Punjab Police to buy 5000 M4 Assault Rifles

[Zarvan]

You are absolutely right and spot on. Many like @Zarvan however wants police forces equipped to deal with any situations they can be confronted to,faced with the proliferation of heavy weapons in hands of criminals and terrorists.

He isn't asking for something really fancy,just decent protections (helmets,bulletproof vests) and decent armaments to fight back. If you are with a single pistol and without any protection against heavily armed terrorists/criminals with AKs for exemple,you aren't going to last long........ we sadly "made the experience" of it. I can give you few exemples ;

-When a police patrol came in front of the Kouachi brothers who just attacked Charlie Hebdo journalists,they were totally underpowered against terrorists with bulletproof vests and AKs,they couldn't have done much. Luckily,none were injured. They could have been stopped much earlier if police were properly equipped and protected.

View attachment 438005

-A local Gendarmerie patrol quickly rushed to the scene where the Kouachi brothers were later spotted. The pair were able to heavily injure one of the terrorist (in the neck) but had to retreat after coming under heavy fire because ,they weren't properly equipped to face terrorists with AKs.

View attachment 438007

They could have neutralized them much earlier if they were properly equipped and armed. But we had to wait the intervention of specialized units (GIGN) to neutralize them once for all.

-During the hostage taking at the Bataclan concert hall,a pair of first responding officers entered in the hall and were able to take out one of the terrorist. However they had to retreat as they weren't properly equipped (no heavy body armor,no helmet,no assault rifles) and outgunned by heavily armed terrorists.

Lot of similar stories against heavily armed criminals. Few days ago were heavy gunfire exchange between Gendarmes and criminals.

I know what you would think,obviously these are rare incidents and that is true. Officers are being given heavy protections (body armor,helmets,shields) and assault rifles (thing they never had). On apparence they don't look like infantry soldiers.

View attachment 438016

View attachment 438008

The equipment is locked in the patrol car trunk.

The proportion of interventions on which they'll use these equipments is very low. I myself wouldn't like to see them permanently heavily armed. However,they are now armed to deal with any situations.

@Kaptaan

In Pakistan even robbers are equipped with AK and even Grenades and RPG

You are absolutely right and spot on. Many like @Zarvan however wants police forces equipped to deal with any situations they can be confronted to,faced with the proliferation of heavy weapons in hands of criminals and terrorists.

He isn't asking for something really fancy,just decent protections (helmets,bulletproof vests) and decent armaments to fight back. If you are with a single pistol and without any protection against heavily armed terrorists/criminals with AKs for exemple,you aren't going to last long........ we sadly "made the experience" of it. I can give you few exemples ;

-When a police patrol came in front of the Kouachi brothers who just attacked Charlie Hebdo journalists,they were totally underpowered against terrorists with bulletproof vests and AKs,they couldn't have done much. Luckily,none were injured. They could have been stopped much earlier if police were properly equipped and protected.

View attachment 438005

-A local Gendarmerie patrol quickly rushed to the scene where the Kouachi brothers were later spotted. The pair were able to heavily injure one of the terrorist (in the neck) but had to retreat after coming under heavy fire because ,they weren't properly equipped to face terrorists with AKs.

View attachment 438007

They could have neutralized them much earlier if they were properly equipped and armed. But we had to wait the intervention of specialized units (GIGN) to neutralize them once for all.

-During the hostage taking at the Bataclan concert hall,a pair of first responding officers entered in the hall and were able to take out one of the terrorist. However they had to retreat as they weren't properly equipped (no heavy body armor,no helmet,no assault rifles) and outgunned by heavily armed terrorists.

Lot of similar stories against heavily armed criminals. Few days ago were heavy gunfire exchange between Gendarmes and criminals.

I know what you would think,obviously these are rare incidents and that is true. Officers are being given heavy protections (body armor,helmets,shields) and assault rifles (thing they never had). On apparence they don't look like infantry soldiers.

View attachment 438016

View attachment 438008

The equipment is locked in the patrol car trunk.

The proportion of interventions on which they'll use these equipments is very low. I myself wouldn't like to see them permanently heavily armed. However,they are now armed to deal with any situations.

@Kaptaan

This picture tells what exactly what I am asking for

@Sher Shah Awan @Awan68 @waz @Kaptaan @Vergennes @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah

That would be a dream to have every officers equipped like that.... !

View attachment 437936
View attachment 437934

In Pakistan almost every PoliceMan is carrying an AK 47 and a HandGun so they are already equipped like that but time to replace them with new better Assault Rifles and also handguns and add optics

 

[Signalian]

AK-47 clones and Type-56 are good enough. what does an M-4 offer more than these?

 

[DJ_Viper]

That is too expensive and not needed, even the yanks dont have it, they call swat when heavy fire support needed, rest of the time they make do with close quater weapons n handguns...

Are you sure about it? The M-4 title drew me to this thread. Just for your information, every police car in the US on patrol has a MS AR-15 high caliber weapon ready to unleash hell as needed (minus the traffic police on foot, in NYC, Chicago and a couple others as their goal is to maintain traffic during daytime so they have handguns, but backed up by a police car every few blocks).

The SWAT is only called when special weapons and tactics are needed, such as terrorism, hostage, active shooters, robbery in progress, building protection, etc, etc. The AR as its a common weapon used by all police, not just SWAT, SWAT has a lot more capability as its Police's special forces. Majority of the guys in SWAT team are ex-special forces from the US military.

Colonial era policing system in Pak, police personal must have a hand gun, baton n sprays, handcuff, torch etc. Moreover the present patrolling system must be shited to car patrolling with a couple of officers to a car. Divide the force up among sectors instead of making 7-8 men petrol a single area in a single pick up truck. Every car must have a single close quater weapon i.e shotgun to which one of the pair could shift to if needed. Street patrolling on foot must also be initiated in densely populated areas to traffic prone roads with an integrated radio system. Assault rifles must be the domain of a standard elite unit like swat which needs to be expanded to every district of a province, with APC's, assault support equipment, situational awareness equipment etc ,on call 24/7 at a moments notice to assault, hostage recovery, raids etc while the normal police officers provide support. Secondly a detective division must be enacted to pursue and follow up investigations backed up by forensics etc. Do all this and i promise we wont need FC and Army in our cities ever again, the army will be free to spend thier limited resources on more important task of national security...

This sounds like we are talking about a Police system in the UK or the US. Seems like you have visited / lived in these places. You can't have two people patrol's in Pakistan as the automatic weapons and other higher density weapons are freely available to criminals so there is no proper control. Anyone can fire an AK-47 on a two people car. Which is why you'd have more people in a vehicle that's usually open from the back to be deployed quickly, even if the front two policemen were taken out. That's a different threat scenario than the content of your post. But in general, M-4 is a revolution compared to what I've seen police carry in Pakistan and India in general.

I think the Pakistani police was already working on some sort of a SWAT team setup with the Turkish police. Not sure what's the status on that.

 

[Vapnope]

Why more M4 will be given to Faisalabad?

 

[Awan68]

Why more M4 will be given to Faisalabad?

jugaateen band karani hai faislabadion ke

 

[Babur The Uzbek Tiger]

Is this part of the aid packaged tied up by US Congress ?

 

[RescueRanger]

For all those wondering, this is a purchase order to equip: Security Division 1200 persons, Mujahid Squad 1,600 Flying Squad 850, Elite Force 975, Dolphin Force 25 persons and the remaining will be dished out to Police College Sihala / EPTS Lahore for training purposes.

Elite Police Force total strength in Punjab is 1200 this includes constables, head constables, ASI, SI, Inspector/SHO, DSP and an ASP. The Police Training College has a Commandant holding the rank of SSP with minimum 8 years service as SSP.

About 600 of these are trained in VVIP security and have completed the advanced "COBRA" course at Elite Training School on Baidian Road, these 600 unlike their "basic" elite police colleagues are assigned to guard VVIPs, yes 600 of the best trained and well equipped from 1200 are glorified body guards.

Of the total 26,330 strength of the Lahore police, 15,730 personnel are engaged in VVIP duties, protocol, escort and permanent security deployment.

Lahore police has 900 vehicles on the books, at least 200 are reserved for the VVIP duties 67 of these being up-armored B4/B5 and soft top vehicles which are used by VVIP security details on a daily basis! yes 67, pretty much all the armored vehicles are for VVIP Security!

Lahore Police have 1 Belljet Ranger 206L-3 on loan from Pakistan Rangers for use during counter terrorism operations:

Elite Police Force Punjab has had a variety of training inputs naming a few well known ones include CRT: Crisis Response Team(SWAT) from U.S Dept of Justice ATAP: Anti Terrorism Assistance Program, UK Police, Turkish Police, German Police / THW, Peoples Armed Police (China) and Republic of France.

Elite Police Force have the following:
Glock 17 / With or Without Roni kit
Tisas ZiGANA FC 9mm
Sig Sauer P226 (replaced by Glock/Zigana)
Beretta 92FS
SMG 47 (Norinco) / AK 47
12 Gauge Shotgun (used with launcher for C.S Gas / Beanbag)
Dragunov
Styer Aug ( replaced by MP5 )
MP 5 A3 / MP 5K PDW (POF)
G3 A2 (POF)
M4 with Iron sights, a handful are equipped with EOTech Holographic sights and Trijicon ACOG Sights.
Bushmaster Carbine
AR14
AR15 Counter Sniper Role (see attached image)*

*In Pakistan the only qualified snipers belong to Pakistan Army, police normally perform a purely counter sniper role.
======================================================================
For those advocating U.S/UK type double crewed police model, this really wont work for Pakistan. There is a notorious shortage of dispartiy when it comes to personnel to vehicle ratio in Pakistani police forces, so the trusty "DALA" or pick up is the best option for most police stations, its multi purpose, it can be used for short pursuits ( yes because average vehicle in Pakistan is 850-1300 CC, average scooter is 75/125 cc), it functions like a troop transport allowing you to negate the need for a dedicated carrier and can also be used to ferry traffic/crowd management equipment to scenes like traffic cones and rhino barriers as seen below:

Patrolling police exist in Pakistan but these are for isolated pockets where they carry out dedicated patrols such as Rescue 15 Islamabad : Falcon and Eagle Squads:

Lahore Rescue 15 Dolphin Force Police Response Unit:

Sindh Rescue 15 Muhafiz Force:

Comparing Pakistani police models to the U.K or the U.S is really not fair. Pakistani police are still very much in development, when we talk about policing what you need to know is that broadly speaking there are three types of policing:

Reactive: Law enforcement work is frequently reactive: Officers respond to calls for service, quell disturbances and make arrests. Today more than ever, law enforcement work is also proactive.

Proactive:
In proactive policing, law enforcement uses data and analyzes patterns to understand the nature of a problem. Officers devise strategies and tactics to prevent or mitigate future harm. They evaluate results and revise practices to improve policing. Departments may combine an array of data with street intelligence and crime analysis to produce better assessments about what might happen next if they take various actions.

Predictive Policing:
Predictive policing tries to harness the power of information, geospatial technologies and evidence-based intervention models to reduce crime and improve public safety. This two-pronged approach — applying advanced analytics to various data sets, in conjunction with intervention models — can move law enforcement from reacting to crimes into the realm of predicting what and where something is likely to happen and deploying resources accordingly.

The U.S DHS have programs like First Observer which train transport workers to spot signs of terrorism trafficking, suspicious movement and make detailed observations and pass these along to a TIP line where the data is analysed and vetted, it is then disseminated to the various DHS / LE Intelligence hubs.

In the U.K there is a national program called crime watch where members of the public can submit anonymous intelligence via web or by phone, again this is vetted and analysed and mapped. The U.K has been a pioneer in agile working and predictive policing:

======================================================================
TOO LONG DIDN'T READ: For policing in Pakistan to be effective it needs to be community driven, intelligence led, agile and cost effective. Sadly we are not there yet!

 

[Sucha Kuggu]

They should have some better weapons, some of most sincere guys had to buy their own coz ones provided by department are of no good. can pof proviod them some cheaper options.

 

[Arsalan]

jugaateen band karani hai faislabadion ke

It will take MORE than M4
@Chauvinist

On topic, this is waste of money and do not send out a strong message with those Type 56 and G-3 replacement programs and intention to export. Most likely this is just another way of earning some $$ by someone in a position of power.

 

[Amaa'n]

And rightly so Police is not health service provider they are their to fight criminals in fact in normal situations mostly Police see and fight more than Army. So Police should have Assault Rifles and Police is already using AK so just replace them with new better Assault Rifles. Also create Police SWAT units based on SSG and also units based on Army LCB.

Reforms I want to see are

every regular Policeman should be equipped 5.56 Caliber Assault Rifle with latest optics and good hand Guns and at least 4 extra magazines each. Also BP vest and should do a 6 week Anti Terror course at Pabbi secondly every Province needs to raise two Special Forces one SWAT which should be trained exactly like SSG for example in future if Punjab has 400000 PoliceMan, there should be at least 8000 SWAT among them, Than another Special Force unit should be like LCB of Army which should have the training which our Light Commandos of Army get. Finally IB and FIA and Special Branch of each province needs to be better trained and equipped specially they need to develop cyber wings and Forensic Labs.

@Vergennes

tell me what good that 5.56 is going to do?? what kind of Ops are carried out by Punjab Pulce??? what ranges, with what sort of weapons were the assailants were armed with?? just equip the patrol officers with Shotguns & handGuns.....w

For all those wondering, this is a purchase order to equip: Security Division 1200 persons, Mujahid Squad 1,600 Flying Squad 850, Elite Force 975, Dolphin Force 25 persons and the remaining will be dished out to Police College Sihala / EPTS Lahore for training purposes.

Elite Police Force total strength in Punjab is 1200 this includes constables, head constables, ASI, SI, Inspector/SHO, DSP and an ASP. The Police Training College has a Commandant holding the rank of SSP with minimum 8 years service as SSP.

About 600 of these are trained in VVIP security and have completed the advanced "COBRA" course at Elite Training School on Baidian Road, these 600 unlike their "basic" elite police colleagues are assigned to guard VVIPs, yes 600 of the best trained and well equipped from 1200 are glorified body guards.

Of the total 26,330 strength of the Lahore police, 15,730 personnel are engaged in VVIP duties, protocol, escort and permanent security deployment.

Lahore police has 900 vehicles on the books, at least 200 are reserved for the VVIP duties 67 of these being up-armored B4/B5 and soft top vehicles which are used by VVIP security details on a daily basis! yes 67, pretty much all the armored vehicles are for VVIP Security!

Lahore Police have 1 Belljet Ranger 206L-3 on loan from Pakistan Rangers for use during counter terrorism operations:

Elite Police Force Punjab has had a variety of training inputs naming a few well known ones include CRT: Crisis Response Team(SWAT) from U.S Dept of Justice ATAP: Anti Terrorism Assistance Program, UK Police, Turkish Police, German Police / THW, Peoples Armed Police (China) and Republic of France.

Elite Police Force have the following:
Glock 17 / With or Without Roni kit
Tisas ZiGANA FC 9mm
Sig Sauer P226 (replaced by Glock/Zigana)
Beretta 92FS
SMG 47 (Norinco) / AK 47
12 Gauge Shotgun (used with launcher for C.S Gas / Beanbag)
Dragunov
Styer Aug ( replaced by MP5 )
MP 5 A3 / MP 5K PDW (POF)
G3 A2 (POF)
M4 with Iron sights, a handful are equipped with EOTech Holographic sights and Trijicon ACOG Sights.
Bushmaster Carbine
AR14
AR15 Counter Sniper Role (see attached image)*

*In Pakistan the only qualified snipers belong to Pakistan Army, police normally perform a purely counter sniper role.
======================================================================
For those advocating U.S/UK type double crewed police model, this really wont work for Pakistan. There is a notorious shortage of dispartiy when it comes to personnel to vehicle ratio in Pakistani police forces, so the trusty "DALA" or pick up is the best option for most police stations, its multi purpose, it can be used for short pursuits ( yes because average vehicle in Pakistan is 850-1300 CC, average scooter is 75/125 cc), it functions like a troop transport allowing you to negate the need for a dedicated carrier and can also be used to ferry traffic/crowd management equipment to scenes like traffic cones and rhino barriers as seen below:

Patrolling police exist in Pakistan but these are for isolated pockets where they carry out dedicated patrols such as Rescue 15 Islamabad : Falcon and Eagle Squads:

Lahore Rescue 15 Dolphin Force Police Response Unit:

Sindh Rescue 15 Muhafiz Force:

Comparing Pakistani police models to the U.K or the U.S is really not fair. Pakistani police are still very much in development, when we talk about policing what you need to know is that broadly speaking there are three types of policing:

Reactive: Law enforcement work is frequently reactive: Officers respond to calls for service, quell disturbances and make arrests. Today more than ever, law enforcement work is also proactive.

Proactive:
In proactive policing, law enforcement uses data and analyzes patterns to understand the nature of a problem. Officers devise strategies and tactics to prevent or mitigate future harm. They evaluate results and revise practices to improve policing. Departments may combine an array of data with street intelligence and crime analysis to produce better assessments about what might happen next if they take various actions.

Predictive Policing:
Predictive policing tries to harness the power of information, geospatial technologies and evidence-based intervention models to reduce crime and improve public safety. This two-pronged approach — applying advanced analytics to various data sets, in conjunction with intervention models — can move law enforcement from reacting to crimes into the realm of predicting what and where something is likely to happen and deploying resources accordingly.

The U.S DHS have programs like First Observer which train transport workers to spot signs of terrorism trafficking, suspicious movement and make detailed observations and pass these along to a TIP line where the data is analysed and vetted, it is then disseminated to the various DHS / LE Intelligence hubs.

In the U.K there is a national program called crime watch where members of the public can submit anonymous intelligence via web or by phone, again this is vetted and analysed and mapped. The U.K has been a pioneer in agile working and predictive policing:

======================================================================
TOO LONG DIDN'T READ: For policing in Pakistan to be effective it needs to be community driven, intelligence led, agile and cost effective. Sadly we are not there yet!

Good to see you back on the scene again chief....hope you had a busy break?? still with Emergency service or parted your ways with them too

on the second note, i would like to add then we are in dire needs of police reforms, from ground to the top.....there are few steps being taken such as recent request put in by Interior Ministry to IGP to ensure that SHOs are of good physical fitness, that the Muharar are graduates .....induction of Graduates in CTD, Punjab Forensic Lab, National Forensic Lab, .....these are really some good developments, but it is still going to take long time to bare some fruit.....perhaps we would be dead by then?

 

[Zarvan]

tell me what good that 5.56 is going to do?? what kind of Ops are carried out by Punjab Pulce??? what ranges, with what sort of weapons were the assailants were armed with?? just equip the patrol officers with Shotguns & handGuns.....w

Good to see you back on the scene again chief....hope you had a busy break?? still with Emergency service or parted your ways with them too

on the second note, i would like to add then we are in dire needs of police reforms, from ground to the top.....there are few steps being taken such as recent request put in by Interior Ministry to IGP to ensure that SHOs are of good physical fitness, that the Muharar are graduates .....induction of Graduates in CTD, Punjab Forensic Lab, National Forensic Lab, .....these are really some good developments, but it is still going to take long time to bare some fruit.....perhaps we would be dead by then?

In Pakistan many of the robbers are equipped with fully automatic AK and other stuff as for 5.56 I am suggesting this caliber for regular PoliceMan because it is at least in Pakistan considered less lethal than 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51. Also our Policeman are already carrying AK so just replace them with new better assault Rifles with optics. As for Police Behavior even unarming them won't change it not even one bit until we have people like Shabaz on top. When children see soldiers fully loaded still they go and hug them if Police is honest same will happen to them even if they are fully equipped but if you people like Shabaz even unarmed PoliceMan will get galiyan. Lastly this is How I want our regular PoliceMan to be equipped like

@Vergennes

 

[RescueRanger]

In Pakistan many of the robbers are equipped with fully automatic AK and other stuff as for 5.56 I am suggesting this caliber for regular PoliceMan because it is at least in Pakistan considered less lethal than 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51. Also our Policeman are already carrying AK so just replace them with new better assault Rifles with optics. As for Police Behavior even unarming them won't change it not even one bit until we have people like Shabaz on top. When children see soldiers fully loaded still they go and hug them if Police is honest same will happen to them even if they are fully equipped but if you people like Shabaz even unarmed PoliceMan will get galiyan. Lastly this is How I want our regular PoliceMan to be equipped like

@Vergennes

You cannot compare Pakistani police to British Specialist Trained Firearms officers. Apples and Oranges!

 

[Verve]

just equip the patrol officers with Shotguns & handGuns.....

If only they are trained to handle a handgun to begin with! What I know and the experience I have had with some, majority seem utterly clueless!

But I agree with above recommendation. Plenty of very good handguns to choose from.

 

[Amaa'n]

In Pakistan many of the robbers are equipped with fully automatic AK and other stuff as for 5.56 I am suggesting this caliber for regular PoliceMan because it is at least in Pakistan considered less lethal than 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51. Also our Policeman are already carrying AK so just replace them with new better assault Rifles with optics. As for Police Behavior even unarming them won't change it not even one bit until we have people like Shabaz on top. When children see soldiers fully loaded still they go and hug them if Police is honest same will happen to them even if they are fully equipped but if you people like Shabaz even unarmed PoliceMan will get galiyan. Lastly this is How I want our regular PoliceMan to be equipped like

@Vergennes

Post #72 summed ut all good for you, those guys are specialist officers.....not patrol officers.......second thing, the more you equip them the more they are going to abuse the power........am not badmouthing police here, there are good officers in their too.....but majority of the lot is clueless on how to interact with general public......plus it.doesnt matter if theres an AK on the shoulder or a M4....it all comes down to discipline.....

If only they are trained to handle a handgun to begin with! What I know and the experience I have had with some, majority seem utterly clueless!

But I agree with above recommendation. Plenty of very good handguns to choose from.

Maskeen constable baba g is seeen dragging his feet in sandals let alone a handgun......

 

[Arsalan]

@RescueRanger @balixd well no point in wasting your energies. If @Zarvan sahib thinks our police should do frogman course and get submarines, NO AMOUNT OF LOGIC can make him change his mind.

Courses at Pabbi, LCB training, equipment for EVERY policeman, things that are not possible, not required, not feasible but who cares about logic anyway.

Theek ha bahi, bna do paratropper sary gulu button ko. Sanu ke tay twanu ke??