Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[batmannow]

So far the focus is on JF-17 block 3 and possible future enhancements for block 3. AZM is still 10 years away.

So, all you mean is, if a war been imposed on pakistan then pakistan should wait to enhancing its JF17 BLK 3 and tell the enemy to wait for 10 more years we may have a 5th gen fighter?
That's the mind set, which puts pakistans security at all stakes that you are waiting for your enemy to attack you in balakot then your, balled head over 60s leadership will sit and plan a reply after 2 days?
What if the enemy, has came deep and have destroyed your strike bases, or some more important installations, like in abottabad case?
In modern day warfare, who ever strikes the frist below, is bieng called the Victor, no one waits thier enemies to execute strikes.
And Thts the biggest draw back of our militray planners they are living in cold war Era in thier minds

 

[batmannow]

Didn’t PAF hint that there’s an in-house AESA radar in development? If so, we know that won’t be for the JF-17,but rather for Project AZM. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but hasn’t PAF been investing in composite material technology? I think other than engines or perhaps the flight control, most other technologies are within its grasp?

If they could hve develop engines on thier own, then what you think, they illl be using RD93 in thunders?
Engines aren't a ice-cream which everyone can make in thier fridges?
Look at China, after so much research and development still they have to rely on Russian made engines, cause it takes a huge time to really be able to produce a really working engine and I think this project AZM may take more then 10 years, it ill be very slow process a lot of research be needed to reach that level while in the real world countries already on the 6th gen fighter jets and when we ill reach on 5th gen they illl be on 6th already

 

[Figaro]

If they could hve develop engines on thier own, then what you think, they illl be using RD93 in thunders?
Engines aren't a ice-cream which everyone can make in thier fridges?
Look at China, after so much research and development still they have to rely on Russian made engines, cause it takes a huge time to really be able to produce a really working engine and I think this project AZM may take more then 10 years, it ill be very slow process a lot of research be needed to reach that level while in the real world countries already on the 6th gen fighter jets and when we ill reach on 5th gen they illl be on 6th already

I am afraid your information is not up to date. The Chinese have not purchased Russian engines for a very long time now. The reason why the WS-13 is not used in the Thunder is because it a project that is not funded by the PLA (unlike the WS-10, WS-15, WS-19) but instead funded directly by AVIC. This means a lot less funding and importance has been relegated to it and thus its progress is relatively slow (especially since the PLAAF has no use for it).

Regarding the engine debate, I mentioned how the J-20, J-10C, J-15 Block III, and Y-20 are all using WS-10 variants now (with the last using the high bypass variant WS-20). Previously, it was using the WS-18 or D30KP-2. Essentially, every single major combat plane produced in the Chinese air force is using domestic engines. As you can see here, years of strenuous research and huge amounts of money have resulted in tangible results, which is that the Chinese are no longer constrained to relatively low performing Russian turbofans (indeed you only need to look at the J-10 or Su-30MKI crashes to see how reliable the AL-31F is).

 

[Falcon26]

If they could hve develop engines on thier own, then what you think, they illl be using RD93 in thunders?
Engines aren't a ice-cream which everyone can make in thier fridges?
Look at China, after so much research and development still they have to rely on Russian made engines, cause it takes a huge time to really be able to produce a really working engine and I think this project AZM may take more then 10 years, it ill be very slow process a lot of research be needed to reach that level while in the real world countries already on the 6th gen fighter jets and when we ill reach on 5th gen they illl be on 6th already

Please re-read my post. I haven’t suggested what you’re attributing to me. I am very much familiar with the complexities involved in jet engines.

 

[jupiter2007]

So, all you mean is, if a war been imposed on pakistan then pakistan should wait to enhancing its JF17 BLK 3 and tell the enemy to wait for 10 more years we may have a 5th gen fighter?
That's the mind set, which puts pakistans security at all stakes that you are waiting for your enemy to attack you in balakot then your, balled head over 60s leadership will sit and plan a reply after 2 days?
What if the enemy, has came deep and have destroyed your strike bases, or some more important installations, like in abottabad case?
In modern day warfare, who ever strikes the frist below, is bieng called the Victor, no one waits thier enemies to execute strikes.
And Thts the biggest draw back of our militray planners they are living in cold war Era in thier minds

India is our main enemy and they don’t have 5th generations fighter. Rafale is 4.5 (or 4th) generation fighter. India does not have them in significant numbers to bother Pakistan. We have already made the adjustments. Also China has given full guarantee to support Pakistan in any misadventure from India. Chinese are willing to move their aircrafts to Skardu, Mainwali, and another airbase in Balochistan.

 

[batmannow]

I am afraid your information is not up to date. The Chinese have not purchased Russian engines for a very long time now. The reason why the WS-13 is not used in the Thunder is because it a project that is not funded by the PLA (unlike the WS-10, WS-15, WS-19) but instead funded directly by AVIC. This means a lot less funding and importance has been relegated to it and thus its progress is relatively slow (especially since the PLAAF has no use for it).

Regarding the engine debate, I mentioned how the J-20, J-10C, J-15 Block III, and Y-20 are all using WS-10 variants now (with the last using the high bypass variant WS-20). Previously, it was using the WS-18 or D30KP-2. Essentially, every single major combat plane produced in the Chinese air force is using domestic engines. As you can see here, years of strenuous research and huge amounts of money have resulted in tangible results, which is that the Chinese are no longer constrained to relatively low performing Russian turbofans (indeed you only need to look at the J-10 or Su-30MKI crashes to see how reliable the AL-31F is).

Every engine been made for a different machine, and won't settle in all the CUSTOMIZED jets as our will, RD93 sets perfectly in JF17, while AL31s don't?
It's not the fault of manufactures its the fault of the customer where it's trying to use them, while making engines isn't that eazy, China with its decade experiences in reassembling Sukhois differnt versions still is far away in making a good working engines and needs more time to reach a final stage and a finished ptodouct and that's why you can see they still are buying SU35s in case of any emeergyncy they still have the real machine in thier hands, well I hve chinese friend who was aeronautical enginere in PLAAF leme ask him a few question and get back to you for more on the subject

 

[batmannow]

India is our main enemy and they don’t have 5th generations fighter. Rafale is 4.5 (or 4th) generation fighter. India does not have them in significant numbers to bother Pakistan. We have already made the adjustments. Also China has given full guarantee to support Pakistan in any misadventure from India. Chinese are willing to move their aircrafts to Skardu, Mainwali, and another airbase in Balochistan.

Mark my words, india is about to get F35 s then what you ill do, fight with just dreams and the knowledge from a few posts on PDF?

 

[PeacefulWar]

Mark my words, india is about to get F35 s then what you ill do, fight with just dreams and the knowledge from a few posts on PDF?

But according to you: China only have 24 true fighters which is Su-35.
US and Russia won't sell you any fighters and India will get F-35 soon.
What is your answer? Surrender to India now?

 

[jupiter2007]

Mark my words, india is about to get F35 s then what you ill do, fight with just dreams and the knowledge from a few posts on PDF?

India has S-400 and USA won’t allow India to have F-35. USA has already offered F-16 and F-18. I doubt that India will go for America plans. India might get the technology from Russia/France and develop Tejas block 3.

As far as PAF or PAF planner are concerned, they are satisfied with JF-17 block 3 and it should be enough to handle anything in Indian arsenal. However, they are hopefull that USA will allow Pakistan to purchase 18 - 24 used F-16 next year but our relationship is not good. I am not sure how things will play out if Biden wins the election.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

How you people dragged this discussion on a project which is still a concept to 137 pages mainly on assumptions?

AZM stealth fighter is not going to be in inventory till 2040s. Unless PAF buy an off the shelf solution.
Can't say about the MALE UCAV which may enter in service around 2030.

Everyone take a deep breath and wait till PAF finalize design of Stealth Fighter...
There are couple of valid questions:
1. How PAF going to fund this project.
2. Is PAC Kamra is capable of doing these sort of things?
3. How PAC will manage to make composites, stealth coatings, advanced avionics etc?

these are 3 questions

1. through allocation and diversion of funds from other projects.
2. currently maybe not, but it will need to evolve and expand into a tech/ aviation city with resources and facilities needed for such an ambitious project.
3. through performing the step 2. for further details on how to. you might want to check whatever is open source about 5th Generation projects of USA, China and Russia.

 

[batmannow]

India has S-400 and USA won’t allow India to have F-35. USA has already offered F-16 and F-18. I doubt that India will go for America plans. India might get the technology from Russia/France and develop Tejas block 3.

As far as PAF or PAF planner are concerned, they are satisfied with JF-17 block 3 and it should be enough to handle anything in Indian arsenal. However, they are hopefull that USA will allow Pakistan to purchase 18 - 24 used F-16 next year but our relationship is not good. I am not sure how things will play out if Biden wins the election.

There is a old saying
, everything is fair in love and war
you are just not knowing deep and just trying to prove what you think can benefit pakistan and that's the biggest fault in your POV, dear brother!

USA, has no problems, if india, Israel gets S400S from Russia cause both are bieng thier long term strategic partners?

But if Russia sells it to turkey, Pakistan, Iran USA will be angry and will block it or at least will try to block it?
It's not that S400S are from outer space thing, but the main thing is strategy, countries which USA wants to keep its long term allies, will be allowed as they ill be open to share whatever is in the S400 and also those countries aren't any threat to usa in long term?
Now Russia is playing a very great game here, which is to sell india a degraded or a system covertly desinged with some softwares to not to. Work untill Russia wants it or in other words Russians will be giving a S400 to India with a kill switch as they see it as a future threat as usa long term allies? which I'll be against russian intersts but at the same time as a part of another long term strategy Russia wants to keep india, depending on russian weaponry and which india knew very well and is trying very hard to get away with, RAFAELS , apaches, Chinooks are quite a few of its recently shoped list but still 70% of its airforce has to get upgrades and spare parts from Russia, even Indian army's 60% weapons are russian origin!
So America sees no probelms india having a S400, as they can look deep into that which india will nevr object and at the same time giving india its degraded versions with kill switchs its F35s variants!
Because their frist post against China is india and they don't want India fell to it any way!
But leme tell you a new secret talks on a deal going on in Israeli capital, which is to give F35s degraded versions with Israeli pilots flying them to both UAE and INDIA.
Dont ask me any links, cause these aren't are the news from any news site and all are just from underworld, from which I hve to deal sometimes for my small business for some angels
Why project AZM was started and why it's twin engines, if you can dig deep then you ill know that Pakistan doesn't need any F16s anymore no matter trump wins or not Biden wins or both lose?
Future of PAF is rightly, planned on a twin engine deep strike fighter aircraft be it a 5th gen if posible and I think, it may become possible after year a or 3, PAF is been talks with Russia since a long time and it may get it's fighter jets with some TOT and a joint venture on a 5th ++ gen fighter jets
And bring China, pak, Russia a joint venture altogether that's the closest I can go cause after that it's a dangerous red line, what pakistan wanted to get out of VIPERS we got it already.

 

[batmannow]

these are 3 questions

1. through allocation and diversion of funds from other projects.
2. currently maybe not, but it will need to evolve and expand into a tech/ aviation city with resources and facilities needed for such an ambitious project.
3. through performing the step 2. for further details on how to. you might want to check whatever is open source about 5th Generation projects of USA, China and Russia.

Brother leave it, our peoples just think everything is as posible as they buying veggies, they don't understand the your mentioned countries already are on thier way for the 6th gen AI dependent fighter jets and all of these countries spent trillions of dollors, decades of years in research We pakistanis think, making a 5th gen fighter jet is as ezy as JF17 thunder was but look that took how long and still its most advanced version not in our hands

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

So, all you mean is, if a war been imposed on pakistan ...

In modern day warfare, who ever strikes the frist below, is bieng called the Victor, ...

An aerial war was imposed last year and the enemy saw the consequences - 2 fighter aircraft and a helicopter lost.

Do you think India has the ability, capability and the will to do a blitzkrieg on Pakistan and get away with it? They couldn't even get away with a failed air strike last year.

As India does not have a fifth generation fighter aircraft, Pakistan is not in desperate need for one, hence, Pakistan can afford to develope Project Azm over the time period needed.

 

[batmannow]

An aerial war was imposed last year and the enemy saw the consequences - 2 fighter aircraft and a helicopter lost.

Do you think India has the ability, capability and the will to do a blitzkrieg on Pakistan and get away with it? They couldn't even get away with a failed Air strike last year.

As India does not have a fifth generation fighter aircraft, Pakistan is not in desperate need for one, hence, Pakistan can afford to develope Project Azm over the timd period needed.

What happened last year wasnt a war it's was more a chcek up of your readynes war is some thing differnt in which you don't give 2 days to your enemy to regroup and attack you again sorry brother you don't understand it
Yes india has the capability to strike deep into pakistan if not, then, PAF would have targeted them after they bieng comming out of dumping thier loads in BALAKOT and PAF wasn't there?
While if this time they ill come, they won't be comming alone, they ill be comming with Israeli F35s and that ill be not in PAFs capability to deal with and thats why China has given u new equipments, data link to its GPS system so, if it happens its J20s can cut them in circle fight without alerting them! But remember J20s are very limited in numbers

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

What happened last year wasnt a war it's was more a chcek up of your readynes war is some thing differnt in which you don't give 2 days to your enemy to regroup and attack you again sorry brother you don't understand it
Yes india has the capability to strike deep into pakistan if not, then, PAF would have targeted them after they bieng comming out of dumping thier loads in BALAKOT and PAF wasn't there?
While if this time they ill come, they won't be comming alone, they ill be comming with Israeli F35s and that ill be not in PAFs capability to deal with and thats why China has given u new equipments, data link to its GPS system so, if it happens its J20s can cut them in circle fight without alerting them! But remember J20s are very limited in numbers

You're now delving into conspiracy theories. They tested us last year and we tested them with a retort. They lost 2 fighter aircraft and a helicopter along with their mythical aerial supremacy.

More than a year later they've not done anything to retrieve their lost pride and their mythical aerial supremacy. They simply can't, since now China has decided to keep the trouble maker in check.

Had India said, "agar F-35 hota to yeh na hota", Pakistan would've probably needed to think past Project Azm but since the enemy hasn't, it's Azm all the way so far.