Proof of Indian Involvement in Waziristan found: Army

[Chanakyaa]

The problem is for Indians a toothpast made in Pakistan is proof but weapons made in India is not.

Now as you said if the toothpast can be a proof against Pakistan then a weapon should be stronger candidate for proof against India


And if not then we all should accept that India was doing a psy-ops against Pakistan for last many decades and now Pakistanis have started learning the art too.

Mere dost Hillary Aunty Aai aur Chali gayi...
Tab kya Malik uncle So rahe the ya ubke jane ka intazar kar rahe the??
Taki Gubbara Phutne to Awaaz na ho?

India may not be inncocent. But dont produce childish proof.
A live Man ( kasab ) and his existance is denied and you expect some "photoshoped" weapons to b taken as proof ??

Yes, RAW is there, but do someting credible against, dont make your citizens "feel good" on TVs.. Show it to the world.. let World Ask India.. Then Someting may happen.. provided you really want to.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Could be for variety of information. Governments do not depend on open source internet forums for information. Now since you have insinuated that Indian cultivated assets are means to help the BLF to 'kill school principals and teachers to intimidate the schools from playing the Pakistani anthem', how about you provide some proof to substantiate that.

I didn't insinuate India was funneling funds to BLF operatives killing school teachers and principals to stop the Pakistani national anthem from playing, I suggested that if they were, then they would not be bragging about it to a reporter.

However, I am still uncertain how 'pumping money into Baluchistan' (not 'into Pakistan' mind you, which is what one would typically hear when referring to recruiting traditional sources within another nation) can be taken as anything other than 'pumping money into subversive activities. The use of specificity when referring to Baluchistan in that context is interesting. I mean, does that mean that the Indians are not 'pumping money into' NWFP, Punjab (which would be logical given the concentration of strategic and military assets in that region)?

And what about the memories of your failures. I guess thats all right as long as we can shift the blame.

Our political failures are ours - they do not justify support for terrorism and subversive elements by India.

And yet the world thinks Pakistan is the 'migraine'. Anyway, chillax. I am not going to ask for proof once again. It has become a joke already.

Don't worry - we have been laughing for a long time over the demands for evidence from the Indian side over Mumbai.

Now when you can find a credible source suggesting that Pakistani officials were talking about Pakistan 'pumping money to Ajmal Kasab' or 'pumping money to the LeT' after the parliament attacks, or 'pumping money into the Haqqani network' post 2001, let us know.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I want to requote my post earlier, since some of you believe that I have argued there is direct evidence indicating Indian involvement, I have not.

Please read more carefully, I have argued that there is enough evidence and enough reports that the possibility of Indian involvement in subversion in Pakistan cannot be ignored. And I have pointed out that the mere existence of weapons and supplies of Indian origin does not establish Indian complicity by itself.

BTW,

Here is an excellent post by a gentleman named Ali on LWJ on the subject of why the possibility of Indian support for select Taliban and Baluch groups cannot be ignored:

===============

Ali:

The Pakistani government explains the Malakand Accord as a gambit required to demonstrate the viciousness of the TTP to the public, and finally swing public opinion against them. This explanation certainly fits the facts, since polls in Pakistan had previously shown people to support peace talks as an instrument, their previous failures not withstanding.

Cutting peace deals with Bahadur and Nazir is frustrating to watch, but these groups (and Haqqani) aren't directly threatening Pakistan right now, and it appears the army is trying to prioritize who it takes on given the paltry number of personnel it is recommitting away from the Indian border.

The remark about Baitullah being a patriot is ridiculous, no question. It is also true that the Army has been populated significantly by officers following the Deobandi sect, and who have a history of supporting the Taliban. Remember that the Taliban were openly allies of Pakistan pre 9/11. It seems to me there still significant numbers of such zealots in the army. However, public sentiment in Pakistan has swung massively against the Taliban, as it should given the carnage this month.

However, there's a significant amount of testimony outside Pakistan backing the claim about Indian involvement.

Arun Shourie, the Indian parlimentarian, had this to say in his speech to the Lok Sabha after 26/11 (http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?239206):

"Eleven, the time when large armies could be sent across the borders -- [it is said a lot that we should attack Pakistan]-- that time has gone. The time when large bodies of armies could be sent across the borders has gone. There are no training camps to bomb. But Pakistan gives us the clue what we should be doing to make them register a cause, that is, look at the violence in Kashmir in the last year-and-a-half that has gone down because Pakistan has been preoccupied in its own problems. So, keep it preoccupied in its own problems in Baluchistan, in Gilgit Baltistan, in ***."

Vikram Sood, the former R&AW chief, had much the same to say (http://soodvikram.blogspot.com/2009_01_05_archive.htm)

As did B Raman (http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?239124):

A divided Pakistan, a bleeding Pakistan, a Pakistan ever on the verge of collapse without actually collapsing--that should be our objective till it stops using terrorism against India.

The opinion expressed by these Indians is basically that the conventional projection of force is denied by Pakistan's nukes, so unconventional force should be used.

There's a great article here (www.outlookindia.com | To Understand Pakistan, 1947 Is The Wrong Lens) explaining why Pakistan is so paranoid about India. In two words: Bangladesh, 1971

The evidence I've given you so far is sabre-rattling by mainstream Indian politicians and officials. There are also statements by Americans.

There's the heatedly disputed article in Foreign Policy:
Can the intel community defuse India-Pakistan tensions? | The Cable

'While the U.S. media has frequently reported on Pakistani ties to jihadi elements launching attacks in Afghanistan, it has less often mentioned that India supports insurgent forces attacking Pakistan, the former intelligence official said. "The Indians are up to their necks in supporting the Taliban against the Pakistani government in Afghanistan and Pakistan," the former intelligence official who served in both countries said. "The same anti-Pakistani forces in Afghanistan also shooting at American soldiers are getting support from India. India should close its diplomatic establishments in Afghanistan and get the Christ out of there."'

The problem with this claim is that it, and its rebuttals, were both by anonymous sources. Not so Christina Fair of RAND (Roundtables | Foreign Affairs

"I think it would be a mistake to completely disregard Pakistan's regional perceptions due to doubts about Indian competence in executing covert operations. That misses the point entirely. And I think it is unfair to dismiss the notion that Pakistan's apprehensions about Afghanistan stem in part from its security competition with India. Having visited the Indian mission in Zahedan, Iran, I can assure you they are not issuing visas as the main activity! Moreover, India has run operations from its mission in Mazar (through which it supported the Northern Alliance) and is likely doing so from the other consulates it has reopened in Jalalabad and Qandahar along the border. Indian officials have told me privately that they are pumping money into Baluchistan."

Ultimately, Pakistan has enough problems to fix of its own, and it is always going to come out with a black eye if it takes India on given the size discrepancy. It needs to aggressively pursue the Mumbai terrorists and pursue peace. However, India's stated intent and actions cannot be swept under the rug.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agno, this isn't what she's saying. She's primarily referring to HUMINT, which isn't synonymous with promotion of terrorism or armed subversive conflict.

HUMINT of course is the most basic and standard approach by any government's intelligence agency. In the greater scheme of things, the Gulf states and other common migratory grounds for South Asians such as Singapore and Malaysia probably still serve as the primary source of human intelligence for most intel agencies (based on the sheer variety in the sample size). Balochis and Sindhis have been courted by Indian intelligence agencies for quite some time, but there has been no direct assistance given to either one of the separatist movements even at the height of Pakistan's turmoil of the early 70s. Similarly Pakistan too I'm sure has sizable human intelligence assets all over India, they aren't all terrorists by default.

And to be honest Fair does clarify her position... (mostly because she has been harangued by belligerent Indians and Pakistanis at every lecture and symposium she has participated in since the round table discussion where all of this started.

Also, its not as if the state dept and the pentagon haven't looked into this issue. If there was truly something substantial in regards to India supporting an armed insurgency it wouldn't have gone unmentioned.

Please see my response Toxic on this.

CF isn't just 'clarifying' she is changing her original statement. She was pretty clear in the original that an "Indian officials have told me they are pumping money into Baluchistan" - she may interpret that as 'cultivating assets', but the original quote she attributed to Indian officials does not convey that impression. Why would Indian officials specify Baluchistan out of all of Pakistan, given that most of Pakistan's strategic assets are not even in Baluchistan?

On the issue of the US taking the issue up with India - as I pointed out to EIG earlier, the US has steadfastly refused to condemn, or allow any condemnation of Israel even when Israel has been blatantly and willfully violating international law and committing war crimes, because to do so goes against its perceived national interests.

Given the growing US-India strategic partnership and the hundreds of billions in military and economic contracts, and given the rather duplicitous precedent the US has set with sheltering Israel, I do not think that even MMS accepting guilt in front of the US president would result in a public condemnation from the US.

The most Pakistan can hope for is for the US to privately put pressure on India - sorry, but the US has zero credibility in this scenario now.

 

[Goodperson]

Again, just because other nations use/manufacture 82 mm mortars does not on its own imply that these are not Indian - there are usually markings indicating origin.

I would continue to explore the point you made about India not manufacturing 82 mm mortar ammo.

Hope someone finds India does not use or manufacture 82 mm Mortars otherwise Should'nt this be called as Planting blunder ?

 

[PostColonial]

Hmmm. So Americans can't be trusted, Indians can't be trusted.

I guess then the only credible source of info remains Mr. Rehman Malik.

Wonderful.

 

[toxic_pus]

I didn't insinuate India was funneling funds to BLF operatives killing school teachers and principals to stop the Pakistani national anthem from playing, I suggested that if they were, then they would not be bragging about it to a reporter.

When you wrote that, you knew how it will be construed. However, since you have clarified, I am good.

However, I am still uncertain how 'pumping money into Baluchistan' (not 'into Pakistan' mind you, which is what one would typically hear when referring to recruiting traditional sources within another nation) can be taken as anything other than 'pumping money into subversive activities. The use of specificity when referring to Baluchistan in that context is interesting. I mean, does that mean that the Indians are not 'pumping money into' NWFP, Punjab (which would be logical given the concentration of strategic and military assets in that region)?

We do not know the context, in which those words were spoken. All we know is that something to the effect, as narrated by CF, was said by the Indian diplomats. Nothing more. Another interesting thing is that the Indian diplomats were not hiding the fact that they are cultivating assets in Baluchistan. If it was for any mischievous purpose, one would have expected not to even drop a hint. Particularly to an American.

As a Pakistani, you are entitled to be skeptical. Perhaps even I would have been clutching at straws, or perhaps trying to squeeze a glass of milk from a bull, if I were one.

Our political failures are ours - they do not justify support for terrorism and subversive elements by India.

Yes your political failures are yours and only yours. I was referring to your failure to contain your 'political failures' within your boundaries. I hope you are not going to disown that failure.

Don't worry - we have been laughing for a long time over the demands for evidence from the Indian side over Mumbai.

You do know, what the diagnosis usually is when one laughs alone.

Now when you can find a credible source suggesting that Pakistani officials were talking about Pakistan 'pumping money to Ajmal Kasab' or 'pumping money to the LeT' after the parliament attacks, or 'pumping money into the Haqqani network' post 2001, let us know.

Ajmal 'Amar Singh' Kasab would be a good source for Mumbai carnage, one would assume. Apparently not.

 

[amjad_vantage]

The cross border involvement by Indian intelligence agencies aka terrorist organization RAW has not been a hidden story any more since both Pakistan as well as NATO forces operating in Afghanistan have shown concerns over it. According to much hyped report by General Stanley McChrystal,

Indian political and economic influence is increasing in Afghanistan, including significant development efforts and financial investment. In addition, the current Afghan government is perceived by Islamabad to be pro-Indian. While Indian activities largely benefit the Afghan people, increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan is likely to exacerbate regional tensions and encourage Pakistani countermeasures in Afghanistan or India.

If that was not enough, the Government of Pakistan has found huge cache of Indian arms, Medicines and other propaganda material in the hideouts of terrorists in South Waziristan. The evidence has been documented and proofs handed over to Foreign Office to be presented at relevant forums.




According to Daily Dawn:

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has found concrete evidence of India’s involvement in militancy in South Waziristan and decided to take up the matter with New Delhi.

This was disclosed by Information Minster Qamar Zaman Kaira and military spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas at a press briefing on the progress of operation Rah-e-Nijat here on Monday. It was the first time in recent times that Pakistan had pointed fingers at India from a forum having representation of political and military leadership.

Mr Kaira said although it had been decided to raise the issue with India, Pakistan would not deviate from the peace process.

Gen Abbas said a huge quantity of Indian arms and ammunition, literature, medical equipment and medicines had been recovered from Sherawangi area, near Kaniguram. He said the Foreign Office had been informed and the matter would be taken up with the Indian authorities through diplomatic channels.


India and Afghan Government has also been blamed for sponsoring the Baloch terrorists hiding in Afghanistan and using it as a safe base to launch attacks inside Afghanistan. The very fact that Americans are very much aware of these concerns of Pakistan but have preferred to stay mum shows that they are using it as a bargaining chip against Pakistan. That bring me to a conclusion that Americans are not even sincere in their own stated objectves for the region. Destabilizing Pakistan means destabilizing the whole region. If Pakistan military decided to take off its hands from the War on Terror, the Talibans will not only take over Afghanistan but will also set their eyes on Indian in general and Kashmir in particular. Even the Chechen conflict will reemerge and the problems in Central Asian states will resurface. The Americans and Indians should realize that Pakistan is the last buffer in the fight against terrorists operating in the region.

Indians are only interested in their own strategic gains but it is the duty of Americans and NATO forces to align their strategic goals and keep Indian activities in check in Afghanistan before they find themselves stuck deep in a proxy war between India and Pakistan waged on the soil of Afghanistan. That would be a disaster for all the important players so its time we mend our ways before it gets too late. By Pro-Pakistan

India Terrorism: Militants held in Karachi with Indian made explosives


Pakistani CID police on Wednesday arrested five members of a banned militant outfit and seized about 150 kilos of explosives of Indian origin, automatic rifles and suicide vests from them.



A senior CID police official said that the five suspected militants, all residents of Karachi, were arrested in different parts of Orangi Town and they were planning terror attacks on key installations in the city.

‘Initial investigations suggest that they all are militants and associated with the banned Lashkar-i-Jhangvi. They have a history of police arrests on different charges,’ said CID SP Fayyaz Khan.

‘We have seized two suicide jackets, two sacks containing 150 kilos of explosives made by an Indian company and five Kalashnikov rifles with bullets and magazines.’

The SP was speaking to reporters at the DJ College Ground on Dr Ziauddin Ahmed Road where the seized explosives and suicide jackets were being defused by the officials of the Bomb Disposal Squad.

The arrested suspects, aged between 25 and 26 years, are identified as Nasir alias Saifullah, Shakeel Barmi, Atif alias Chooha, Wasim alias Baroodi and Afzal alias Rickshaw Wala.

The official was reluctant to share details of the police action which led to the arrest of the suspected militants.

However, he said the CID police were looking for four of their accomplices – Rasheed Swati, Arif alias Chota, Danish and Naseer – who were still at large.

The CID police claimed that the arrested suspects were planning to target government buildings and prominent individuals. ‘Their main targets were government buildings and hotels,’ said SP Khan.

‘The initial investigations revealed that the suspects were also planning to target prominent personalities including politicians and government members.’

The seized explosives were put on display at the DJ College Ground. The inscription on the two white plastic bags containing about 100 kilos of potassium chlorate, read: ‘Manufactured by Vaigai Industries, Karaikal, India’.

The remaining 50 kilos of explosive material was packed in two small aluminum boxes.

 

[Beskar]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has found concrete evidence of India’s involvement in militancy in South Waziristan and decided to take up the matter with New Delhi.

It's about time! For the last couple of days I've been hearing this a lot on the local news channels. They're claiming that Pakistan Army's found more than enough evidence to prove Indian involvement in the region. Without wasting any more time in the name of "Diplomacy" we should parade the UN representatives around this evidence asap.

 

[Nemesis]

Yes, let us all see this so called evidence and what the world makes of it. Forgive me for being skeptical though, the GOP is pretty low on the credibility scale.

Indian political and economic influence is increasing in Afghanistan, including significant development efforts and financial investment. In addition, the current Afghan government is perceived by Islamabad to be pro-Indian. While Indian activities largely benefit the Afghan people, increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan is likely to exacerbate regional tensions and encourage Pakistani countermeasures in Afghanistan or India.

Yeah this is America admitting India's cross border terrorism from consulates. Honestly, please learn to read.

 

[toxic_pus]

It appears, that POF manufactures 81 mm shells, which look very much like the 'Indian Ammo'.



Link to the original image

 

[Energon]

However, I am still uncertain how 'pumping money into Baluchistan' (not 'into Pakistan' mind you, which is what one would typically hear when referring to recruiting traditional sources within another nation) can be taken as anything other than 'pumping money into subversive activities.

CF isn't just 'clarifying' she is changing her original statement. She was pretty clear in the original that an "Indian officials have told me they are pumping money into Baluchistan" - she may interpret that as 'cultivating assets', but the original quote she attributed to Indian officials does not convey that impression.

AM, I'm not sure I understand your argument; rather, I'm not sure there is one to be made. You are speculating about the 'true meaning' of an open ended statement made by someone else (an inherently dubious undertaking). Except now she has gone ahead and actually expounded upon the meaning of that open ended sentence. What you or I or anyone else thinks she meant is of no consequence; her interpretation is the only one that matters. She hasn't changed her original statement, she has clarified it. Even if she is backtracking we will never know.

This is an open and shut case. She gets the final word.

On the issue of the US taking the issue up with India - as I pointed out to EIG earlier, the US has steadfastly refused to condemn, or allow any condemnation of Israel even when Israel has been blatantly and willfully violating international law and committing war crimes, because to do so goes against its perceived national interests.

Given the growing US-India strategic partnership and the hundreds of billions in military and economic contracts, and given the rather duplicitous precedent the US has set with sheltering Israel, I do not think that even MMS accepting guilt in front of the US president would result in a public condemnation from the US.

The most Pakistan can hope for is for the US to privately put pressure on India - sorry, but the US has zero credibility in this scenario now.

US's relationship with Israel has nothing to do with India, they are inherently dissimilar, as is the context. To conclude that just because the US does something with Israel it must hold true for India is pure conjecture and slides dangerously along the slippery slope of the US-hindu-zionist conspiracy against Pakistan. There is no evidence whatsoever that the US' relationship with India is the way you portray it.

 

[Bullhead]

I have refuted all the claims with relevant proofs in some of my posts. But since no one has patience to read through all the thread. Let me help you guys by posting the entire information once again.






This is a fake image... Created with help of Rudimentary MS Paint.

Look closely "Indian Ammo" is Pasted onto original tag in the picture with shoddy work Visible along the bolder Alphabets.

By The way ...Do you know that "88 MM HE" is also used By American army..

Here is a report talking about a test done on the same rocket: 82MM HE Cartridge, HE, Model 30, with PD Fuze, Model MP-1B, 3 Per Box United Nations (UN) Performance Oriented Packaging (POP) Test - Storming Media


And Look at the top Right in the photograph...the Ammo lying there

Chinese Markings...........Hmmmm

So this is how they write Made in India in Chinese.


More Info...

Indian OFB makes only 81mm Mortar shells.


82 mm is Russian/PRC mortar caliber to prevent use by forces with 81mm mortars.


Indian Ordnance Factories: Ammunition, Explosives, Propellants & Chemicals



Here is a pic of mortar equipments manufactured By OFB India fto be used by Indian Army..

And here is a piece of old news that talks about Pakistan army Handing over 82 MM mortars to Afghan Army....wonder if that has found its way back to Pakistan.

Pakistan Pledges Weapons for Afghan Army


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan's army gave the Afghan government submachine guns, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades on Sunday to help build its fledgling national army.


Pakistan handed over 500 submachine guns, 180 82mm mortars, rockets and 50,000 rounds of ammunition in a ceremony at a Pakistani air force base near the capital, an armed forces statement said.


"Afghanistan badly needs this kind of assistance, which will enable Afghanistan to run their own matters, and we appreciate it," said Rehmahulla Musaghazi, an official at the Afghan Embassy in Islamabad, who was on hand at Chaklala Air Force Base to accept the weapons.


The Pakistani army also said it would train Afghan military personnel at bases in Pakistan, but did not say when this would begin.


The Afghan National Army now has about 1,800 soldiers, but President Hamid Karzai has said he hopes it will eventually grow to 70,000. Creation of the army is seen as vital to the central government's ability to extend its control nationwide.


Pakistan was a supporter of the hard-line Taliban government, but it switched sides and backed a U.S. military operation to oust the regime after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.


Pakistan pledges weapons, ammunition to help Afghan national army | Article from AP Worldstream | HighBeam Research


Here is a list of Infantry Mortars being Manufactured and used by different countries.

List of infantry mortars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India manufactures only 81 mm E1 Mortars.

India army uses 81mm E1 Mortar.



And as one of the posters pointed out...
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...ment-waziristan-found-army-11.html#post537091

 

[Naradmuni]

It's about time! For the last couple of days I've been hearing this a lot on the local news channels. They're claiming that Pakistan Army's found more than enough evidence to prove Indian involvement in the region. Without wasting any more time in the name of "Diplomacy" we should parade the UN representatives around this evidence asap.

This really doesent work !! You know what India had been trying since 2 decades to convince UN about pakistans involvement in destabilizing its internal situations, without any luck.

These UN guys are pretty useless. Hadn't it been for 9/11 and US taking islamic terrorism personally, and also the change in regional US strategy to make friends with India, that India would have been still whining and complaining the same old story even today.

Right now there is simply no sympathy towards pakistan in the international community and its War on terror is been seen only as an attempt to clean the fi!th it created by itself to fulfill its short sighted objectives.

What I see is, you would be finding more and more evidences like this in future but India and world (read US, UN) would simply not entertain it as it had been in case of India for 2 decades.

 

[StingRoy]

Politicians will never come out of this blame game ever... to a certain extent I am starting to feel it is true on both sides... Making a hot statement like this of course increases their popularity and unites the nation on a common ground...
Now you guys are trying to prove that India is sponsoring the Taliban, Al Qaeda, LeT and what not.. to come and attack India... exercise your brains please before blindly following your so called leaders...