Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[PeacefulWar]

A single engine 5th fighter than can replace J-10 and become the new backbone of PLAAF would be great, while J-20 remains the main frontline fighter.

It is possible!

 

[raahaat7]

$$$$$. 1 taraf tou har koi military budget ko rota hai, oper se har kisi ko next gen jets be chahiye. These programmes are super expensive, can't be done alone in our current state. Sure, with collaboration with China much can be achieved, but what ever the results will be it won't anything better than what China already has.

Something better than nothing.

First, whoever cries over military budget should be given a gun and sent to boarders. Laro shabash apni jang.

Secondly, yes these technogies are not cheap, but after development selling few aircrafts recovers all spent. And spinoff techs are a big ++. And then production for home, as per requirements is a big plus.

So you see.

Cudnt agree more.

We need to fall before we fly. We did not have any aviation/armaments experience in the 60s and hence our leaders are on record as having said" we can buy an atom bomb if India has made one". Post 65 we progressed on to over hauling and establishing our armaments industry. We built up on that experience and learnt how to design and modify simple aircrafts like Mashaq. We then progressed on to learning to design and then fly our own plane we the help of our Chinese brothers.
The reason to go back in history is to show that there is a history to our development. We may not be able to design our own 5th gen fighter but really we wont know till we make that effort. There was a recent interview from an Air Marshall who said we got some radios to incorporate into our Mirages in the 80s and could not do so. Do you think things are the same today? The PAF seems sure it can get the job done. Even if it cannot we will get a semi stealth fighter which will be improved subsequently.
The problem with buying of the shelf is you gain nothing from that capability. You are forever dependent on the supplier. I think we have beyond that stage into a new stage where we are not too bothered whether we get the 16s or not. We were initially desperate for any hand me downs that the Chinese/Russians could give us. Today we go and demand the best to incorporate into our platforms. Where the chinese or Russians cannot provide it we can incorporate EU Subsystems into our platform. Because of our efforts people are approaching us to be a part of our programmes. Would this have happened if we had just sat back and acquired the 16s. Sure the quality would have been better but we would have been forever dependent on them to use whatever they provide. Today we can go and demand from the Chinese brothers to provide us the PL15 and incorporate it on whichever platform that we want(16s excluded).
We should now strive for independence from providers and go for subsystem to improve our base platform.
A

Always love to read your posts. My 2 cents.

 

[LKJ86]

We will buy a smokey engine from China

What is "a smokey engine"?

 

[raahaat7]

Hi,

They stole it as much as they could---. Don't you hear the US congress getting mad at the chinese and Trump as well---. 5-10 years ago that used to be 'the news'.

Now stealing US technology and building on it are two different things---. You steal a gold coin from the Dragon's Tresure---that is one thing---but to spend it is another thing---.

The US Threated the chinese---" we know you stole our F35 technology and made an aircraft out of it---but if you proceeded any further than that we will destroy all your aircraft manufacturing factories "---.

That is why you don't see much of progress made on the J31 after the first flights---.

The americans have a unique habbit---if they want to---they would let you invest heavily into it till the last moment and then come down hard on you----.

China had to swallow the bitter pill---keep on playing with the J20---.

Now OTOH---if pakistan wants to do something with the J31---it will---pakistan is head strong enough if need be---.

Sir are u suggesting that even as china buckled under us threat, pakistan can go forward and do things with their weapon. Cant digest.

 

[The Eagle]

Sharing for the interest of readers. There's been a concept as following. Not to mention that the same pretty much resembles to alleged Azm in a tail art on one of PAF C-130 in RIAT.


Shenyang’s losing J-20 design Snow Owl is officially revealed
Posted on July 21, 2020


Shenyang’s losing submission for the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) stealth fighter competition has been revealed officially for the first time.

China Central Television (CCTV) has produced a second series of its documentary Memory of Military Industry – 军工记忆 – and in episode five, the subject was the Shenyang J-11.

In the video, viewers were taken to a gallery with models of aircraft in the hall. On the wall was the Snow Owl, Shenyang’s project name for the 4th generation fighter it had proposed to the military.

The aircraft has a main double delta wing with tailplane and the addition of canards at the front. The design philosophy then was to achieve maneuverability over stealth. The PLAAF had set a requirement for 60 degrees angle of attack, similar to the F-22. To reach the goal, the designer Li Tian chose the three-wing layout. It is said that the Snow Owl had an angle of attack of up to 65 degrees during wing tunnel testing.

However, the shape of the aircraft lead to several weaknesses. First, the selection of the double delta creates a possible reflector for radar returns on the leading edge. In order to have three sets of wings, the fuselage is much longer compared to the J-20. This lead to heavier weights and increase demands on the engines. To reduce the overall weight, engineers at Shenyang reduce the size of the radome. This size of the radar was therefore smaller compared to Chengdu’s winning design.

Alert 5
Military Aviation News

@LKJ86 any other details?

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir are u suggesting that even as china buckled under us threat, pakistan can go forward and do things with their weapon. Cant digest.

Hi,

Really---. You don't understand that---!!! I am surprised---.

US and pakistan has a long history of good times and bit-ching sessions---.

China never held that position ever---.

Whereas china is extremely conscientious of its position and trade deal---Pakistan otoh is an extremely suicidal nation---.

Pakistan has not done anything that would upset the US---.

But making a copy of the F35---10 years ago would have created a lots of problems for china---.

The chinese are a prudent group of people---then will only push so far---.

Why do you think they came with with Canards for their J20---knowing very well that canards increase the RCS and moves the design away from the true 5th gen stealth design---just so the US congress feels happy that the chinese had no comprehension of the 5th gen design---.

Now that both the sides have shown their hands---their is bad feeling in the open between the two---the chinese would divulge themselves into the "unknown" territory---.

 

[LKJ86]

Why do you think they came with with Canards for their J20---knowing very well that canards increase the RCS and moves the design away from the true 5th gen stealth design---just so the US congress feels happy that the chinese had no comprehension of the 5th gen design---.

The targets of J-20 are just US's F-22 and F-35, so why should China make US congress feel happy?

And USA NEVER lacks an excuse if needed.

Trump: ...Didn’t Powell say that Iraq had “weapons of mass destruction?” They didn’t, but off we went to WAR!

 

[LKJ86]

But making a copy of the F35---10 years ago would have created a lots of problems for china---.

Why should China be in a hurry to develop another 5th-generation fighter jet before J-20 is put into mass production?

FC-31 made its maiden flight in 2012, and has evolved into carrier-based J-35 that will make its maiden flight in 2021, and at that moment, J-20 with WS-10C engine is in mass production already.

 

[Indos]

Why should China be in a hurry to develop another 5th-generation fighter jet before J-20 is put into mass production?

FC-31 made its maiden flight in 2012, and has evolved into carrier-based J-35 that will make its maiden flight in 2021, and at that moment, J-20 with WS-10C engine is in mass production already.

No official statement said J 20 has used WS 10 C engine. Latest publication from respected Chinese newspaper said J20 still use Russian engine.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/mil...lth-fighter-goes-mass-production-after-thrust

 

[LKJ86]

No official statement said J 10 will use WS 10 C engine. Latest publication from respected Chinese newspaper said J20 still use Russian engine.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/mil...lth-fighter-goes-mass-production-after-thrust

@Deino

 

[Indos]

@Deino

I will believe it if Global Times said that J 20 has used Chinese engine (mass production-not flying test). If J20 has used Chinese engine, CCP will be very happy to say it to the Chinese public to show its achievement in jet engine technology. Just like how other government do it. Iran can be a good example of it

 

[Figaro]

I will believe it if Global Times said that J 20 has used Chinese engine (mass production-not flying test). If J20 has used Chinese engine, CCP will be very happy to say it to the Chinese public to show its achievement in jet engine technology. Just like how other government do it. Iran can be a good example of it

Please do not even read SCMP for PLA development. Their author Minnie Chan is an idiot who's articles are full of false information and contradictions (SCMP may be respected but Minnie Chan is an idiot). Just go to the Chinese defence forum section here at PDF. As for official statements, you shouldn't expect them. The Chinese don't usually brag of their military developments ... which is why they are very secretive (this has been noted by Western media for a very long time now). But as @LKJ86 said, production models of J-20s and J-10Cs have been fitted with Chinese engines for over a year now. Please view the Chinese engine thread or the J-10/J-20 threads if you want to see photographic confirmation for yourself.

https://defence.pk/pdf/forums/chinese-defence-forum.54/

Edit: Here is a Global Times article about it. I wouldn't trust Global Times for Chinese military developments either. The author seems oblivious to the fact that the WS-10 was installed on the J-20 production units before the J-10. But either-way here it is.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1181486.shtml

J-20 production model with WS-10X.

What is "a smokey engine"?

He is referring to the FC-31 at the 2014 Zhuhai show, whose RD-33 engines suffered from incomplete combustion (leaving black smoke exhaust). IIRC, the smokiness was fixed after switching to the WS-13.

 

[nomi007]

Pak have to also monitor KFX project.

 

[Indos]

Pak have to also monitor KFX project.
View attachment 653922

According to our Korean friend, dr knowhow, that is FASS which is the laser guided assembly demonstrator. FASS is the name of the technique. FASS (Fuselage Automated Splice System)

A system that automatically puts together the separately assembled front and back bodies,
with the center fuselage in the middle, by providing the positioner with FWD, CRT, and AFT through LGV

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It is possible!

J

In reality it may take 2 decades to make it operational, by that time 6th gen jets would be introduced.
I always wanted Pakistan to improve incrementally. Its difficult togo from JF17 to 5th gen. Instead we should have focused on a 4.5++ gen, with stealth properties. Something that could replace F16s. Call it a JF19, a medium weight fighter with higher payload and endurance. We could have an integrated network with JF17 and other ground and air assets. We could have instead bought 5th gen from china. Combining all the knowledge of our own 4.5++ and a chinese 5th gen, we could then proceed to a 6th gen indigenous fighter.

this route might actually take place which you have suggested
as we will experience both the successes and hurdles in our project and since JF 17 program is also live along with AZM so there will be cross overs that will materialize and transfer to later blocks of JF17s