britain with smaller contingents from several other countries invadedIraq on March 20, 2003 and after approximately three weeks of fighting; Iraq was occupied by coalition forces.
In my book that is also a rapid advance.

Yes sir and this validates my point that Mobilization in the age of Stand Off Weapons doesn't have the same meaning as for instance it did in the 65 engagements. The dynamics of force projection after the introduction of Stand Off Weapons has changed irreversibly.

 

[SQ8]

Depends on the role of the military and the fighting tactics it assumes. Both the Soviet and Iraqi army preferred slow but fortified rolling formations.. the Americans and NATO as such prefer mobility because they cannot match these steamrollers. So their idea is to move fast enough to allow for opportunities in flanking options to be created.

In Pakistan's case, there used to be a quasi steamroller-part mobile concept with India's now obsolete Sunderji doctrine..which meant that two different levels of mobilization had to be undertaken.. offensive and defensive. Both as a good and bad thing, most of Pakistan's critical population centres along with villages that house forces are close to the border.. hence the mobilization of defensive forces is rather quick... in some case. with troops recalled to base they can be at the front lines in less than 5-6 hours. The offensive corps are both in the front and held back and those take a little longer to mobilize. @Xeric can give you slightly better ess/guesstimates. Actual times are generally classified but the terrain and positioning of Pakistan provides for a rather swift time from barracks to front line.

Any reduction therefore in my opinion come from better organization times(via drills) in the Active duty barracks and faster transport/routes to the combat zone.

 

[niaz]

I have also come across opinions by US military experts that limit the role of tanks. Unlike the cold war when NATO countries were afraid that 5,000 soviet tanks rolling across from East Germany and overwhelm Western German defences; US developed battled field nukes such as ‘Honest John’ ( MGR-1A & MGR-1B) to neutralise Soviet threat in case of breakthrough; 21st century wars would be mostly asymmetric with few conventional Division or Corps size engagements. Besides, modern attack helicopters such as Apache can make mincemeat of the tank formations.

Instead of mass infantry/armour attacks, stress is on the ‘Lean & mean’ army with quick response battalion size task force subdivided into platoon size combat teams of highly trained and mobile infantry which can deal with any threat.

Nato Rapid Response Force (NRF) will have land, air, maritime & special operations task forces. NRF will initially consists of about 13,000 (Div. strength) and probably based in Ukraine to counter Russian threat.

War against terrorists is not going to be won any time soon. Obviously it is too much to expect that Pakistan creates a Rapid Response combined arms force of similar size & nature. And you cannot be everywhere at once in the urban centres.

Once major strongholds in FATA have been cleared; a couple of battalions of soldiers with body armour broken into about 50 platoons of 25 soldiers each, stationed at strategic locations in KPK, Baluchistan, Punjab and in Karachi may be needed to rapidly seal off the area of the incident and kill off the terrorist before they can escape.

WOT would be along grind but it is a must if Pakistan is to survive.

The above could be totally unrealistic. I would welcome views from Pakistani military professionals whether it is possible or am I living a cuckoo land?

 

[Xeric]

Depends on the role of the military and the fighting tactics it assumes. Both the Soviet and Iraqi army preferred slow but fortified rolling formations.. the Americans and NATO as such prefer mobility because they cannot match these steamrollers. So their idea is to move fast enough to allow for opportunities in flanking options to be created.

In Pakistan's case, there used to be a quasi steamroller-part mobile concept with India's now obsolete Sunderji doctrine..which meant that two different levels of mobilization had to be undertaken.. offensive and defensive. Both as a good and bad thing, most of Pakistan's critical population centres along with villages that house forces are close to the border.. hence the mobilization of defensive forces is rather quick... in some case. with troops recalled to base they can be at the front lines in less than 5-6 hours. The offensive corps are both in the front and held back and those take a little longer to mobilize. @Xeric can give you slightly better ess/guesstimates. Actual times are generally classified but the terrain and positioning of Pakistan provides for a rather swift time from barracks to front line.

Any reduction therefore in my opinion come from better organization times(via drills) in the Active duty barracks and faster transport/routes to the combat zone.

Hello there! I had 2 questions and hoped you guys could answer them. (1) First off, what exactly is mobilization in military terms? Is it basically getting your army to the front line, getting it ready, etc? What is it?

(2) And how fast can Pakistan mobilize its army?

Thanks!

Mobilization in its simplest form can be explained as making the requisite, appropriate and calculated amount of force to reach its point of application, in such time that it is able to act / react.

For example.
-Against an armored assault, moving just men without armour cover is useless. (A)

-While going in offensive with large armour component, if you make the armour to reach its point of application but the air defence elements are not able to reach in time, again it will be useless as armour without air cover / protection will almost result into the enemey duck shooting your tanks. (B)

-A brigade/Unit/Company could hold off an enemy attack / retain its position till lets say 1400 hrs 7 Jan, thereafter, the position would become untenable and might be lost. Now, after blunting the attack, you need to go for a counter attack before the enemy could recover or else the follow up echelons of enemy would over run your position. Now, for this counter attack to be effective while using the same position / making that position as pivot of maneuver, your reinforcements should reach that position lets say by 1200 hrs on 7 Jan. If these can be made to reach there in time, your counter attack is likely to succeed. Thereafter ( after 1400hrs), you may bring in an entire division and it might again become useless, as the enemy would already have taken over your position thus devoiding you of a launch pad from where the attack could have commenced. So, a brigade minus reaching in time would have been better than a brigade plus reaching there late. That's mobilization (tactical) mobilization.

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@Oscar

Mobilization is of two types: Strategic Mobilization (SM) and Tactical Mobilization (TM).

-Moving the forces from peace locations to its battle locations is SM.

-Moving of forces within a battlefield is TM.

Both of these are different yet connected subjects. Here, let me explain:

Let's say a Corps/Div/Brigade/Unit has 10000 vehicles which are required to move from its peace location to its battle locations. Out of these 10K wheels, there are lets say:
700 tanks
1000 APCs
4000 trucks
3000 jeeps (out which there are 500 jeeps that carry special equipment like RRs / TOW missiles and remaining are the normal jeeps that you see everyday)
100 cranes
150 Earth Movers
etc
etc

Now these are just the few types that i can say now. All of these have a different speeds, load classification (like a bridge that can take a truck may not be fit to take a tank or a crane hence wheres the trucks could take that route, the tanks would not). Again, if rail move is also involved, here in Pakistan we have such overhead bridges beneath which an artillery gun (with a longer barrel) could not be moved while being mounted on a train due to its height.

Now also understand that these 10K vehicles would not move together. But then they being part of the same formation/unit also have to be there together, remember points (A) and (B) above. Also, move would have to carried out within specific times with restrictions on move so as to avoid detection. Lastly, these 10K vehicles are also on a clock.

Now make 100 packets of 100 vehicles each out of these 10K vehicles. Line up these 100 vehicles with a gap keeping in view the air threat. How long would that line be? There's a simple formula to work that out, but it would be a long line. Move packet 1, followed by pkt 2, 3 and so forth. Now, if vehicle-1 of pkt-1 moves at 0600 hrs, the last (vehicle-100) will not be able to turn its wheels at the same time, rather it may move at 0630 hrs plus minus a few minutes. Hence, even if vehicle-1 had moved at 0600 hrs, vehicle-10000 would probably be commencing its move the next day! Due to the length of the convoy. Alternative routes would be good to overcome this issue, but how many alternative routes are available? Put this example in lets say Gujranwala Cantt or Lahore or Kharian.

Imagine vehicle-250 getting stuck at a traffic jam. Imagine pkt-9 being held at a signal. Imagine the confusion that would be there due to civilian traffic. Leave GT Road, imagine these vehicles passing through a small town where there are sharp turns, narrow streets. Imagine an artillery gun being towed by a truck which is unable to make a sharp turning while 200 plus vehicles are behind it.

Pkt-7 was to reach its point of application lets say by 0700 hrs the next day. Pkt-6 at another time at another place and pkt-3 to reach at another point before some other time. Now this is only one formation/div/corps/brigade that i am talking about. Take into consideration the entire Army mobilizing? Pkt-3 of formation moving on GT road from A to B, and at the same time pkt-4 of another formation moving from point B to A, while pkt-6 of a third formation cutting through GT to another side. Bring into mix another few formations. Add some fog and darkness. Put in some angry Pakistanis cursing you while you are blocking their way or speeding through a signal while they have to wait. Forget GT road, imagine these vehicles moving through Model Town, Lahore or Sialkot.

Now, back to first line of above para: "Pkt-7 was to reach its point of application lets say by 0700 hrs the next day ." So, route yellow was allotted to it from 0600 hrs today till 0800 hrs the next day. Within yellow route (which is like 250 km) further distribution was made for other convoys to move on the same route keeping view their time to reach its point of application, so within yellow route, the first 50 kms were available to pkt-7 form 0700-0900hrs (2 hrs), the next 80 kms form 1100-1500hrs (4 hrs) and so on. Now add a few accidents, flat tyres and you'll get a nice fcuk up. Now that's just ONE formation. Add the moving missiles, FC, Police, Rangers, administrative/ration/ammo convoys which are normally thrice the size of the original formation. Bring into play hostile air and that may give you a small glimpse of mobilization.
@PakArmyFTW savvy?

P.S. Dont ask me " how fast can Pakistan mobilize its army?" That's highly confidential.

 

[fatman17]

During OBL raid, it took the local /resident army unit 40 minutes to issue arms to the soldiers from its armoury. During the 2002 standoff, the multan corps moved its "assets" to its forward locations within 72 hours. In both cases not a bad achievement. Single Roads are the biggest hurdle. On the LoC, youre already at your forward location/positions. In general PK mobilizes faster than IN because the distance of its peace-time locations are closer to the battle/forward areas on the eastern border. On the western border, the situation is more fluid and complex, but it is now being rectified by the establishment of BAT-HQ's and BDE-HQ's in Swat and Fata.
in an IN v. PK scenario, i doubt very much that a 1-month aerial bombing campaign of 'shock & awe' will ever be used.both air and land ops will be simultaneous.

 

[Woody Nerd]

hi Xeric... are u in army? if so on what post?

i want to join pak army...i have beeen reading ur posts
i have some questions

 

[Xeric]

hi Xeric... are u in army? if so on what post?

i want to join pak army...i have beeen reading ur posts
i have some questions

Shoot, please.

 

[Woody Nerd]

ok i'll just put them at once...

1- Which personality type are they looking for at issb? introverts/extroverts? intuitive thinkers or the sensing feeling type? Honest or devious?

2- Is life really hard if u retire out of army at major/colonel level? What do these retirees usually do?

3- Which corps has the highest rate of col>brig ascension?

4- Is it true that you should not apply in "even" issb like 136, as they are for cadet college students, practically?

5- Do u get holidays as a captain or major? How many per year?

6- A colonel's pay in peace region like punjab?

7- Will they select an unusually high number of candidates in LC 136 bcz of officers shortage? They have already converted ongoing courses to 3 terms instead of the usual 4 terms.




and some of geo-political nature...
1- Will Pakistan recognize taliban-run Afghanistan in near future, considering the current mood of public and authorities?

2- Will Pakistan prefer Iran over Saudi Arabia as an ally in any conflict involving whole of Middle-east which is affecting Pakistan, in a future scenario? Just suppose it is affecting Pakistan.

3- Do u see a clash between israel/america VS iran/iraq/syria/lebanon/russia in next 5 years?

Your help will be highly appreciated, thanks.

 

[Xeric]

ok i'll just put them at once...
1- Which personality type are they looking for at issb? introverts/extroverts? intuitive thinkers or the sensing feeling type? Honest or devious?

There's no 'type'. You will find almost all of the personality types as you have mentioned in the Army, so i can safely say that these exactly are not the criteria for selection. Things like above average IQ, honesty, integrity, courage, including moral courage, straight forwardness etc are a few things we would like to have in our soldiers. Rest there is not much different among soldiers the world over.

2- Is life really hard if u retire out of army at major/colonel level? What do these retirees usually do?

Yes and no. Depends what you have learned during the service, which in turn would also play a role in what job you get after you retire, hence it's connected.

3- Which corps has the highest rate of col>brig ascension?

None. The promotion % basing on the total number of officers in a corps is generally the same. Ofcourse, Army Supply Corps will have less Brig than Armoured Corps because they have less total strength.

4- Is it true that you should not apply in "even" issb like 136, as they are for cadet college students, practically?

Waisay, itni bareeki mai jaogay tu kuch nh banayga. In any case, it doesnt really matter. ISSB is not give a specific figure for selection. So if you are guud, you'll make it.

5- Do u get holidays as a captain or major? How many per year?

Every one get holidays, there's no specific number. Anni na dalin tu routine leave is enough.

6- A colonel's pay in peace region like punjab?

Depends on the service years. Minimum approx 70K.

7- Will they select an unusually high number of candidates in LC 136 bcz of officers shortage? They have already converted ongoing courses to 3 terms instead of the usual 4 terms.

You need not to worry about that.

and some of geo-political nature...
1- Will Pakistan recognize taliban-run Afghanistan in near future, considering the current mood of public and authorities?

i dont speak for the Army's policy, sir. If you aks my personal opinion, will do whatever would be required for a peaceful Afg that doesnot pose any threat to us due to an Indian/foreign presence.

2- Will Pakistan prefer Iran over Saudi Arabia as an ally in any conflict involving whole of Middle-east which is affecting Pakistan, in a future scenario? Just suppose it is affecting Pakistan.

In international politics, no ones your friend. Safeguarding own interests is what matters. Baki i am sure you must be following the news.

3- Do u see a clash between israel/america VS iran/iraq/syria/lebanon/russia in next 5 years?

It is already there. The intensity will increase.