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Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

Mr Deino, I need to ask a very basic question regarding stealth aircraft engineering.

Question: Say you have an stealth aircraft flying. Its structures deforms due to aerodynamic and inertial forces. You want to calculate the scattered radar field around it. How would you set up this problem in the language of mathematics. What would you call such problem mathematically.

Note the answer is just one sentence. A small sentence if one knows what they are talking about.

I am asking this question because a "pseudo expert" who constantly looks at my country Pakistan and the capabilities of Pakistani engineers and PAF with a condescending attitude and is excessively too sure of himself, will not be able to answer it by "googling it extensively".

You can't find answers to such questions from google. Even to ask them, you have to have some expertise yourself.

This question is that specific so that I can google too and make sure that answer given to me is NOT from a website or a popular book on "the magical capabilities of F-22 (or something like that)".

To answer this question you have to know the basics yourself, just the "VERY BASICS".

Am I right?

So what's the answer. Even an average expert with "very basic knowledge of advanced stealth aircraft engineering" should be able to answer it readily. Since you are way above such an expert. You are such an expert, you can even assess Pakistani capabilities without knowing or meeting any one of us or visiting PAF advanced research facilities. You would have no problem.....right?

I will give my ONLY one sentence answer and then will NOT further engage you.

I am really busy and have already wasted too much time today on irrelevant things and simply can't spend anymore time.

But one day when I will have time, I will write about the design and engineering capabilities of Pakistan as far as stealth aircraft are concerned. Cause I know they are vastly superior than people like you with their stereotypical image of Pakistan can ever imagine.

If you answered it correctly which seems not possible, I will then ask even harder question again that "ungoogle-able" question related to stealth aircraft, whose answer you won't find in the text books either but assumes high degree of expertise in multi-disciplinary stealth aircraft engineering. You can refuse to answer it off course. My aim is not to insult you here. But to let others know that when it comes to Pakistan project azm, they should not listen to your opinions and maintain a positive attitude towards our 5th generation aircraft program and what Pakistan can do. Pakistan is far more capable than you can ever perceive. So please don't take it personally and nor google it for too long. I would know, trust me.

My brother, you are asking a school teacher technical questions on aero engineering. He has zero knowledge about these things.
 
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At least not as stupid as claiming the JF-17 Batch 3 would use a non-existent Italian engine.
No one made such a claim. Someone did claim there was Italian input on the program. Impossible to prove or disprove. But to understand this you need a mind that understands nuances.

Don't worry i will soon be going on a long project assignment ans will not be available on the forum, then you can prance around claiming Pak cannot do x y and z in peace.
 
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wtf did i waste my time in reading here
be realistic and pull your head out.
its not a personal bashing thread.
but on a suject of an ambition.

I pray that people leading it are not as petty as ordinary Pakistanis who waste time in grudges rather than the task at hand.

Its not a personal grudge. You judgement of who I am or not is meaningless to me. Its your opinion not my reality.

What it got to do with being petty.

Its his stereotypical characterization of Pakistan airforce that prompted my response. NOT my personal grudge. Trust me he has no idea how advanced PAF has become.

remaining post deleted
 
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May be PAF is thinking of VTOL, because it's a derivative of china carrier based 5th gen proposed fighter. For me That's the best case scenario for this.
Interesting, first I heard this I totally dismissed it. But I heard this first from @Signalian . at that time I totally dismissed it as even remote possibility. Forgive me my brother @Signalian . persistent rumors mean smoke. Smoke means fire is possible.
Its not a personal grudge. You judgement of who I am or not is meaningless to me. Its your opinion not my reality.

What it got to do with being petty.

This man Deino constantly declares what Pakistan can do or cannot do. Insults everyone. Belittles everyone. Makes fun of PAF as bunch of fools who don't know what they are doing.

Its his stereotypical characterization of Pakistan airforce that prompted my response. NOT my personal grudge. Trust me he has no idea how advanced PAF has become.

It was me who in this forum had a fight with a brother name mutakalim (I think that is his name) when several years ago I had a fight with him.

In that post (using a cousin's account here, who no longer comes here) I declared that pakistan can make 5th generation stealth aircraft and going to do it soon.

Mutakalim responded by saying:

We have now have people in Pakistan who believe in "vedic technology" of Pakistan like india.

(since at that time it was considered impossible for Pakistan to even think of making a stealth fighter).

I replied in anger and he deleted his post. I am sure he remembers that. ask him Then I deleted all my posts. By the way Mutakalim is a very sincere and good muslim. I learned that later and deeply respect him for it.

Anyway I disclosed that information even when PAF had not done that (but knew soon they will). That's all I would say.

Same way, now I interact with Pakistani colleges back home and am well aware pf Pakistani capabilities.

Pakistani is already at the cutting edge of stealth research.

Pakistani universities can synthesis and analyses arbitrary 3D structures with required radar absorbing characteristics (RAM coating) and have expertise in advanced composites with low observability characteristics. Just read this review by Pakistanis:

Methods and composite materials—A review

Where they review the most advanced research for stealth composites out there on the topic. it is very simple readable paper. That's why I chose to list it here. But for more advanced complex pakistani research just google "Pakistan electromagentic absorbtion composites" and other terms. Realize that lot of Pakistani papers don't have the keyword "Pakistan" in them. Spend sometime on the google.

Pakistani universities using advanced chemistry are synthesizing whatever arbitrary RAM coating they need with whatever characteristics they seek. One just one such is Link below (I am listing the first one in google search)

Enhancement of electromagnetic waves absorption properties of CuFe2O4 magnetic nanoparticles embedded in ZnO matrix

You are welcome to google even more.

Yet people say we need to steal from Osama raid helicopter. WTH. When can synthesis arbitrary RAM coatings why we need to steal?

Even Pakistani universities have been analyzing and synthesizing various nanocomposite (used in the latest F-35 versions) with required either electromagnetic or other desired characteristics for quite sometimes (a little googling with keywords such as nano-composites +Pakistan etc. will help). Again note that not all research done by Pakistanis comes with keyword "Pakistan" in it.

There is so much research is coming out of Pakistan and Pakistanis students overseas that I can't be bothered to list it nor it is physically possible.

Also FOR GOD sake do realize that only few thousands Pakistani do their PhDs in Pakistan but 10,000s' of then are studying for an advanced PhD overseas. Even more for masters. In China alone there are now nearly 28,000 to 30,000 Pakistani students, roughly half of them doing a PhD or masters. In UK there are more than twice as many. I can't even count in the rest in of europe, Russia, South korea or japan or US.

PAF has access to the best of these high technology brains and always did.

Yet this man and his likes here keep making Pakistan look like some sahara nation in africa.

Even look at me. I am researching for my future aerospace and AI corporation in Pakistan using mathematics such as sheave-theoretic and curvature free complex valued differential geometric approaches that are mathematically so complex that an average person needs decades of work after PhD to truely become fluent in them. Yet I am only 32.
When he implies Pakistanis can't master complex and abstract mathematics or engineering, it does not fit my mental model based on my own experiences. It does not make sense to me. What you want me to do, stay quiet.

There are Pakistanis who have mastery of things far beyond I can understand. Many of such people are employed by Pakistan military. That's why his view of pakistan doesn't make sense to me. Pakistan has money problems otherwise Pakistan can do anything and everything. Off course we need more labs, research center but foundational capability already exists.

Pakistan was just few years, repeat just few years behind from NASA in developing full scale navier stokes equations solvers for complex configurations. The code was named PAK-3D. Now it has developed into extremely sophisticated CFD software in its own right capable of analyzing the most complex situation one can imagine.

In stealth related field Pakistan has done just as well. Both frequency domain and time-domain approaches were implemented in a scattering analysis software at NESCOM at bit less than a decade ago. The PAF is always ahead.

In United States for F-22 synthesis (and later F-35), a theory developed by Russian Physicist Pyotr Yakovlevich was used extensively (called Physical diffraction theory) along with time domain approaches for further analysis and verification. Their code had significant problems even in 1990s (can’t remember the source now but there is report by NASA I think that discusses it in great detail). That's how complex these things can be even for US due to so many technical problems (e.g. stability of numerical algorithms etc.) I will look for it in my free time and put it here when I will un-ban this forum.

Pakistan implemented all major frequency domain approaches long ago.

Time domain high bandwidth approaches (Bandwidth depends on Space-time discretionary scheme used for example) were also implemented. The first approach was well same again that was done by US. Namely sophisticated codes involving Finite-difference time-domain approaches were developed enabling Pakistan to solve electromagnetic interactions for full scale aircraft/missile configurations. Later on some more advanced approaches were implemented. More high resolution capability based on latest advancement is available now in Pakistan including hybrid approaches (depends on how much computational power is at hand otherwise Pakistan can go as detailed as Pakistan likes). I would rather not discuss them.

I even recently had discussions with Pakistani colleagues involving joint computational aerodynamic and electrodynamics optimization framework that had added ability to deal with associated Magneto-hydrodynamics. Let’s just say that it involves extremely fast stealth missiles and highly maneuverable re-entry vehicles. I leave it here.

These things are at the edge of cutting edge beyond what these anti-Pakistani people can even understand.

PAF is way ahead of even NESCOM.

I am going to remove the post. My purpose has been achieved. He disappeared. Mean time I won't come here but I strongly believe that I was right to confront him.

You will all will come to know the truth of all this when Pakistan will flight test "an indigenous true 5th generation stealth aircraft". Already detailed component level analysis is ongoing. While people on this forum still debating we will need to buy things from China.

I am going to remove the original post. You could have asked respectfully rather then name calling. I hate that for some reason.

You are an asset to this forum, please don't leave despite insults and misbehavior even from mods.
 
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That is nano particle composite. It is usually taught in Phd level
 
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To be honest, I will only believe it when I see a fully functioning prototype. Last time PN made us excited regarding a nuclear sub and that dream never actualised even after two decades.
 
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To be honest, I will only believe it when I see a fully functioning prototype. Last time PN made us excited regarding a nuclear sub and that dream never actualised even after two decades.
They never said they are going to develop nuclear submarine soon. They pushed for it. There were no actual design offices set up for related technologies as have been done for project AZM. Nuclear submarine is just postponed. An distant uncle in Pak navy told me quite a while ago that after 2023 when economy stabilizes, the program will start. I hope that he is right. Nuclear submarine is a long term ambition and it will happen.
Don't give away too much. His most common tactic is to get you angry by insulting Pak capability and then getting you to spill info.
I guess you are right. All right brother. I have deleted it. now can you delete that post in which you quoted me since my post is still there in your quote. I promise not to discuss such things with this much openness ever again.
 
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No one made such a claim. Someone did claim there was Italian input on the program. Impossible to prove or disprove. But to understand this you need a mind that understands nuances.

Don't worry i will soon be going on a long project assignment ans will not be available on the forum, then you can prance around claiming Pak cannot do x y and z in peace.
I think an Italian radar was once in contention for the JF-17 but that was many years ago ... apart from that, I have not heard anything Italian in relation.
 
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They never said they are going to develop nuclear submarine soon. They pushed for it. There were no actual design offices set up for related technologies as have been done for project AZM. Nuclear submarine is just postponed. An distant uncle in Pak navy told me quite a while ago that after 2023 when economy stabilizes, the program will start. I hope that he is right. Nuclear submarine is a long term ambition and it will happen.

I guess you are right. All right brother. I have deleted it. now can you delete that post in which you quoted me since my post is still there in your quote. I promise not to discuss such things with this much openness ever again.

Once on the internet, always on the internet. I'm sure its already been seen by unfriendly eyes. Might as well let Pakistanis feel better about their accomplishments. Sometimes courage is all that is needed.

Watch the YouTube video by Azad Chaiwala of Jolta CEO. We have to create that culture of confidence that we can do anything. We have to play this like cricket. That is the only way forward.
I think an Italian radar was once in contention for the JF-17 but that was many years ago ... apart from that, I have not heard anything Italian in relation.

Someone posted here a claim that there was some input on engines from an Italian source. Deino here wanted myself and Mastan Khan to condemn that. We didn't, as such claims are not falsifiable. For all we know it could be true as Messiach suggested Pak was tweaking the RD93 to the extent of exchanging parts (I.e. single crystal blades).

This refusal got deino's goat and he has been polluting threads ever since.
 
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No one made such a claim. Someone did claim there was Italian input on the program. Impossible to prove or disprove. But to understand this you need a mind that understands nuances.

Don't worry i will soon be going on a long project assignment ans will not be available on the forum, then you can prance around claiming Pak cannot do x y and z in peace.


Oh well ... seems as if your memory is not as strong!

JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion | Page 406 | Pakistan Defence

1607244194833.png


So there was indeed that claim an Italian engine was verified and indeed I wanted that you and MK don't simply agree "on all accounts" but take a differentiated approach to each single argument; which you condemned. Fact remains, there is no Italian engine available and at least this could be admitted, but as it seems you two are already so much upset on me that regardless what I say "IT MUST BE WRONG"! Even if I would say water is wet, you would contradict and MK would claim I'm not allowed to write something since I haven't written a technical analysis.

Therefore my final comment to @Rafeh

I'm really sorry that you feel so much offended, that you think I'm constantly belittling the PAF or Pakistan at all, quite to the contrary I have the deepest respect to it and its achievements. But taht does not prevent me from being critical.
Also I'm well aware where are my own weaknesses and strong-points and I never portrayed myself as an aeronautical or aviation expert; all I am is an expert on Chinese and PLAAF-related stuff and as such I give my best understanding on certain items and details I understand. I also more than once added that I'm happy to be proven wrong, that I will admit my mistakes and errors and always apaologise when I was wrong.

What i however cannot accept - and that's IMO most likely the problem also between both of us - is this ignoring a discussion, avoiding or diverting a discussion to another playground (like your question above) and most of all refuting a reasonable argument simply by "you are not allowed to post" or "you are insulting my motherland"! That's just like in the Turkish thread concerning the TFX.

Why is telling the truth, that there is no Italian engine and that the Block 3 cannot use the AMRAAM is an insult? Why is my refusal of a proposed "WS-15-powered J-10P" or even a "twin-engined super J-10X with two WS-10" as a wet-dream an insult while certain other members are constantly allowed to insult me by ethnics or religion (by the way, which is plain wrong!)??

But to your question: You are correct, I cannot answer is but I never claimed I could nor is this relevant in pointing towards logical failures in otherone's arguments....

1607244522711.png


... since not being able to answer this specific question does not mean I'm wrong on all accounts and others are always correct regardless what they post. This strictly "only black-only white" - "only correct - only wrong" attitude is what annoys me.

As such I'm perfectly capable to discuss why IMO the JH-7A won't be an option, why China will not deliver J-15, J-16 and J-20 nor even the Liaoning, Type 055 DDG and that all for free, why IMO there is no chance that "PAF has to do is take the template, customize it, make it smaller for the subcontinent, and viola, Pak could have a UCAV that evens out India's numbers advantage" and also why I don't think that Pakistan cannot develop independently a fifth generation type fully on its own.

Quite in return, since you are the specialist: Is in your honest opinion Pakistan capable of "... take the template, customize it, make it smaller for the subcontinent, and viola, Pak could have a UCAV that evens out India's numbers advantage" independently without any assistance say from from China?

Again; I never said i cannot, all i said it cannot alone. ... so much on black and white!

Best and take care.
 
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Oh well ... seems as if your memory is not as strong!

JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion | Page 406 | Pakistan Defence

View attachment 693637

So there was indeed that claim an Italian engine was verified and indeed I wanted that you and MK don't simply agree "on all accounts" but take a differentiated approach to each single argument; which you condemned. Fact remains, there is no Italian engine available and at least this could be admitted, but as it seems you two are already so much upset on me that regardless what I say "IT MUST BE WRONG"! Even if I would say water is wet, you would contradict and MK would claim I'm not allowed to write something since I haven't written a technical analysis.

Therefore my final comment to @Rafeh

I'm really sorry that you feel so much offended, that you think I'm constantly belittling the PAF or Pakistan at all, quite to the contrary I have the deepest respect to it and its achievements. But taht does not prevent me from being critical.
Also I'm well aware where are my own weaknesses and strong-points and I never portrayed myself as an aeronautical or aviation expert; all I am is an expert on Chinese and PLAAF-related stuff and as such I give my best understanding on certain items and details I understand. I also more than once added that I'm happy to be proven wrong, that I will admit my mistakes and errors and always apaologise when I was wrong.

What i however cannot accept - and that's IMO most likely the problem also between both of us - is this ignoring a discussion, avoiding or diverting a discussion to another playground (like your question above) and most of all refuting a reasonable argument simply by "you are not allowed to post" or "you are insulting my motherland"! That's just like in the Turkish thread concerning the TFX.

Why is telling the truth, that there is no Italian engine and that the Block 3 cannot use the AMRAAM is an insult? Why is my refusal of a proposed "WS-15-powered J-10P" or even a "twin-engined super J-10X with two WS-10" as a wet-dream an insult while certain other members are constantly allowed to insult me by ethnics or religion (by the way, which is plain wrong!)??

But to your question: You are correct, I cannot answer is but I never claimed I could nor is this relevant in pointing towards logical failures in otherone's arguments....

View attachment 693641

... since not being able to answer this specific question does not mean I'm wrong on all accounts and others are always correct regardless what they post. This strictly "only black-only white" - "only correct - only wrong" attitude is what annoys me.

As such I'm perfectly capable to discuss why IMO the JH-7A won't be an option, why China will not deliver J-15, J-16 and J-20 nor even the Liaoning, Type 055 DDG and that all for free, why IMO there is no chance that "PAF has to do is take the template, customize it, make it smaller for the subcontinent, and viola, Pak could have a UCAV that evens out India's numbers advantage" and also why I don't think that Pakistan cannot develop independently a fifth generation type fully on its own.

Quite in return, since you are the specialist: Is in your honest opinion Pakistan capable of "... take the template, customize it, make it smaller for the subcontinent, and viola, Pak could have a UCAV that evens out India's numbers advantage" independently without any assistance say from from China?

Again; I never said i cannot, all i said it cannot alone. ... so much on black and white!

Best and take care.

Deino I never meant to offend anyone. I sincerely apologize if I made you feel bad.

My expertise are in theoretical and mathematical analysis. I don't know anything about italian engines or J-15, J-16 and J-20 nor even the Liaoning, Type 055 DDG. Meaning I have not memorized nor I can all those various specialist aerospace/navy systems that are available. I am sure you know them much better than I do. That's true. They are your areas of expertise. So I am never going to argue with you ever on that. I don't even know what kind of air to air missiles are out there. That's a being a product specialist. That's not what design or analysis engineers do. They don't memorize what other engineers have created. But they can create their own.

The person who can cook, does not memorizes what kind of take away food is available out there in the whole world. But he can cook one.

same way, What I can do is to analyze one such system.

That's different than knowing all the types or kinds of aircraft or which missiles goes with what aircraft. I don't know what missiles jf-17 carries. Or what kind of air dropped bombs are out there. You and others here do know them much better than I will ever do.

I am never going to get into those discussion since I never tried to memorize all those things or spend time in learning about a certain already available engine characteristics (but I can if I want to).

These are your and other people's expertise. I will never argue with you on that.

My problems was just that you always implied Pakistan can't even design an original stealth air-frame (see more below on that).

As far as Pakistani design capabilities are concerned, I will give you the reply later some day since i have a deadline for a publication.

But here is short version.

Question 1: Can Pakistan design a full scale 5th generation stealth air frame (notice the word air-frame its bear bone aircraft without any major subsystem yet).


The answer is absolutely yes.
Pakistan has expertise to jointly optimize aerodynamics, stealth and structural aspect of an arbitrary chosen configuration as well as characterize its aerodynamics, structural and flight control characteristics (via wind tunnel and computational engineering e.g. CFD etc.).

Pakistan can engineer advanced flight control systems (we routinely do for our missiles for example, yes they are just as complex).

Pakistan does not need a template. Pakistan can already design arbitrary air-frame of its chosen configuration (note again airframe = aircraft without engine or certain other sub-systems etc.). You will live to see Pakistani designed stealth fighter in the not too distant future. Trust me.

Can Pakistan develop every single sub-system.

Answer: No body not even US develops every single subsystem or component nor they should (it will be too cost prohibitive). google contractor list for F-22 and see from Japan to Europe, you have contractors for it. Chips are probably made in Taiwan and so on. That's why every country needs allies (its not out of love).

What Pakistani can do is to design some in house sub-systems including major avionics components. The remaining ones will either be designed by Pakistan (but not manufactured) or be given required technical specifications which will be forwarded to contractors either in Pakistan or around the world. That's the standard procedure US follows, China follows and Pakistan will follow.

I will prove to you using open source information why Pakistan can design a stealth aircraft, later some day.

Don't worry I don't have any intention to abuse you or start arguing with you. You are welcome to continue your discussion as nothing has ever happened. Trust me Islam prohibits me to go around creating psychologically harsh environment for people. We are told to be very kind even though we often don't follow the advice.

Still I have the necessary sensitivity to know when to give people their psychological safe space (by not interfering in their posts for example).

So I won't interfere in your posts again.

Please don't worry about anything at least from my side.
 
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Deino I never meant to offend anyone. I sincerely apologize if I made you feel bad.

My expertise are in theoretical and mathematical analysis. I don't know anything about italian engines or J-15, J-16 and J-20 nor even the Liaoning, Type 055 DDG. Meaning I have not memorized nor I can all those various specialist aerospace/navy systems that are available. I am sure you know them much better than I do. That's true. They are your areas of expertise. So I am never going to argue with you ever on that. I don't even know what kind of air to air missiles are out there. That's a being a product specialist. That's not what design or analysis engineers do. They don't memorize what other engineers have created. But they can create their own.

The person who can cook, does not memorizes what kind of take away food is available out there in the whole world. But he can cook one.

same way, What I can do is to analyze one such system such as a missile or an aircraft or work as an engineer and mathematician for its design and analysis.

That's different than knowing all the types or kinds of aircraft or which missiles goes with what aircraft. I don't know what missiles jf-17 carries. Or what kind of air dropped bombs are out there. You and others here do know them much better than I will ever do.

I am never going to get into those discussion since I never tried to memorize all those things or spend time in learning about a certain already available engine characteristics (but I can if I want to).

These are your and other people's expertise. I will never argue with you on that.

My problems was just that you always implied Pakistan can't even design an original stealth air-frame (see more below on that).

As far as Pakistani design capabilities are concerned, I will give you the reply later some day since i have a deadline for a publication.

But here is short version.

Question 1: Can Pakistan design a full scale 5th generation stealth air frame (notice the word air-frame its bear bone aircraft without any major subsystem yet).


The answer is absolutely yes.
Pakistan has expertise to jointly optimize aerodynamics, stealth and structural aspect of an arbitrary chosen configuration as well as characterize its aerodynamics, structural and flight control characteristics (via wind tunnel and computational engineering e.g. CFD etc.).

Pakistan can engineer advanced flight control systems (we routinely do for our missiles for example, yes they are just as complex).

Pakistan does not need a template. Pakistan can already design arbitrary air-frame of its chosen configuration (note again airframe = aircraft without engine or certain other sub-systems etc.). You will live to see Pakistani designed stealth fighter in the not too distant future. Trust me.

Can Pakistan develop every single sub-system.

Answer: No body not even US develops every single subsystem or component nor they should (it will be too cost prohibitive). google contractor list for F-22 and see from Japan to Europe, you have contractors for it. Chips are probably made in Taiwan and so on. That's why every country needs allies (its not out of love).

What Pakistani can do is to design some in house sub-systems including major avionics components. The remaining ones will either be designed by Pakistan (but not manufactured) or be given required technical specifications which will be forwarded to contractors either in Pakistan or around the world. That's the standard procedure US follows, China follows and Pakistan will follow.

I will prove to you using open source information why Pakistan can design a stealth aircraft, later some day.

Don't worry I don't have any intention to abuse you or start arguing with you. You are welcome to continue your discussion as nothing has ever happened. Trust me Islam prohibits me to go around creating psychologically harsh environment for people. We are told to be very kind even though we often don't follow the advice.

Still I have the necessary sensitivity to know when to give people their psychological safe space (by not interfering in their posts for example).

So I won't interfere in your posts again.

Please don't worry about anything at least from my side.


Thanks for your kind and honest reply and I cab assure you I'm in no way offended by your post. In fact as I noted, I know my limitations and they are surely undeniable. I can only hope the same in return, it was never my intention to offend you nor Pakistan.

As such I'm eager for any further input and advice from you and if it is off-topic, we shall continue via PM.

Kind regards and best,
Andreas
 
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Don't give away too much. The fellow is a Jewish spy. His most common tactic is to get you angry by insulting Pak capability and then getting you to spill info.

too much brother. Deino is a Jewish spy

What makes a spy "Jewish"? Does he have a crooked nose and is circumcised? Why would any "spy" worth his salt come on a forum like this for reliable "inside secrets"?! The stupidity of some of these posts beggars belief, but it's what I've come to expect of Ilk who have a certain cognitive dissonance.
 
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You read a highly technical response that went straight above your head like a bouncer. Mr Deino needs to be shown his place in the pecking order. Yes, we have a lot of ordinary Pakistanis who cannot express themselves, cannot reason about advanced topics. But to ritualistically degrade them and to use the word Pakistanis when doing that, it is humiliating for those Pakistanis who actually know what they are talking about.
that technical response was pointless. as relevant as someone wrote an Arabic passage on the Islamic Jurisprudence by Ibn Tamiyah.

agreed with your assessment of (my lack of ) knowledge with the irrelevant rant .
but it was out of scope and unnecessary.

on a lighter note
ritualistic degrading is also hardwired into our national character because another trait of not doing anything and blaming others for our poor image always dictates our behavior. :S

this thread is not about a forum member. so lets not play the game of putting people in place specially those from the west because we will loose out. to be honest other than reverse engineering some salvaged American cruise missiles and splitting the atom (and an assembly plant of JF 17) we don't have much to show heck we cant even address our crippling energy crises.

thanks for engaging. we must continue the healthy disagreements on all subjects
 
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I will watch it Insha-Allah tomorrow.

I want to add that Pakistani military has ONE way information flow policy. Meaning let's say some Pakistani goes to Pakistan who has some specific expertise. They will only ask what he knows. They will never tell him what they will do with the information or mathematical framework he suggested for a certain sub-problem. He would never know the whole problem or even part of the whole project. A sincere Pakistani would never ask for any classified information in the first place.

Things are discussed at the fundamental physics and mathematical level only like a university researcher which is absolutely safe. NOT at an actual sub-system, product, or project level. Even government researcher in American nuclear facilities such as los alamos work with researchers outside of their institution working only at the fundamental physics or mathematical level and implementing it away for an actual design in secrecy.

The point is classified information always remain classified. Pakistan is very good at it.

Even US needs outside researchers (contrary to common beliefs). For example for F-35 Lockheed martin had severe difficulty in synthesizing multi-sensor detection and tracking algorithms based on random finite sets (a topic in stochastic geometry). They struggled with it for nearly two decades. So they went around the world seeking "more smarter researchers who could solve the problem for them" and they found two Vietnamese brothers who finally gave them various solutions after more than a decade of research. The most general solution called Generalized labeled multi-Bernoulli filter was eventually implemented as part of F-35's multi-sensor fusion suit.

Yes I implemented it myself in C++ (combined with distributed sensor fusion framework that me and some colleagues are working on) then discussed it with fellow Pakistanis back home.

The point is discussing fundamental physics keeps a lot of things secret but even Lockheed martin had to work with academics to get more complex work done by outsiders. Its the nature of complex engineering.
May Allah protect you from the dinosaurs in civies and uniform that haunt and bully the talented people out of the job which they take as a national service and force some to even out of the country.

I went for a job in a certain organisation setup along the borders of Pindi Islamabad administration near the police line. I was invited by a former Army officer who was employed there and had a technical and scientific background as well as had served in Artillery.

in rough terms he was a link or middleman between the civilian engineers and scientists and the strategic planning and weapons leadership (dominated by Military star officers). his job was to convey (translate) the problems or requests from the military leadership to the technical team and then translate the solutions back. I went in their executive canteen and witnessed the not so friendly conversation between young bright eyed engineers and scientists with overbearing retired AVMs and Generals. there was nothing specific discussed or argued about since everything is need to know but I could sense both verbal and nonverbal communication.

reason to share this story is that we have only a handful stories of success. people get defensive and feel threatened by talented people. those who are blessed with some knowledge feel entitled to belittle other around them and feel threatened if someone challenges them.
 
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