Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[serenity]

Recently a Chinese member posted that it is confirmed that China will not allow any partner for J-35 program and considering that it is reported that AZM is supposed to be a clean sheet design, is it possible that China wishes to build another 5th gen fighter besides J-20 and J-35?
@araz @IblinI @Aamir Hussain @Quwa

There has been some cheap rumors from leakers saying CAC has also presented their light weight stealth fighter. The second PLAAF stealth fighter and PLAN stealth fighter is claimed to be two different fighters and CAC may won PLAAF light weight stealth fighter. Probably just bullshit rumors but if there is more talk about another 5th generation fighter, it may be referring to this CAC single engine developed from J-10 according to random fans. Actually there is probably no way CAC has this much money to be gambling against SAC's FC-31 based 5th generation. CAC more likely working on improving J-20 and J-10 series while already developing 6th gen. Rule is one generation finishing career, better generation becoming introduced, and higher generation being developed when second group introduced.

PLAN fighter for carrier 003 and above should be J-35 which is based on SAC's FC-31 prototype demonstrators. PLAAF maybe forget about all this since PLAN's 5th generation fighter will be fighting along with J-20 anyway since real serious air combat is not on Indian side but on eastern side where carriers will operate from.

More credible rumors say FC-31 is going to be exportable but engines are waiting for better than WS-13. Pakistan does not wish to use WS-13 and RD-33 series will not be suitable either for such an export fighter. Export of such a fighter is difficult too. At the moment only Pakistan is potential buyer but the fighter will be very expensive. Western nations cannot even buy Huawei forget J-35. Other countries either don't need something like this or can't afford many examples. Selling to Iran also means offending Saudi Arabia and Israel. So I don't think it's a problem of not allowed to sell but politics and price.

We will first need to wait and see SAC report successful PLAN or PLAAF sale. Another stealth fighter of 5th generation is unlikely because it's just too expensive to fully develop three. Definitely many prototypes exist. SAC had another heavy 5th gen fighter that competed with J-20 and lost. It looks like Su-37 stealthified and with canards too. SAC revealed the other one FC-31 to create some interest and let future potential customers see this FC-31 will be developed for a long time and not just come from nowhere. It was beginning from day 1 as a exportable fighter. However if PLAN and PLAAF decide to buy, there may be changes to this or there will be discussions on how to create another line for export. Maybe discussions result in foreign production line like JF-17. Just personal idea not definite.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I think a lot what Pakistan is doing has its beginnings in China. Harba, Baktar Shiken, Anza, Al-khalid and our long range tactical and nuclear missile not to speak of K-8 and JF-17.

I believe India did the same to circumvent international treaties and regulations (Brahmos). I think Pakistan is doing the same IMHO.

However, with project Azm, I think Pakistan has opted to go for western inputs which would be hard to access if there was a direct Chinese link with the project. I believe, Turkish and other western inputs will come and is wanted by Pakistan.

To answer your question, China will go on with their own program and keep a close watch on ours. We will develop a totally new fighter with indirect inputs from China but with Western engine, electronics, sensors, and weapons.

The engine bit, and composites, I am sure, will have Turkish inputs. I would not be surprised if at some point in future, Leonardo joins this project in some way. A lot out there in the best of the best fighter planes is available off the shelf with some end user modifications. Specially in the sensor suite and cockpit management systems etc.

At this point in time, AZM is on the drawing board only and desired performance parameters are being put together as per my info. They have not been finalized as yet.

But all this depends upon the financial health of the country. The project is moving forward at a slow pace. And a lot depends upon future foreign sales of JFT.

 

[JamD]

I think a lot what Pakistan is doing has its beginnings in China. Harba, Baktar Shiken, Anza, Al-khalid and our long range tactical and nuclear missile not to speak of K-8 and JF-17.

I believe India did the same to circumvent international treaties and regulations (Brahmos). I think Pakistan is doing the same IMHO.

However, with project Azm, I think Pakistan has opted to go for western inputs which would be hard to access if there was a direct Chinese link with the project. I believe, Turkish and other western inputs will come and is wanted by Pakistan.

To answer your question, China will go on with their own program and keep a close watch on ours. We will develop a totally new fighter with indirect inputs from China but with Western engine, electronics, sensors, and weapons.

The engine bit, and composites, I am sure, will have Turkish inputs. I would not be surprised if at some point in future, Leonardo joins this project in some way. A lot out there in the best of the best fighter planes is available off the shelf with some end user modifications. Specially in the sensor suite and cockpit management systems etc.

At this point in time, AZM is on the drawing board only and desired performance parameters are being put together as per my info. They have not been finalized as yet.

But all this depends upon the financial health of the country. The project is moving forward at a slow pace. And a lot depends upon future foreign sales of JFT.

My two cents:
Project Azms FGFA is not/should not/can not be PAF's first 5th gen fighter. Everything you have said, I think is true, however I think it is (should be) true for a fighter program that PAC is looking at for the 2040s, and not for PAF's near immediate needs for a 5th-gen fighter. I think this is the more reasonable/logical approach given Pakistan's ground realities (economic and technological).

 

[Ali_Baba]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...build-new-jet-fighter-says-defence-secretary/

Maybe PAF should put down some cash and join Tempest ? They are looking for Partners..

Its only a matter of time before IAF does, if PAF does not beat them to the punch.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

My two cents:
Project Azms FGFA is not/should not/can not be PAF's first 5th gen fighter. Everything you have said, I think is true, however I think it is (should be) true for a fighter program that PAC is looking at for the 2040s, and not for PAF's near immediate needs for a 5th-gen fighter. I think this is the more reasonable/logical approach given Pakistan's ground realities (economic and technological).

IMHO... I don't think China wants to tie J-35 itself with a foreign partner, but the FC-31 is still game as a next-gen export solution (with a partner). In other words, another FC-1 situation.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Well i hope paf makes azm as 6th gen fighter bcoz in 40s it would be benchmark like f22 of today. I know its a long short but when you develop something it should stand out when it becomes reality.

For 5th gen i think j31 with paf modifications should sufice as f16 replacements till late 40s until azm takes over.

 

[Akh1112]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...build-new-jet-fighter-says-defence-secretary/

Maybe PAF should put down some cash and join Tempest ? They are looking for Partners..

Its only a matter of time before IAF does, if PAF does not beat them to the punch.

It would be too hard and unrealistic(atleast for the PAF). Here's why:

1. Cost per unit.

Without a doubt, Tempest is gonna be bloody expensive. Realistically, i'm guessing it'll cost somewhere in the range of $400m-$500m PER AIRCRAFT! It will not benefit from the same economies of scales that something like the F-35 do. Here is what i used to make this guess. NGAD/PCA is estimated to cost $300m PER UNIT(for around 400 units) according to the Congressional Budget Office. Just look at the Typhoon as a example of cost for low production aircraft(relative to something like the F-35/F-16).

2. the India factor.

India is on the target market for the UK's arms exports. (source: https://www.caat.org.uk/media/press-releases/2019-02-26) Naturally, India is also a larger market, for the UK to upset India would be a pretty bad idea on their behalf since we cannot replace India for the UK. Also, India holds more political leverage and will be able to use that leverage to prevent a deal/investment.

3. How much investment is needed?

Upfront cost would be astronomical for someone like us. We full would not be able to throw money at the Tempest, especially when we wouldn't even be able to afford the platform in significant numbers afterwards anyway. We simply don't have the cash to spare.

4. Sanctions.

Imagine spending billions of dollars for something we don't have complete control over. Imagine we do use it in a way where the UK isn't happy, we could potentially see some sort of blockade which would harm the functionality of our shiny new multi billion dollar purchase.

5. China factor.

I don't think the UK would be comfortable with exporting what is effectively the very best they have to Pakistan considering our very close relationship with China. There will no doubt be fears in terms of leakage of whatever tech there is.

 

[Figaro]

IMHO... I don't think China wants to tie J-35 itself with a foreign partner, but the FC-31 is still game as a next-gen export solution (with a partner). In other words, another FC-1 situation.

You never know ... imo the J-35 may just be what Pakistan needs and I think China would be willing to tie the J-35 with its number one ally. Think about the J-35 as being the analogue to the F-35 (exportable) and the J-20 to the F-22 (non exportable).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You never know ... imo the J-35 may just be what Pakistan needs and I think China would be willing to tie the J-35 with its number one ally. Think about the J-35 as being the analogue to the F-35 (exportable) and the J-20 to the F-22 (non exportable).

It wouldn't surprise me if the end result is that the J-31v2 demo splits into sub-families: a PLA-only carrier capable J-35 and a simpler J-35E/FC-31 for land-based ops and export.

I'd think it being literally the only non-ITAR NGFA on the market would fetch it way stronger sales prospects than the FC-1/JF-17. Coupled with the fact that China can offer its own loan faculty and the absolute dearth of alternatives of this type, could be a lucrative program.

 

[Figaro]

It wouldn't surprise me if the end result is that the J-31v2 demo splits into sub-families: a PLA-only carrier capable J-35 and a simpler J-35E/FC-31 for land-based ops and export.

I'd think it being literally the only non-ITAR NGFA on the market would fetch it way stronger sales prospects than the FC-1/JF-17. Coupled with the fact that China can offer its own loan faculty and the absolute dearth of alternatives of this type, could be a lucrative program.

I doubt a land based J-35 would be needed for the PLAAF given the J-20, which is the heavy air superiority fighter. But I agree the land based J-35 would be geared for export, quite possibly laying the foundation for the AZM.

Recently a Chinese member posted that it is confirmed that China will not allow any partner for J-35 program and considering that it is reported that AZM is supposed to be a clean sheet design, is it possible that China wishes to build another 5th gen fighter besides J-20 and J-35?
@araz @IblinI @Aamir Hussain @Quwa

Who said that ... I would be very surprised if this turned out to be true.

 

[_NOBODY_]

I doubt a land based J-35 would be needed for the PLAAF given the J-20, which is the heavy air superiority fighter. But I agree the land based J-35 would be geared for export, quite possibly laying the foundation for the AZM.


Who said that ... I would be very surprised if this turned out to be true.

Sorry, I don't remember and I can't find that post anymore.

 

[Armchair]

Sorry, I don't remember and I can't find that post anymore.

There is already rumour in Chinese forums regarding a third stealth plane by Chengdu. Let's see if this supposed insider info turns out true or not, but such a program would be a natural potential partner for the Azm.

 

[_NOBODY_]

There is already rumour in Chinese forums regarding a third stealth plane by Chengdu. Let's see if this supposed insider info turns out true or not, but such a program would be a natural potential partner for the Azm.

A single engine 5th fighter than can replace J-10 and become the new backbone of PLAAF would be great, while J-20 remains the main frontline fighter.

 

[HammerHead081]

Who are we kidding? We can't make a 5th gen jet on our own. We barely made JF17 ourselves which is a 4th gen jet, only make 54% of it if i remember correctly.

 

[Armchair]

A single engine 5th fighter than can replace J-10 and become the new backbone of PLAAF would be great, while J-20 remains the main frontline fighter.

Precisely. Something that makes sense and what I've been saying but some dinosaurs get all jumpy and go on a hissy fit over it.