Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Falcon26]

Anyways, it's high time we Pakistanis get our heads out of the sand.

You take one look at the Indian sub-forum, and you'll see them working on hypersonic glide vehicles, drones, their own FGFA (with clear proof of design work, wind-tunnel testing, etc), and many of the inputs. Likewise, they have foreign companies willing to enter and compete for Indian experts (which, ironically, might be the only thing now to slow India from advancing its own work -- brain drain).

I don't know why we can't just accept the facts and think critically.

This habit of playing ourselves up while blindly discounting India over ridiculously little things (like nabbing pigeons or tiny diplomatic shortfalls) is killing us. It's embarrassing, childish and shameful behavior.

We don't have our own equivalent to CAG to inquire why we bought VT4s from China while HIT is rolling out under capacity, or why the expertise for flight control tech wasn't built when we started the Super-7 program, etc.

Instead, when anyone questions it and brings a contrarian point-of-view, we get emotional outbursts that parrot a narrative, but are absent of any real facts.

I hate to say it, but day by day, Pakistan is seeming less like an actual country, and more of an uncle's club for wasting public funds and selling lies.


1 of 2 outcomes:

1. We signed onto the FC-31/J-35, and will manufacture a % of the fighter in Pakistan. The critical stuff (electronics, etc) will be built by Chinese companies in Pakistan, while the rest we'll cover. And we'll export these parts back to China for use by the PLAAF and/or PLAN as an offset agreement.

2. It's an original design, but the Chinese will set-up shop at SEZs to supply the inputs (including engine, radar, etc) drawing on as much local content as possible. And re-export those inputs back to China.

You bring up important points. Pakistan and Pakistanis have been lucky in the sense that Indians have historically been incompetent and as a result Pakistan has shrewdly maneuvered to contain India. The dysfunctional bureaucracy in India also aided Pakistan as did India’s horrible project Managment capacities. But at some point India will resolve these issues, maybe not within the next 5-10 years, but certainly sometime. In the meantime, Pakistan hasn’t been investing in critical technologies (Hyper glide weapons, Hypersonic missiles, space technology etc etc) yes Pakistan has expertly used its limited resources but that’s still no excuse. Accountability and independence audit of Pakistan military is still a no go zone; and frankly even though as a smaller power, Pakistan shouldn’t open itself up to such scrutiny but the military isn’t even doing such things in house. There’s been many military contracts Pakistan has signed in recent years that have raised eyebrows.

Firstly, excellent post! This post should be required reading for anyone posting in any technical thread on this forum.

Secondly, allow me to speculate as to why we like to do these things:
1. Secrecy: We've had a number of successful programs that were run in secrecy and revealed to great fanfare of our people. While this is great for various reasons, this gives us a lazy man's defense of "oh there's a secret program working on this, it's so advanced". You can't argue/debate with the "secret" argument. I can start claiming right now that PAC has developed all the requisite technologies in secret and there's nothing anyone can say to disprove this.
2. On some deep level we know we are lacking in several areas. We are so horrified by this that we will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to ensure that we don't have to face the ugly truth of many things.
3. International Pandemic of Dangerous Nationalism. We have our fair share of people that will praise and accept everything Pakistani, however flawed it is. This is happening everywhere in the world so not surprised it would happen here as well. Ironically, it is this intentional self-blinding that hurts us more than any other deficiencies we may have.

You have been such a wonderful addition to this forum. It’s been truly a pleasure reading your posts these past few days. Please do continue to post. Many members, including myself, benefit from your insightful analysis.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You bring up important points. Pakistan and Pakistanis have been lucky in the sense that Indians have historically been incompetent and as a result Pakistan has shrewdly maneuvered to contain India. The dysfunctional bureaucracy in India also aided Pakistan as did India’s horrible project Managment capacities. But at some point India will resolve these issues, maybe not within the next 5-10 years, but certainly sometime. In the meantime, Pakistan hasn’t been investing in critical technologies (Hyper glide weapons, Hypersonic missiles, space technology etc etc) yes Pakistan has expertly used its limited resources but that’s still no excuse. Accountability and independence audit of Pakistan military is still a no go zone; and frankly even though as a smaller power, Pakistan shouldn’t open itself up to such scrutiny but the military isn’t even doing such things in house. There’s been many military contracts Pakistan has signed in recent years that have raised eyebrows.

Part of it is the fact that there are internal faults (spies, etc), which is a reason why they guard information and aren't open to scrutiny. But that same guarding is also protecting those faults, you can't expose them either.

The way I look at it is that Pakistan is like a sick company, and that it has a lot of deadweight in the form of poorly defined processes, broken systems (e.g., the provinces), and too many unaccountable people (esp. in the gov't or civil bureaucracy, and sadly, now increasingly in the armed forces).

You need a new establishment with fangs/a stick to set everything back in line. It can't be a general, nor can it be a politician. It must be someone from outside who everyone just agrees to empower and clear the house. That's their job, and if they don't do it, you find someone else for that role.

 

[Falcon26]

Part of it is the fact that there are internal faults (spies, etc), which is a reason why they guard information and aren't open to scrutiny. But that same guarding is also protecting those faults, you can't expose them either.

The way I look at it is that Pakistan is like a sick company, and that it has a lot of deadweight in the form of poorly defined processes, broken systems (e.g., the provinces), and too many unaccountable people (esp. in the gov't or civil bureaucracy, and sadly, now increasingly in the armed forces).

You need a new establishment with fangs/a stick to set everything back in line. It can't be a general, nor can it be a politician. It must be someone from outside who everyone just agrees to empower and clear the house. That's their job, and if they don't do it, you find someone else for that role.

I couldn’t agree more. Ideally, the Supreme Court could have played this role. But it seems to be stuffed by small with huge savior egos that are incapable of doing such a job. I agree a general would be the absolute worst option. Even if Pakistan cleans up its lower courts, that will go a very long way. The PIA is the most glaring example of political and judicial failures of the Pakistani state.

 

[Armchair]

We can debate about the reasons for the failure of the LCA program to provide IAF with a JF-17 like solution on another thread. I'd rather not derail the Azm thread. You said "the only indigenous thing in Tejas is the aerodynamic design and flight control software" like those are small things. Those are huge things. Those are things PAC could not and has not done for the JF-17. Your statement should tell you why I am saying the Indian aerospace industry is more advanced than ours. Furthermore, LCA wasn't the only (or even the main) basis for my claim of their aero industry being more advanced than ours. You should look at all the work they do (however troubled) in turbojets, materials, manufacturing, composites, GNC, electronics. There are 100s of things they do in India that we do not do in Pakistan. You can't remain oblivious to this. Let's not even begin to compare ISRO to SUPARCO. Finally, look at all the books by Indian (living and working in India) authors on aerospace subjects. You will be hard-pressed to find any by Pakistanis. This is because we don't have expertise. We just have the bare minimum amount of expertise in closed off strategic organizations that only benefit very specific projects. Hardly an "industry".


Of course PAC has a lot of capabilities. No denying that. I didn't say PAC had NO ability. I think you misunderstood my post. I was trying to prepare us forumers and the nation for a long and difficult road ahead for Project Azm.


You're right I cannot. And I don't know if anyone in Pakistan can. Three countries in the world (USA, China, Russia) can envision such a project. So there are bound to be a lot of teething problems because we won't know what we need when we start. Also, PAC isn't as closed off as you're saying it should be with regards to Azm. PAC has held several "open meetings" with SPD engineers and universities discussing their goals and problems, and asking for help in various areas.


You just presented an excellent summary of my post and yet you are disagreeing with me on something, of which I am unsure of now. Is the comparison with LCA problematic to you? I agree PAC is directly controlled by PAF and that smooths out a lot of red-tape but also keep in mind that Project Azm appears to be (don't know if true) a PAF only project and not a national project (like the nuclear program). A PAF only project can be cancelled for lack of funds/results or due to delays.

Just a suggestion: Please be respectful. There is no need to use phrases like "absolute hogwash" and "you are screaming". I am patient with, and respect all posters, and expect the same in return.



This might be an unpopular opinion on this forum, especially coming from someone with Indian flags but this is the truth.

*Gets called traitor in 3...2...1..* lol

LCA is a french design and the FBW is also french. @Bilal Khan 777 testified to this with his own eyes in France.

 

[JamD]

LCA is a french design and the FBW is also french. @Bilal Khan 777 testified to this with his own eyes in France.

I am not so sure about that. Significant French help may be there but at the very least their hardware for the FBW is local.

 

[Armchair]

here is what I think makes sense. Just my opinion of what is within grasp tech wise and what PAF requirement is.

Keeping in view that the Azm is to replace the F-16, and match India across the border, this is what I would go with:

1. A LO delta canard. Twin engines (WSXX/ WS-13 / RD-93 replacement).
2. A small internal weapons bay for 2 PL-15s
3. Two additional semi-recessed pylons
4. Additional regular clip on / clip off hardpoints

The delta canard is approximately 20% more efficient than the conventional layout. Meaning, if you tried to make a gripen equivalent in an F-16 layout with the Gripen engine, you'd fall short performance wise approximately 20%.

Now, you can call this a 6th gen in the sense that the idea of being invisible to radar was in fact a fad and modern fighters cannot be invisible to modern radar networks. For good measure, you can add supercruise and some laser directed weapon system, or capacity for the same.

I personally don't see this as something beyond Pak - Chengdu capability.

 

[Ace of Spades]

You will be hard-pressed to find any by Pakistanis. This is because we don't have expertise. We just have the bare minimum amount of expertise in closed off strategic organizations that only benefit very specific projects. Hardly an "industry".

Not that Pakistan doesn't have people who are not experts or competent enough; it's that those competent in any field are pushed out and replaced by ones who are incompetent ... there is no retainment of bright minds. Here is the list of suparco chairmen since it's inception. It's a long sad tale of Pakistan in one picture.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Not that Pakistan doesn't have people who are not experts or competent enough; it's that those competent in any field are pushed out and replaced by ones who are incompetent ... there is no retainment of bright minds. Here is the list of suparco chairmen since it's inception. It's a long sad tale of Pakistan in one picture.

View attachment 636069

From PHD to BS ... that is a sad tale

 

[Yaseen1]

j31 should be better option if project azm is facing difficulty,hoping that china agrees to develop export version of this jet

 

[Trango Towers]

There is a lot of negativity on this thread. The main reason is the lack of project Azm information.
Sure design work and prototype testing on jf17 block 3 is done in china but rest assured pak scientists and engineers are there assisting and partaking. I know this for a fact.
Just because we dont know what's happening doesnt mean there is nothing happening. Pakistan has a habbit of surprising. Look at jf17B. We git the news when a whole bunch arrived for squadron integration. So relax and let the people get on with it.

 

[The Maverick]

Question

Is project azm purchase of the Chinese j31 with specific changes to paf needs in which case you are half way there and could see this in 2025 or 2030 as license build in Pac.

Or

A brand new design in which case you have to part fund this even.if most work.is done in chengdu and if so what cost to.you and time scales slip to 2035 2040

I think it's j31 with minor changes and you buy it from China. Is mist likely otherwise the cost of financing a real fifth gen even 50% is horrendous and time consuming

 

[Trango Towers]

Question

Is project azm purchase of the Chinese j31 with specific changes to paf needs in which case you are half way there and could see this in 2025 or 2030 as license build in Pac.

Or

A brand new design in which case you have to part fund this even.if most work.is done in chengdu and if so what cost to.you and time scales slip to 2035 2040

I think it's j31 with minor changes and you buy it from China. Is mist likely otherwise the cost of financing a real fifth gen even 50% is horrendous and time consuming

No the pic on the Hercules had canards

 

[The Raven]

LCA is a french design and the FBW is also french. @Bilal Khan 777 testified to this with his own eyes in France.

The aerodynamic design of the LCA was done by Dassualt, the FCS was developed with the help of Lockheed Martin utilising the leverage of the F-16XL experience. When the Indians tested their nukes in the late 90s, their team working with LockMart in the US had to leave due to the imposition of embargoes and they had to continue developing the FCS on their own, which was one of the many numerous why the project is so late.

Not that Pakistan doesn't have people who are not experts or competent enough; it's that those competent in any field are pushed out and replaced by ones who are incompetent ... there is no retainment of bright minds. Here is the list of suparco chairmen since it's inception. It's a long sad tale of Pakistan in one picture.

View attachment 636069

One only has to look at how Pakistan treated its own Nobel prize winning physicist Adbus Salam, because he was an Ahmadi, to realise the mentality which prevails. There's a reason why many people are surprised Pakistan still even exists to this day.

 

[Trango Towers]

The aerodynamic design of the LCA was done by Dassualt, the FCS was developed with the help of Lockheed Martin utilising the leverage of the F-16XL experience. When the Indians tested their nukes in the late 90s, their team working with LockMart in the US had to leave due to the imposition of embargoes and they had to continue developing the FCS on their own, which was one of the many numerous why the project is so late.



One only has to look at how Pakistan treated its own Nobel prize winning physicist Adbus Salam, because he was an Ahmadi, to realise the mentality which prevails. There's a reason why many people are surprised Pakistan still even exists to this day.

Of a man is Ahmadi of whatever faith he chooses. The white stripe in our flag is their equal right as a citizen of this nation. I am ashamed when I hear such stuff. We should look after every Pakistani regardless of colour religion race etc.
Allah gives hadiyat. We are not Allah and hence have no right to judge or persecute.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

General question, is the JF-17 a 4th generation or 4.5 generation fighter jet?