Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Su-57/re-enter the FGFA program. There is literally no other viable option ... they are simply kicking the can down the road with the Rafael purchase.

Wouldn't it be ironic and hilarious if India and Pakistan fund a company in a 3rd country to design and engineer the FCS for their respective projects...and are fully aware of the other side's involvement, but tolerate it so as to secure more funding, accelerate development, etc. Basically, AZM/AMCA end up using the same tech...

Because to be honest, if both countries are serious about building their own FGFAs, it's almost starting to seem that the above is their only real solution.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Su-57/re-enter the FGFA program. There is literally no other viable option ... they are simply kicking the can down the road with the Rafael purchase.

Joint LMFS with the Russians?

 

[PakShaheen79]

Acquire J-31/J-20 in 2030s with native configuration to safe cost and for keeping PAF razor sharp. Keep investing on R&D of own FGFA with a realistic induction date (2040+). Anyone thinking PAC is going to roll out our own 5G fighter in 2030s must be delusional. It will be a miracle if PAC build a simple full scale mock up by 2024-2025 with clear vision. Tech demonstrator and prototyping will take a decade further. So, it is only logical to de-link AZM and PAF's first 5G aircraft. We must focus on MALE drone with strong ECM/ECCM sub-systems, navigational and target acquisition pods and radars etc. These smaller achievements will eventually lead to something as big as own 5G fighter one day IA. No need to over commit. PAF will have to adopt strategy of Younas Khan. He was not classy as Inzimam or Saeed Anwar but he knew his limited capability of playing certain strokes. He applied himself accordingly and never try to be over smart and eventually became bigger test match batsman than both Inzi and Anwar.

 

[Imran Khan]

Acquire J-31/J-20 in 2030s with native configuration to safe cost and for keeping PAF razor sharp. Keep investing on R&D of own FGFA with a realistic induction date (2040+). Anyone thinking PAC is going to roll out our own 5G fighter in 2030s must be delusional. It will be a miracle if PAC build a simple full scale mock up by 2024-2025 with clear vision. Tech demonstrator and prototyping will take a decade further. So, it is only logical to de-link AZM and PAF's first 5G aircraft. We must focus on MALE drone with strong ECM/ECCM sub-systems, navigational and target acquisition pods and radars etc. These smaller achievements will eventually lead to something as big as own 5G fighter one day IA. No need to over commit. PAF will have to adopt strategy of Younas Khan. He was not classy as Inzimam or Saeed Anwar but he knew his limited capability of playing certain strokes. He applied himself accordingly and never try to be over smart and eventually became bigger test match batsman than both Inzi and Anwar.

if its 2040 then we do not need them sir

 

[PakShaheen79]

if its 2040 then we do not need them sir

Almost every 5G fighter has missed its planned date and there is an obvious reason for that. Pushing the envelop of existing knowledge base and engineering base is not easy. I have put 2040 assuming that all governments will own this project in same spirit as our nuclear and missile programs once were owned. I have said PAF will be in better position to let Chinese mature J-31/J-20 more at least for next 5-6 years, then PAF can place an order after completing the induction of Block-IIIs. In Project AZM our real achievement will be the learning curve and skilled manpower and enhanced engineering base for aviation in the country for both civilian and military applications. We must master MALE drones first so that we can earn by marketing them along with Thunders to support further R&D. WE have option to induct our first 5G fighter so we must keep a steady speed with realistic time frame. Don't worry, in 2040, both PAF and IAF will be still operating many 4/4.5G fighters. So we will be not late. 2030 is too ambitious. Very successful massive industrial espionage is only way to achieve AZM in that time frame. But even if we get blueprints and all the drawings, do we have engineering base to handle them? Certainly NO!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Acquire J-31/J-20 in 2030s with native configuration to safe cost and for keeping PAF razor sharp. Keep investing on R&D of own FGFA with a realistic induction date (2040+). Anyone thinking PAC is going to roll out our own 5G fighter in 2030s must be delusional. It will be a miracle if PAC build a simple full scale mock up by 2024-2025 with clear vision. Tech demonstrator and prototyping will take a decade further. So, it is only logical to de-link AZM and PAF's first 5G aircraft. We must focus on MALE drone with strong ECM/ECCM sub-systems, navigational and target acquisition pods and radars etc. These smaller achievements will eventually lead to something as big as own 5G fighter one day IA. No need to over commit. PAF will have to adopt strategy of Younas Khan. He was not classy as Inzimam or Saeed Anwar but he knew his limited capability of playing certain strokes. He applied himself accordingly and never try to be over smart and eventually became bigger test match batsman than both Inzi and Anwar.

I agree 100%.

In fact, the ASR the CAS gave in May 2019 is a clear sign now towards a consortium or off-the-shelf solution for the FGFA. By stating 'twin-engine' and 'laser weapons' the CAS clearly set a very high bar, and no one should expect us to develop a production-ready solution in 7-10 years. The PAF would only give an ambitious ASR because it is now looking at working with an existing project, and the FC-31/J-35 is looking like it.

Not only should we de-link AZM from the FGFA, but we ought to tailor the AZM on advancing technology and our local R&D base. In other words, the demonstrator doesn't need to replicate what the FC-31/J-35 brings, but rather, deal with a different set of requirements. So, one need that will arise in the late 2030s is replacing our JF-17s from that point on (i.e., in the 2040s and 2050s). This is when AZM will matter most.

I think it's fitting that to replace the JF-17 -- i.e., an in-house project (albeit in the loose sense of the term since it was China that led the design and development) -- with a more local/domestic design. The timelines are much more realistic, lower input costs, and economies-of-scale more feasible (more numbers, longer production run, etc).

To me, the dream AZM would be a lightweight, single-engine fighter with an unstable design and respectable range and payload, but with the ability to work as a UCAV if configured. So we basically have a swing-function fighter that can either serve as a manned, defensive A2A jet, or an unmanned, offensive A2G drone. Basically, aim to have a production ready fighter by 2040.

 

[kursed]

To me, Azm should result in offensive NEZ range capable air to air weapons before any weapons carrying platform. We need better weapons for JF, that are not dependent upon 'export' versions.

 

[JamD]

To me, Azm should result in offensive NEZ range capable air to air weapons before any weapons carrying platform. We need better weapons for JF, that are not dependent upon 'export' versions.

Interesting you should say that. I don't think we've seen any indications of this being under Azm. If anything it would probably be an AWC project.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) remember one of the reasons I speculated for a J10CE purchase (PL15 and JF17).

 

[kursed]

Interesting you should say that. I don't think we've seen any indications of this being under Azm. If anything it would probably be an AWC project.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) remember one of the reasons I speculated for a J10CE purchase (PL15 and JF17).

That second last word has had my attention for a while now, considering our needs. =)

 

[JamD]

Acquire J-31/J-20 in 2030s with native configuration to safe cost and for keeping PAF razor sharp. Keep investing on R&D of own FGFA with a realistic induction date (2040+). Anyone thinking PAC is going to roll out our own 5G fighter in 2030s must be delusional. It will be a miracle if PAC build a simple full scale mock up by 2024-2025 with clear vision. Tech demonstrator and prototyping will take a decade further. So, it is only logical to de-link AZM and PAF's first 5G aircraft. We must focus on MALE drone with strong ECM/ECCM sub-systems, navigational and target acquisition pods and radars etc. These smaller achievements will eventually lead to something as big as own 5G fighter one day IA. No need to over commit. PAF will have to adopt strategy of Younas Khan. He was not classy as Inzimam or Saeed Anwar but he knew his limited capability of playing certain strokes. He applied himself accordingly and never try to be over smart and eventually became bigger test match batsman than both Inzi and Anwar.

Agreed. I am happy to see that this idea is gaining traction on this forum (and seems to be the way PAF is thinking).

 

[JamD]

View attachment 656915

That second last word has had my attention for a while now, considering our needs. =)

View attachment 656916

Umeed pe dunya qaim hai. Not sure if PAC has the stomach for that though.

 

[kursed]

Umeed pe dunya qaim hai. Not sure if PAC has the stomach for that though.

We'd eventually need to break the cocoon, we find ourselves in - if we actually want offensive capabilities. No one will give it to us on a platter, not even China. While yes, PL-15 is an option. We need a BVR weapon of our own that we can tinker with.

 

[Philip the Arab]

We'd eventually need to break the cocoon, we find ourselves in - if we actually want offensive capabilities. No one will give it to us on a platter, not even China. While yes, PL-15 is an option. We need a BVR weapon of our own that we can tinker with.

Marlin from South africa m8.

 

[JamD]

We'd eventually need to break the cocoon, we find ourselves in - if we actually want offensive capabilities. No one will give it to us on a platter, not even China. While yes, PL-15 is an option. We need a BVR weapon of our own that we can tinker with.

Oh I agree 200%. Waiting anxiously with 100 others for some important fauji uncles to realize what you just said. I have heard some things here and there over the years but nothing that sounded like an actual thing, more like just one-off curiosities of individuals.

 

[Bratva]

Oh I agree 200%. Waiting anxiously with 100 others for some important fauji uncles to realize what you just said. I have heard some things here and there over the years but nothing that sounded like an actual thing, more like just one-off curiosities of individuals.

Who'd have thought Pakistan will make an inhouse Anti-Ship seeker and modify babur into Harba? Or Underwater launch capsule for Babur-3. If MODP 2018-19 is of any indication, Harba is being upgraded further along with a supersonic cruise missile. Provided it took 12-15 years to reach to Harba,Babur-3 and Supersonic Anti Ship cruise missile level despite sever sanctions on the Nescom and AWC front end companies in 2017 and this year as well.

I guess the foundation and basic base is there. With the help of china, A customised inhouse solution can be developed. Like how Pakistan Navy purchased Azb and in paralle Harba development started in 2015.

If Pakistan commits the same level of resources it commited for Sub-Sonic cruise missile project, We can see AWC doing wonders in terms of Smart PGM's and Long range AAM.