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PTI's Azadi March 14th August 2014 l Updates and debate.

PTI is trying another angle by trying to bring an election investigation into play without forcing NS to resign (which is an unrealistic demand at present). They know that if the investigation is independent and impartial then there is very significant chance of finding the elections were indeed full of fraud. And in that case a re-election would have to be called and NS and co have to step down anyway.
I think this could work for them since they are making it look like they are prepared to meet NS half way and they are using a legal method to get what they always wanted.

The ball is in NS's court now.

The thing is election investigation will not be removed from points and frankly it shouldnt. The problem PTI will face is that how to start an investigation that wont be influenced by N as without PM they are still in massive control. The two only parties that can do it is a foreign body or army. Imran has made no such demands relating to this. The next few days will reveal more in this. So far an election investigation under the rule of N is a useless demand as long as N is in such power.
 
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The thing is election investigation will not be removed from points and frankly it shouldnt. The problem PTI will face is that how to start an investigation that wont be influenced by N as without PM they are still in massive control. The two only parties that can do it is a foreign body or army. Imran has made no such demands relating to this. The next few days will reveal more in this. So far an election investigation under the rule of N is a useless demand as long as N is in such power.

But in many of his speeches he showed faith in Supreme Court. If he has faith in court then the demand of resignation for 30 days doesn't make any sense.
 
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But in many of his speeches he showed faith in Supreme Court. If he has faith in court then the demand of resignation for 30 days doesn't make any sense.

Yes but we have multiple times in his very speeches have seen him say that an independent investigation cannot take place as long as N is in power even when Nawaz agreed to create the Sc commission which had 4 Supreme court judges i believe and the CJ. He right now currently has no faith in them as he believes they are under the influence of NS especially after the Case that came against both qadri and him due to dharna in SC.

We saw the same when he placed massive trust in CJ iftikhar and fakhru before elections and yet after them he maligned them to no end never once claiming that he agreed and supported both.
 
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Yes but we have multiple times in his very speeches have seen him say that an independent investigation cannot take place as long as N is in power even when Nawaz agreed to create the Sc commission which had 4 Supreme court judges i believe and the CJ. He right now currently has no faith in them as he believes they are under the influence of NS especially after the Case that came against both qadri and him due to dharna in SC.

We saw the same when he placed massive trust in CJ iftikhar and fakhru before elections and yet after them he maligned them to no end never once claiming that he agreed and supported both.

He has made a lot of contradictory statements. I fail to understand what assures IK that a PM other than NS won't influence the commission constituted to investigate into the rigging, given a new PM will be from PMLN! You are ready to negotiate means you have withdrawn your demand number 1 & 2, now whether it's NS or anybody else the outcome would remain the same if influence is feared.

The two only parties that can do it is a foreign body or army.

That's interesting.
 
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A number of assumptions here I see.

1. Its not so much that the system fails to deliver as its that people and institutions fail in patience.

2. Our obligations to families and individual institutions matter more to us than the rights and interests of Pakistan.

3. Nobody lives in a vacuum. The problems of governance have an effect on us all.

4. Your observation about democracy somehow being applied in perfection while transitioning between absolute power (kingship) to people power fails when one looks at Latin America. All those countries struggled with dictatorships and army rule. Not one of them is a dictatorship now. They went through painful transition, and we would be deluding ourselves if we think that it should not be painful for us. We are not special in anyway that laws of social and political evolution should not apply to us. There is absolutely no substitute to determined effort to make it work.

NS of yester-years was an immature dramabaz and hungama politician. What happened? He is still the same person with the same failings, but seems to have learned some lessons about hungama-bazi and instability of confrontation. Do notice the glacial calm with which he has played his hand in this crisis. Had he not matured, we would have seen blood on the streets and a military wrap-up.

BB and NS had both learned that their mutual enmity brought so much instability that petty politicians black-mailed them both. That is why they agreed on constitutional amendments that limited the ability of MNAs and MPAs to blackmail leaders. They decided not to sacrifice system to open the door to army rule.

IK does not realize all this. He has not experienced any of it. He knows, but willfully ignores. This is what we have seen so far in this whole drama.

I have absolutely no problem with dynastic rule, as long as we are able to go through at least 2-3 more regular election cycles. Once a semblance of democratic institutional framework is established, we can then take a stand. The system would be stable enough and provide enough choices for us to go through another shake-up and reforms.

First things first! We need to establish whether we should resign ourselves to an unstable mix-up and successive cycles of inept civilian rule followed by martial law. If this fills you with abhorrence, like it fills me, then you have to agree to give an imperfect democracy a chance and put aside the efficiency argument and instead back the legitimacy argument. Crying about efficiency (corruption, merit, development) to sacrifice legitimacy is the direct route to Martial Law. And this always comes back to bite us in the rear.

We've lost half the country because our parents and grand parents did not understand the value of 1956 constitution. Pakistan broke the day that constitution was abrogated. The efficiency gains made until 1971 did not save us from the inevitable collapse. With 1973 constitution, so far it is a similar story. Until and unless we back the legitimacy or our constitution, efficiency gains will remain temporary and ephemeral.

Does anyone care what people in Baluchistan, Sindh, Southern Punjab, and Gilgit are thinking about a largely Punjabi & Pashtun drama in Islamabad? Would they not resent all this? Does GT Rd get to decide fate of Paksitan's politics? With all this hungama, we are already alienating the South and the North. The very same thing happened in 1965 too. Our Bengali brothers felt cheated by decision makers who resided in West Pakistan and acted as West Pakistanis, rather than United Pakistanis.

I can not be any more clear about this. I have given examples, laid out arguments, and referenced History. If still someone does NOT 'get' it, what can one do?

the historical example of latin america which you are forwarding is again based on the assumptions that somehow people decided to give democracy a chance rather than democrats learning a lesson that they must deliver for democracy to be sustainable.

my contention is not with the argument that the democratic system should be given a chance. In principle, i dont even agree with this notion of giving chance for the system to take root. My whole argument is that the system must prove itself to be a better alternative for it to take root and become sustainable. It is not for academics to choose a system for the people but for the people to choose a system based on its relative (to alternates) performance. And since i am talking about the relative performance, don't see me as basing my argument on perfect service delivery.

And since the primary question which you and i are looking at is different, our response to dynastic democracy is also poles apart. You see it as not problematic given democracy keeps functioning whereas i see it as a key impediment in the way of democratic functioning. The concentration of power and wealth under dynastic democracy will not let democracy take root and become a feasible alternative for the people.

regards. nice talking to you!
 
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Now i doubt woman will go back because Imran Khan have offered to marry one of them after Azadi. :laugh:
I thought you were joking but here we go lol

[video]

The rit of government is completely shattered. Gov have accepted all demands of pti beside pm resignation.

Wazir e azam ka resignation le kar rhoon ga warna mein marna pasand karoon ga . Imran khan
 
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I am coming down to Pak land early next week after a long time. Everything is almost finalized. MESSAGE TO IK: Please don't back down. As I said earlier, God has created a massive pump. Wait for few more days and you will see what you have never seen. Big bosses have started negotiations. Same bosses that have direct access to God. Hold tight!!!! 2.5 million people pump on its way. Please engage people more and make the message personal. Invite people on the stage when you are there. Let's make it our movement. Personalize the message. Get your tigers to get video clips of people being abused by the police, feudals, burykats and so on and show them on the screen during the dharna. Show them in ISB and perhaps Lahore, Karachi, Quetta and Peshawar. Play with the vibes....Pull the strings of the people.
 
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I am coming down to Pak land early next week after a long time. Everything is almost finalized. MESSAGE TO IK: Please don't back down. As I said earlier, God has created a massive pump. Wait for few more days and you will see what you have never seen. Big bosses have started negotiations. Same bosses that have direct access to God. Hold tight!!!! 2.5 million people pump on its way. Please engage people more and make the message personal. Invite people on the stage when you are there. Let's make it our movement. Personalize the message. Get your tigers to get video clips of people being abused by the police, feudals, burykats and so on and show them on the screen during the dharna. Show them in ISB and perhaps Lahore, Karachi, Quetta and Peshawar. Play with the vibes....Pull the strings of the people.
The hell, another dark knight in making!
 
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IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO
IK- One more thing: When I say videos - I don't mean those news channel videos. You gotta put emotional background music, frames sequence of the video etc should be highly emotional and personal. Think about this as if you were marketing a product combined with appealing for a massive natural catastrophe. Empower people. They should feel they are coming to ISB for themselves. I am a very firm
believer of empowerment. Change the narrative to people being empowered and coming to ISB for their own good. Personalize the message.
 
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IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO
IK- One more thing: When I say videos - I don't mean those new channels videos. You gotta put emotional background music, frames sequence of the video etc should be highly emotional and personal. Think about this as if you were marketing a product combined with appealing for a massive natural catastrophe. Empower people. They should feel they are coming to ISB for themselves. I am a very firm
believer of empowerment. Change the narrative to people being empowered and coming to ISB for their own good. Personalize the message.
Kid you are up against a evil empire , do you understand that?
We are at war?

IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO
IK- One more thing: When I say videos - I don't mean those news channel videos. You gotta put emotional background music, frames sequence of the video etc should be highly emotional and personal. Think about this as if you were marketing a product combined with appealing for a massive natural catastrophe. Empower people. They should feel they are coming to ISB for themselves. I am a very firm
believer of empowerment. Change the narrative to people being empowered and coming to ISB for their own good. Personalize the message.
Better get connected with the force on ground, help them out ?
Can contact @Leader @Jazzbot !
 
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