Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Armchair]

After a lot of thinking, I've come to the conclusion that the Azm project has the following possibilities:

1. Conventional layout, twin engine
2. Conventional layout, single engine
3. Delta canard, twin engine
4. Delta canard, Single engine

1. cannot make sense as a cleansheet design as it makes more sense to go with the J-35. Why reinvent the wheel?
4. For similar reasons, 4 doesn't make sense as one can simply go with a stealthy J-10 design, which Chengdu could churn out easily.

This means that the possiblity of 2 and 3 are higher than 1 and 4. Someone was making a point that since Pakistan doesn't have much experience with designing aircraft, it is less likely they will go with a design that they have little experience with. Which means that (2) may be the option of least resistance, and what Occam's Razor would suggest.

Since a conventional layout with a single engine aircraft, that is designed to replace the F-16s, has to be more than the JF-17, perhaps it could be based on a larger engine and airframe. Being powered by something like the WS-10 / WS-15.

Just thinking aloud, don't shoot me for it.

 

[PeacefulWar]

After a lot of thinking, I've come to the conclusion that the Azm project has the following possibilities:

1. Conventional layout, twin engine
2. Conventional layout, single engine
3. Delta canard, twin engine
4. Delta canard, Single engine

1. cannot make sense as a cleansheet design as it makes more sense to go with the J-35. Why reinvent the wheel?
4. For similar reasons, 4 doesn't make sense as one can simply go with a stealthy J-10 design, which Chengdu could churn out easily.

This means that the possiblity of 2 and 3 are higher than 1 and 4. Someone was making a point that since Pakistan doesn't have much experience with designing aircraft, it is less likely they will go with a design that they have little experience with. Which means that (2) may be the option of least resistance, and what Occam's Razor would suggest.

Since a conventional layout with a single engine aircraft, that is designed to replace the F-16s, has to be more than the JF-17, perhaps it could be based on a larger engine and airframe. Being powered by something like the WS-10 / WS-15.

Just thinking aloud, don't shoot me for it.

We don't even know whether PAF is working with China for its 5g fighter, ain't we?

 

[Indos]

KFX/IFX single engine design and use F16 base design. This is the proposal from KAI that later is rejected. KFX/IFX then uses C 103 design that is developed by ADD Korea and PT Dirgantara Indonesia with two engines. C 103 design then evolves into final C 109 design.

 

[khanmubashir]

The technologies being developed for azm should be tested out in other platforms like Lockheed used f16 to test dsi for f35

The Stealth design be first checked on smaller cheaper drone prototype instead of a manned plane prototype from get go

The engine and radar tech may be tested on if17 variant or MCA based upon it by this we would also have Stealth drones along with jets and also augmented fourth generation jets

Like USA latter employed aesa radars derived from 5 G to 4G jets

Economy of scale would reduce per unit cost due to high commonality

 

[Indos]

JF 17 Stealth design may look like this

 

[Deino]

We don't even know whether PAF is working with China for its 5g fighter, ain't we?

I think it is much too early to come to any conclusions what configuration the PAF will chose and as such all these claims "I know it" are at best fan-boy talks or premature guesswork.

Let's wait and see if the go alone (IMO unlikely), if they cooperate with China (IMO the only reasonable solution) or with other partners (IMO unlikely) ... but until we get some true facts surely a lot of water will flow down many rivers.

JF 17 Stealth design may look like this

IMO there will never be a stealth JF-17 since it does not make sens for a lightweight type.

 

[Armchair]

We don't even know whether PAF is working with China for its 5g fighter, ain't we?

According to messiach Pakistan is working with one foreign partner, which is generally believed to be Chengdu.

XXXXXX

Interesting article:


Project AZM


A successor to the JF-17 program to provide an affordable lightweight modern fighter, Project AZM is likely to undercut the operational and acquisition costs of all other fifth generation fighters and be marketed primarily to third world clients. The fighter is the only single engine stealth fighter currently under development other than the American F-35, and is currently being jointly developed by China and Pakistan to replace the JF-17 Thunder in production. The aircraft will integrate advanced AESA radars, more sophisticated and likely much heavier than those recently integrated onto the ‘4+ generation’ JF-17 Block 3, and will be compatible with next generation munitions including the PL-15 and possibly the PL-XX. While it is being designed primarily for export, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force may acquire the jet in limited numbers to replace the advanced J-7 variants currently in service - with its unique combination of next generation technologies and low maintenance and operational costs making it highly valued.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...manned-fighters-h-20-stealth-bombers-and-more

KFX/IFX single engine design and use F16 base design. This is the proposal from KAI that later is rejected. KFX/IFX then uses C 103 design that is developed by ADD Korea and PT Dirgantara Indonesia with two engines. C 103 design then evolves into final C 109 design.

Where did you get that CG? I like it...

 

[Deino]

...
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...manned-fighters-h-20-stealth-bombers-and-more

You know that this site is one of the least reliable ones around!?

This image alone says everything:

Since it is well know to be a fan-made model only. Even the modeller himself explained and admitted this but still some fan-boys and stupid pages like this above take if for granted and spin their hyped conclusions from it.

 

[Indos]

Where did you get that CG? I like it...

According to the information on the picture, it was from ADD Korea. That design is derived from KAI KFX-E design that is published by KAI.

http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2013/07/kai-publishes-small-kf-x-concept.html

 

[Deino]

PS: I really don't understand why some still think this is real and even more why discussing this again and again?

The model is well known to be was made by a military enthusiast named “yes413” before 2016 and we even have a thread on it here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf17-6-and-jf20-are-self-made-models-for-military-enthusiasts.594338/

 

[PeacefulWar]

I think it is much too early to come to any conclusions what configuration the PAF will chose and as such all these claims "I know it" are at best fan-boy talks or premature guesswork.

Let's wait and see if the go alone (IMO unlikely), if they cooperate with China (IMO the only reasonable solution) or with other partners (IMO unlikely) ... but until we get some true facts surely a lot of water will flow down many rivers.




IMO there will never be a stealth JF-17 since it does not make sens for a lightweight type.

It will be interesting to wait for the final news.
If it's based/related to FC-31, then PAF will works with a new partner SAC instead of the old friend CAC.
If PAF stick with CAC, then it means they have to design a new fighter from scratch and PLAAF is unlikely to purchase them(if those FC-31 based J-35 rumors are true) . Which will make the fighter too expensive because of the small number.

 

[Armchair]

According to the information on the picture, it was from ADD Korea. That design is derived from KAI KFX-E design that is published by KAI.

http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2013/07/kai-publishes-small-kf-x-concept.html

Thanks for sharing, the aircraft looks stunning in the other picture. PAF likes its birds with a single engine and has no experience with delta canards. So, this may turn out to be relatively close in the end.

This though suggests twin engines, which takes us to the other options - J-35 derivative or delta canard twin.

According to the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) it is a “twin-engine single-seater, boasting the likes of super-cruise and laser weapons (directed energy weapons).”

https://www.researchsnipers.com/pak...fifth-generation-stealth-fighter-jet-program/

 

[DrWatson775]

After a lot of thinking, I've come to the conclusion that the Azm project has the following possibilities:

1. Conventional layout, twin engine
2. Conventional layout, single engine
3. Delta canard, twin engine
4. Delta canard, Single engine

1. cannot make sense as a cleansheet design as it makes more sense to go with the J-35. Why reinvent the wheel?
4. For similar reasons, 4 doesn't make sense as one can simply go with a stealthy J-10 design, which Chengdu could churn out easily.

This means that the possiblity of 2 and 3 are higher than 1 and 4. Someone was making a point that since Pakistan doesn't have much experience with designing aircraft, it is less likely they will go with a design that they have little experience with. Which means that (2) may be the option of least resistance, and what Occam's Razor would suggest.

Since a conventional layout with a single engine aircraft, that is designed to replace the F-16s, has to be more than the JF-17, perhaps it could be based on a larger engine and airframe. Being powered by something like the WS-10 / WS-15.

Just thinking aloud, don't shoot me for it.

I like your thinking.
If supercruise is a requirement then twin engines will be the way to go. The currently available engines for use may make that difficult.

 

[Armchair]

I like your thinking.
If supercruise is a requirement then twin engines will be the way to go. The currently available engines for use may make that difficult.

Thanks. There are a few engine options now (unlike during the JF-17 development program). There is the WS-19 and the WS-15. You could have two of the first or a single WS-15. The latter is the more mature engine, I'd think, given its going into the J-20. Hui Tong on his site notes:
"The latest rumor (September 2019) claimed that J-20 (J-20B?) was ready to test the newly integrated WS-15 turbofan engine."

 

[Deino]

It will be interesting to wait for the final news.
If it's based/related to FC-31, then PAF will works with a new partner SAC instead of the old friend CAC.
If PAF stick with CAC, then it means they have to design a new fighter from scratch and PLAAF is unlikely to purchase them(if those FC-31 based J-35 rumors are true) . Which will make the fighter too expensive because of the small number.

Exactly on point and even more my concerns. I cannot think that yet another fifth generation type by CAC could be developed and founded by Pakistan alone, when China has the FC-31 or as it seems J-35 in the making.
But again, we'll see.