What's new

Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

I wanna see project azm something like this beast. Stealth and long range
dil ki baat ki hai...
but reality is they introduce touch screen in local grocery store in 1995 which we havent seen in Pakistan any local story even big chains using old till. difference between 3rd and 1st world we have too much techonology gap even lets say we have all those tech we dont have experties to use it.
 
.
Just look at these pictures
 

Attachments

  • yf232.jpg
    48.7 KB · Views: 135
  • yf-231.jpg
    34.8 KB · Views: 117
  • YF-23.jpg
    38.4 KB · Views: 112
. .
I heard Pakistanis are also banned from some disciplines but then again that ban might have been lifted as most only come to seek job and nationalities and not really keen on studying physics and math.
Yes. The ban is still there. Its actually somewhat common for people working in the strategic organizations to have a BSc from top level foreign Unis, including Ivy League and Oxbridge, but to have Master and PHD from Pakistan.
 
.
I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future

All we know as of yet is all about students in different universities are taking part in different studies. Lastly, saw a group that came up with most secure and advance processing chipset of military grade. I think, currently no one is labeling a specific lot as destined for Aviation City PAC Kamra/AZM.

I do agree that bans may follow knowing our ambition and as odds aren't in our favour in West/US. However, still if the few make it back excluding deserters, this is still a starter. In local area, heard that we are moving ahead however with bit slow speed & pace due to our own issues/economy but the foundation is set to build it up. Local Infrastructure isn't yet on the mark of International Level but however, local studies & labs are set for good start.

The program is set to be strategical importance and of national interest so I don't think the support will ever discontinue regardless of any government.
 
.
Call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel all of the below are related to Project Azm (which has merged with TFX):

1.Pakistan, Turkey to allow dual nationality for their citizens
www.thenews.com.pk/amp/607844-pakistan-turkey-to-allow-dual-nationality-for-their-citizens
2. Thanks to @Zulfiqar
Screenshot_20200221-085757_WhatsApp.jpg

3. 4.Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has launched an office in Pakistan to boost its profile in the South Asian country. TAI announced the opening of the office on 24 December. TAI said the office is based within Pakistan's National Science & Technology Park (NSTP)
https://www.janes.com/article/93426/turkish-aerospace-opens-pakistan-office

I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future

All I know is that they've hired a very large number of fresh and experienced engineers on competitive salaries.
Sending students abroad is a dumb idea I feel. The kind of students that take these schemes are mostly just looking for a way out of Pakistan. Instead you should have policies to attract students ALREADY abroad to come back to Pakistan to work. More carrot less stick. This is what China and India do. One of my indian friends in university was visited by "someone" from India, making him an offer to move back to India but he refused because he isnt the uber nationalist modi loving type. We on the other hand think that if we send poor and desperate students abroad they will come back to Pakistan because they signed a piece of paper. Doesn't work that way.

From personal experience: We spend scarce taxpayer money on "faculty developement" and crap like that where incompetent people are sent abroad. These people are incompetent before and after their experience and not motivated to do anything. On the other hand motivated people who would go out of their way to work in Pakistan, who manage their own higher education are given absolutely horrendous pays when they return to Pakistan. One guy I know when he complained to HR at Air university about his low pay (UK educated guy) their reply was please quit well hire a local grad at less than what were paying you. They were paying him 55k. Money will be better spent on human resource attraction and retention than sending people abroad. Trust me theres a very large number of people who would love the opportunity to work in Pakistan if only they were given enough salaries that they could survive at least.
 
.
Call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel all of the below are related to Project Azm (which has merged with TFX):

1.Pakistan, Turkey to allow dual nationality for their citizens
www.thenews.com.pk/amp/607844-pakistan-turkey-to-allow-dual-nationality-for-their-citizens
2. Thanks to @Zulfiqar View attachment 607473
3. 4.Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has launched an office in Pakistan to boost its profile in the South Asian country. TAI announced the opening of the office on 24 December. TAI said the office is based within Pakistan's National Science & Technology Park (NSTP)
https://www.janes.com/article/93426/turkish-aerospace-opens-pakistan-office
Still no word of the 13 contracts signed during erdogan visit ? Civil+Mil(Possibly) totaling to 13
 
.
Still no word of the 13 contracts signed during erdogan visit ? Civil+Mil(Possibly) totaling to 13
I wouldn't grasp at straws either. Not everything is about defence (even though we are on a defence forum lol). Maybe there's one about defence. We'll know when we know.
 
.
As one of those who had gone abroad for attainment of higher education, and has degrees from two top 20 universities. I can attest to the fact that merely sending kids abroad to get a degree is a recipe for disaster atleast at the bachelors and masters level. The greatest amount of learning happens when that person works in the industry and comes out of the theoretical world of the academia.

.
this is one I am talking about
by students I don't mean typical young impressionable bachelors who will be enticing by the lure of the west lifestyle and forget their purpose.
but actually serving personnel of PAF and other civil industry serving personal who are going their as a part of career development and project advancement. anyone else will just vanish and never come back.

As one of those who had gone abroad for attainment of higher education, and has degrees from two top 20 universities. I can attest to the fact that merely sending kids abroad to get a degree is a recipe for disaster atleast at the bachelors and masters level. The greatest amount of learning happens when that person works in the industry and comes out of the theoretical world of the academia.

Therefore, I liked what someone suggested here of trying to attract Pakistani talent that is abroad to come in and serve the nation. However, for that attitudes and pay scales would have to change. A friend of mine did go back for the love of motherland and he had to work extra hard for his employers and co-workers to accept him because they view someone returning from abroad as an outsider and/or privileged. Some degree of enviousness may also have a part to play. The pay scales are also beyond pathetic.

Literally the entirety of world's scientific knowledge is now available online and you do not have to send an army of "best and brightest" abroad for them to attain it. Just need to identify subject-matter-experts in the academia in each field and give them big budgets and large talented teams. There is no reason that we cannot attain atleast Turkish level of technology in the short-term. However, there has to be strict accountability of performance and budgets for any project to progress.

More specifically for this AZM project, I do not know what the structure is but typically in a project like multiple facets of the plane would be subdivided into teams such as structural and airframe, thermodynamics, avionics and controls with an overarching umbrella that oversees all teams and ensures coordination. I do not know if Pakistan has even identified a project director to manage the project. Itni araam se nahi bun jata 5th gen fighter.
this is nicely narrated
I cant add anything further
 
.
this is one I am talking about
by students I don't mean typical young impressionable bachelors who will be enticing by the lure of the west lifestyle and forget their purpose.
but actually serving personnel of PAF and other civil industry serving personal who are going their as a part of career development and project advancement. anyone else will just vanish and never come back.


this is nicely narrated
I cant add anything further

You are missing some key information. I wish to add to your pool of information, to help you update your world view.

During Musharraf's time when USAID PhD scholarships were in full effect, a group of Pakistani students ran an experiment. In the interview for USAID, they were asked questions such as 'How do you think you can help with America's perception in Pakistan' etc. One of them gave extremely confrontational answers such as 'American needs to help itself if it wants to improve its perception in Pakistan' etc. The others gave the obvious answers. I learnt this first hand from one of the students who gave the 'obvious answers': "As I was leaving the meeting room, the door started shutting behind me. The committee, thinking the door has completely shut, started their evaluation while the door was open just a crack. This is what I heard: 'He seems to have the kind of mind that we can mold...'". And so we have first hand proof, right from the horse's mouth: they are looking for weak, subservient minds that they can mold. The significant thing is that this is the FIRST thing they discussed. For a PhD program where one has to display intellectual capacity, creativity, depth of knowledge in one's field, a yearning for research and learning, they VERY FIRST thing they evaluated as soon as they thought the candidate is out of earshot, was ability to mold the mind.

The guy who gave confrontational answers did not make it. Let me assure you he is outstandingly smart, with an excellent academic record, and deserved the scholarship as much as any other candidate. The others who got selected were called for an orientation. The contents of the 'orientation' included information such as 'In America, if a girl wants to kiss you, you cannot deny her', as well as dancing lessons. Then they were invited to the American embassy for an evening where wine was openly available and they were expected to show how much they have learnt from the orientation.

And this will not change even if you send professionals from armed forces. You think professionals from armed forces aren't looking for a way out of Pakistan? How about the topmost generals whose kids are studying or living abroad? Don't we all agree these generals are a security risk? Even I being a civilian have run into well connected individuals who try to guage me by bad mouthing Pakistan. This is a key test to see how sincere somebody is to Pakistan. As soon as they find someone willing to work against their own country, they start to groom them. This is exactly what will happen to those professionals you send. You used to be the 'Counter terrorism expert' on the forum. Surely you understand all the implications? Or are you looking for a way out yourself?

Here is a proposal on how to build capacity within Pakistan. First let us identify the root cause of our backwardness. It is under-developed intellectual capacity. Our education system is geared towards memorization and regurgitation. The students realize much of what they are learning won't be used in the industry. There is actually no 'industry' for graduates of electrical, electronic, mechanical, and other types of engineering. Most of them already know they will be doing computer programming. Others will move on to an MBA degree. Many others will end up in a career that has nothing to do with engineering.

The very first step towards progress is the establishment of workplaces where people realize they have to put their academic knowledge to use. Their induction, continuation, and progress in organizational hierarchy depend on actually applying their graduate knowledge, and improving upon it through personal initiative. This means having managers and team leads who demand this attitude. These organizations will have to be numerous enough, and we will need a lead time until our society wakes up and realizes the importance of actually acquiring knowledge during graduate degrees.

What our workplaces expect and demand of us goes a long way in shaping us as a society. This is also true for military organizations such as POF, NESCOM, etc. Don't be fooled by successes such as Shaheen and Raad. These organizations are full of the poorest outputs from Pakistani institutions. I have friends who have worked on simulators. These guys tell horror stories about the code base developed for these simulators. And the sad aspect is that these horror stories reflect poor understanding of the programming language they were using, along with poor understanding of software development itself, and project management. The attitude of project leaders is application of manual, laborious, brute force measures to keep things working. There is no culture of sitting back and learning from own mistakes. No culture of reading journals or news articles and trying to apply best practices. By the way, this information is now pretty old. Hopefully things have changed for the better.

The road towards progress leads through the toiling fields of self-realization, and self-improvement. I am confident that if attitudes change in the leadership, at least our military organizations can embrace a cultural shift.

By the way, I am not opposed to attracting talent from abroad, per proposals from @syed1 @JamD and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) but they cannot comprise the main workforce of Azm. They can bring in special expertise in some areas, but in order to achieve the ambitions of Azm, we need to rise as a nation from within.
 
. .
Call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel all of the below are related to Project Azm (which has merged with TFX):

1.Pakistan, Turkey to allow dual nationality for their citizens
www.thenews.com.pk/amp/607844-pakistan-turkey-to-allow-dual-nationality-for-their-citizens
2. Thanks to @Zulfiqar
View attachment 607474
3. 4.Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has launched an office in Pakistan to boost its profile in the South Asian country. TAI announced the opening of the office on 24 December. TAI said the office is based within Pakistan's National Science & Technology Park (NSTP)
https://www.janes.com/article/93426/turkish-aerospace-opens-pakistan-office



All I know is that they've hired a very large number of fresh and experienced engineers on competitive salaries.
Sending students abroad is a dumb idea I feel. The kind of students that take these schemes are mostly just looking for a way out of Pakistan. Instead you should have policies to attract students ALREADY abroad to come back to Pakistan to work. More carrot less stick. This is what China and India do. One of my indian friends in university was visited by "someone" from India, making him an offer to move back to India but he refused because he isnt the uber nationalist modi loving type. We on the other hand think that if we send poor and desperate students abroad they will come back to Pakistan because they signed a piece of paper. Doesn't work that way.

From personal experience: We spend scarce taxpayer money on "faculty developement" and crap like that where incompetent people are sent abroad. These people are incompetent before and after their experience and not motivated to do anything. On the other hand motivated people who would go out of their way to work in Pakistan, who manage their own higher education are given absolutely horrendous pays when they return to Pakistan. One guy I know when he complained to HR at Air university about his low pay (UK educated guy) their reply was please quit well hire a local grad at less than what were paying you. They were paying him 55k. Money will be better spent on human resource attraction and retention than sending people abroad. Trust me theres a very large number of people who would love the opportunity to work in Pakistan if only they were given enough salaries that they could survive at least.

More update on the same. Better that they get hired by the Turkish companies rather than brain drain to West.


As for sending students abroad. If required will write about it vaguely in another thread based on my experience of observing SPS types first hand (my family worked in such org and I lived in such places for 15+ yrs).

Long story short, it was need of the hour 18-20 yrs ago when our universities' output wasn't that much relative to what there is now.

What we need to ponder upon is that the lot then hired is reaching DCM level positions now. The future direction will be set by them and we will come to know whether the strat org made the right bet back then.

Further, in a decade most of that lot would have retired. So what kind of engineers do we need in order to build the pool in a decade down the line needs to be outlined and discussed with engineering universities today.

SPS type salaries are adequate for local hiring (considering the additional benefits that they provide).

However, in order to hire expat talent perhaps another form of organizational model is needed that is backed by a local form of DARPA.
 
.
More update on the same. Better that they get hired by the Turkish companies rather than brain drain to West.


As for sending students abroad. If required will write about it vaguely in another thread based on my experience of observing SPS types first hand (my family worked in such org and I lived in such places for 15+ yrs).

Long story short, it was need of the hour 18-20 yrs ago when our universities' output wasn't that much relative to what there is now.

What we need to ponder upon is that the lot then hired is reaching DCM level positions now. The future direction will be set by them and we will come to know whether the strat org made the right bet back then.

Further, in a decade most of that lot would have retired. So what kind of engineers do we need in order to build the pool in a decade down the line needs to be outlined and discussed with engineering universities today.

SPS type salaries are adequate for local hiring (considering the additional benefits that they provide).

However, in order to hire expat talent perhaps another form of organizational model is needed that is backed by a local form of DARPA.

Are they any Turkish investors looking to invest in IT sector?
 
.
I guess PAC & TAI projects are working together and the concepts are a bit the same too.

1l-Image-TAI-TF-X-Stealth-Fighter.jpg


PAKISTAN-Fifth-Generation-Fighter-Aircraft.jpg


Kind of the same TAI project.
the similarity is in the general design of the 5th gen fighter and you will see elements of existing Russian, Chinese and American 5th gen fighters as well. this is where the similarities end.

as far as cooperation with Turks goes, they showed no interest and turned us down when we originally approached them some time ago to join them in their own project. that response was so absolute and blunt that it sent our leadership back and reflect and then come with our own project. these words are from one of the JF17 project leaders in PAF.

Turks might change their mind but for them we didn't have the finances , technical know how and the infrastructure at a level to their satisfaction to qualify little more than a dead wight to join their project. yes people with quote JF-17 and Mirage rebuilt factory as an achievement of the millennium that needs Galactic recognition but the Turks point of view on these "achievements is not very faltering and worth sharing here.
 
. .

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom