Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Armchair]

I own no hounds, I am a humble student.

That F-16 F-117 analogy falls apart when you consider the fact that the US is the world leader in aerospace while Pakistan has never developed an FCS.

Secondly, like I said, designs are super EASY to do. I can make several, that will probably be very good. Windtunnel models just means they are trying to make a mathematical model of the flight dynamics. Nothing more, nothing less. For all we know there might be 30 different models to be tested. An aircraft is more than just it's flight model (especially an advanced 4+ or 5th gen aircraft).

Finally, I happen to have some first-hand (or second-hand at worst) knowledge about the state of some aspects of Project Azm. Let me just say that we are struggling and realizing that we may have bit off more than we can chew when we said "we'll develop an FGFA on our own." There are mountain size holes in our technical capability that our planners seem to have overlooked. Maybe I'll detail the stories many years later when it won't affect anything.


I was literally afraid of this as I wrote that post. That is why I added the disclaimer at the end lol.

Bonus Chooran: You can sell the two types of "stealthy" aircraft being refueled as Azm prototypes themselves. In reality I just made some nice looking jahazes in an hour to be refueled for the pictures lol.
View attachment 655858
I am not trying to show off. I am trying to show how easy it is to make designs that look good and impressive. It doesn't mean I have Lockheed Martin in my bedroom lol.

Well, the JF-17 FCS is available to Pakistan. US literally slapped the F-16 FCS on the F-117, with minor tweaks. And their aerodynamics are completely different. If you keep Azm approximately with the same layout - conventional with at best a twin vertical tail, you can essentially do the same.

Again, I fear we aren't on the same page so we won't agree or understand each other.

 

[Indos]

I own no hounds, I am a humble student.

That F-16 F-117 analogy falls apart when you consider the fact that the US is the world leader in aerospace while Pakistan has never developed an FCS.

Secondly, like I said, designs are super EASY to do. I can make several, that will probably be very good. Windtunnel models just means they are trying to make a mathematical model of the flight dynamics. Nothing more, nothing less. For all we know there might be 30 different models to be tested. An aircraft is more than just it's flight model (especially an advanced 4+ or 5th gen aircraft).

.

If design are super easy to do so why Korea and Indonesia need 46 million dollar and three years in the first phase of KFX/IFX development (2011-2013) to finally make C 103 design ? Basic design, not yet detail design.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

If design are super easy to do so why Korea and Indonesia need 46 million dollar and three years in the first phase of KFX/IFX development (2011-2013) to finally make C 103 design ? Basic design, not yet detail design.

The design cost is not given on a particular plane basis. For example, tens of millions of dollars were spent for the initial phase design of the TFX, but the licenses of the programs that you can test the requirements for, and not only design, Fluid dynamics that help you design and design the aircraft were for supercomputers that allow you to use the programs. The same is most likely true for KFX - IFX.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bonus Chooran: You can sell the two types of "stealthy" aircraft being refueled as Azm prototypes themselves. In reality I just made some nice looking jahazes in an hour to be refueled for the pictures lol.
View attachment 655858
I am not trying to show off. I am trying to show how easy it is to make designs that look good and impressive. It doesn't mean I have Lockheed Martin in my bedroom lol.

EXCLUSIVE: SeCrEt PaK LoYaL WiNgMaN UaV

 

[JamD]

If design are super easy to do so why Korea and Indonesia need 46 million dollar and three years in the first phase of KFX/IFX development (2011-2013) to finally make C 103 design ? Basic design, not yet detail design.

I should have clarified. My original posts are about CONCEPTUAL design. Conceptual design is easy. There are several stages of aircraft design. Conceptual > preliminary > detailed. Each stage stage gets exponentially more complex and expensive. You can imagine that conceptual design isn't enough to manufacture anything. It's for layout and basic specifications. So you know you're on the right track. (this is a good summary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_design_process). The whole design process (which includes scale models, wind tunnel models, possibly prototypes) can be anywhere from 3 to 10 years long depending on a lot of things.

Well, the JF-17 FCS is available to Pakistan.

Soch hai apki (you have no idea lol).

 

[Armchair]

Soch hai apki (you have no idea lol).

Given that neither of us works for the PAC or PAF, I doubt either of us would know for certain. We are after all, both civilians. However, given that the JF-17 program is a joint program with China, one could reasonably assume that the FCS is available to Pakistan. It is not as if the Chinese would withhold the FCS, or wish not to collaborate with them, or even sell it to them for a price.

It is, after all a bunch of code. At its basic level 0s and 1s. PAF at one point hacked their F-16s during the sanctions era and did fun things with the F-16 FCS. Or so we learned from members back in the day, of Pakdef.

 

[Figaro]

Given that neither of us works for the PAC or PAF, I doubt either of us would know for certain. We are after all, both civilians. However, given that the JF-17 program is a joint program with China, one could reasonably assume that the FCS is available to Pakistan. It is not as if the Chinese would withhold the FCS, or wish not to collaborate with them, or even sell it to them for a price.

It is, after all a bunch of code. At its basic level 0s and 1s. PAF at one point hacked their F-16s during the sanctions era and did fun things with the F-16 FCS. Or so we learned from members back in the day, of Pakdef.

Actually how do we know that China has shared the FCS? The FCS source code has been the point of contention in quite a few TOT transfers (I don't think the Russians wanted to transfer the FGFA FCS to the Indians). Yes at its basic level FCS is a bunch of 0s and 1s but FCS is one of the most advanced/difficult areas of software engineering.

 

[PeacefulWar]

Actually how do we know that China has shared the FCS? The FCS source code has been the point of contention in quite a few TOT transfers (I don't think the Russians wanted to transfer the FGFA FCS to the Indians). Yes at its basic level FCS is a bunch of 0s and 1s but FCS is one of the most advanced/difficult areas of software engineering.

It's a JV project not TOT so there is not issue to access FCS.
But I think he over-simplify these things.
We hear such words all around the forum, "just simply enlarge the body" "just simply modify the body so it becomes due engine"

 

[Armchair]

And there goes the intelligent discussion, and the bipolarity begins. Not civilized enough to argue without ad hominem.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... India can surprise us with 5th gen jet by shopping. ...

Exactly which 5th Gen is available to India to purchase?

It's taken them over a decade just to purchase the Rafales while Pakistan in that time frame is on the brink of inducting third block of JF-17 Thunder and also launched a 5th Gen project of its own.

 

[Figaro]

Exactly which 5th Gen is available to India to purchase?

It's taken them over a decade just to purchase the Rafales while Pakistan in that time frame is on the brink of inducting third block of JF-17 Thunder and also launched a 5th Gen project of its own.

Su-57/re-enter the FGFA program. There is literally no other viable option ... they are simply kicking the can down the road with the Rafael purchase.

 

[StructE]

Exactly which 5th Gen is available to India to purchase?

It's taken them over a decade just to purchase the Rafales while Pakistan in that time frame is on the brink of inducting third block of JF-17 Thunder and also launched a 5th Gen project of its own.

Don't count "launch of a project", you can't beat India in project launches.

 

[nadeemkhan110]

Exactly which 5th Gen is available to India to purchase?

It's taken them over a decade just to purchase the Rafales while Pakistan in that time frame is on the brink of inducting third block of JF-17 Thunder and also launched a 5th Gen project of its own.

India is an enemies of China and enemies of China can provide them everything on urgent basis and this is a big problem for us not China because China have many secret weapons or the weapons which is not for sale.
in recent days India have purchased many equipments from US Israel Russia Europe which we can't buy because of dollars. Try to understand
think about the future but don't close your eyes. Remember when multi nations fights enemy always occupy a weaker nation. Study WW1,2

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

India is an enemies of China and enemies of China can provide them everything on urgent basis and this is a big problem for us not China because China have many secret weapons or the weapons which is not for sale.
in recent days India have purchased many equipments from US Israel Russia Europe which we can't buy because of dollars. Try to understand
think about the future but don't close your eyes. Remember when multi nations fights enemy always occupy a weaker nation. Study WW1,2

You talk nonsense.

India can get everything on urgent basis and that makes it a powerful country?

What exactly has India received on urgent basis that it has saved India from surrendering Galwan Valley the way it has

How about last year when India received a beating from Pakistan Air Force?

 

[nadeemkhan110]

You talk nonsense.

India can get everything on urgent basis and that makes it a powerful country?

What exactly has India received on urgent basis that it has saved India from surrendering Galwan Valley the way it has

How about last year when India received a beating from Pakistan Air Force?

Yes our forces are best what I am trying to say is keep providing them better equipments and in army there is a simple rule don't ever take your enemy light and don't be overconfident and and don't compare your self with our friend china, china is upcoming superpower Even US don't want to fight china.