Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[CriticalThought]

Active flow control may be a suitable technology for sixth generation aircraft, if it is being actively researched. I very much doubt if PAC or really anyone else in Pakistan has the wherewithal to attempt it for Azm.

A word of caution - Americans successfully pitched dead-end research tangents in publications (like Popular Mechanics, for example) for Soviets to pick up and waste their resources. Pakistan has zero resources to spare & I would rather have PAC spend tax money where it brings the most benefit & not chase sexy new technologies.

With Azm's official timeline being 2040, do you really think PAC is targeting what is currently known as 'fifth gen'? That would be an utterly idiotic assumption. The lines between fifth and sixth will get increasingly blurred, especially because the Europeans, Chinese, and Russians are still effectively on 4th gen. Their next iteration, which would be 5th, would need to compete with American 6th gen.

Your caution is uninformed. Had you made the tiniest effort to search 'Active Flow Control' on Google scholar, you would find this technology is being researched in 2020 around the world, including by Chinese researchers.

Next, it seems you have never been a part of a high performance, results oriented culture. In first world countries, such a culture is based around 'fail early, fail often'. This is the only way forward if one wants to be at the forefront of modern technology. If people like yourself were managing affairs at PAC, I would be very concerned about our future.

Thankfully, PAC has quite bright minds laying out the path. The next gen of aerodynamic design lies at the intersection of AI and computational fluid dynamics and this is the secret behind the recent inauguration of the AI centre which nobody on this site seems to have grasped. There are people who are spouting BS about PAC's inability to delve in AI, and instead of refuting them, here you are trying to plant ambiguity on active flow control. Go get a life.

 

[Figaro]

With Azm's official timeline being 2040, do you really think PAC is targeting what is currently known as 'fifth gen'? That would be an utterly idiotic assumption. The lines between fifth and sixth will get increasingly blurred, especially because the Europeans, Chinese, and Russians are still effectively on 4th gen. Their next iteration, which would be 5th, would need to compete with American 6th gen.

Your caution is uninformed. Had you made the tiniest effort to search 'Active Flow Control' on Google scholar, you would find this technology is being researched in 2020 around the world, including by Chinese researchers.

Next, it seems you have never been a part of a high performance, results oriented culture. In first world countries, such a culture is based around 'fail early, fail often'. This is the only way forward if one wants to be at the forefront of modern technology. If people like yourself were managing affairs at PAC, I would be very concerned about our future.

Thankfully, PAC has quite bright minds laying out the path. The next gen of aerodynamic design lies at the intersection of AI and computational fluid dynamics and this is the secret behind the recent inauguration of the AI centre which nobody on this site seems to have grasped. There are people who are spouting BS about PAC's inability to delve in AI, and instead of refuting them, here you are trying to plant ambiguity on active flow control. Go get a life.

The Chinese J-20 and arguably the Russian Su-57 are both fifth gen fighters ... I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

 

[The Accountant]

The Chinese J-20 and arguably the Russian Su-57 are both fifth gen fighters ... I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

Su57 is still in development phase.
J20 is in evolution and training phase. Numbers are also very low.
However i believe that chinese are simultaneously working on 6th generation which is combination of 5th generation fighters drone technology and AI.
We should remember that chinese recently completed its own satellite network which is the basic infrastructure requirement for 6th generation fighters.

 

[Chak Bamu]

With Azm's official timeline being 2040, do you really think PAC is targeting what is currently known as 'fifth gen'? That would be an utterly idiotic assumption. The lines between fifth and sixth will get increasingly blurred, especially because the Europeans, Chinese, and Russians are still effectively on 4th gen. Their next iteration, which would be 5th, would need to compete with American 6th gen.

Your caution is uninformed. Had you made the tiniest effort to search 'Active Flow Control' on Google scholar, you would find this technology is being researched in 2020 around the world, including by Chinese researchers.

Next, it seems you have never been a part of a high performance, results oriented culture. In first world countries, such a culture is based around 'fail early, fail often'. This is the only way forward if one wants to be at the forefront of modern technology. If people like yourself were managing affairs at PAC, I would be very concerned about our future.

Thankfully, PAC has quite bright minds laying out the path. The next gen of aerodynamic design lies at the intersection of AI and computational fluid dynamics and this is the secret behind the recent inauguration of the AI centre which nobody on this site seems to have grasped. There are people who are spouting BS about PAC's inability to delve in AI, and instead of refuting them, here you are trying to plant ambiguity on active flow control. Go get a life.

Assumptions, assumptions, & more assumptions. We'll see what pans out & what does not. Throwing around terminologies does not improve the quality of one's post if the purpose is to simply lash out (for whatever reason).

I'd rather have Pakistan invest in HDI than chase sexy technologies that will likely have little or no impact outside of military applications. Having atomic weapons did not improve literacy rate. Azm would not help improve quality of life for a common tax payer. I fear that the project Azm would be a drain on already tight finances. If decision-makers delve into unproven technologies without a cost-benefit analysis, they would be doing a great disservice. Had Pakistan had 90% + literacy rate, a steadily growing economy, & robust finances, I would be all for aggressive R&D on tax-payers' account. Sadly, it ain't so & therefore decision makers must make each rupee count.

Learn to do some holistic analysis. Anyone can type drivel.

 

[Metal 0-1]

How you people dragged this discussion on a project which is still a concept to 137 pages mainly on assumptions?

AZM stealth fighter is not going to be in inventory till 2040s. Unless PAF buy an off the shelf solution.
Can't say about the MALE UCAV which may enter in service around 2030.

Everyone take a deep breath and wait till PAF finalize design of Stealth Fighter...
There are couple of valid questions:
1. How PAF going to fund this project.
2. Is PAC Kamra is capable of doing these sort of things?
3. How PAC will manage to make composites, stealth coatings, advanced avionics etc?

 

[Arsalan]

If Pakistan wants access to the J-35, then it'll probably need to buy into the FC-31 early.

I say this because I think the J-35 and FC-31 will emerge as different fighters.

They may each come from the J-31v2 stock, but one's going to have specific design elements for maritime and carrier ops (J-35), while the other will likely be simpler and lower cost (FC-31). The latter would work for the PAF in most situations, but the J-35 is still worth gunning for as it'd be Pakistan's first true maritime fighter (e.g., longer-ranged, salt erosion-proofing, etc). However, I suspect it'll be one of those jets the Chinese may keep to their chests. So, the PAF may need to try to buy in.

As per reports so far there is some difference but not much. From what i understand reading all those confusing reports coming out every few days, here is how it is.

1. China is running a fifth generation project, named FC-31
2. J-31 is the first aircraft to come through as a result of this project, prototypes flying already. However this design/plane is to be further improved upon. We may see more protoypes, may be even some operational planes named J-31 but that will be small scale production.
3. Lessons learned are to be used to develop a production ready version (version that is, of J-31) and that one will be called J-35. The plane is to be a development of J-31 and targeted to compete with US F-35!

So while J-31 and J-35 are to be different planes, they are essentially variants of each other in a way that one is the advanced, improved production ready version of the other.

For PAF the choice for AZM (imported one) is simple:

1. Go for J-31 and customize and improve as per our own requirement, may be even in partnership with a third party
2. Stick to the full Chinese option and go for J-35, an already improved and may be slightly customized version.

NOTE: Posting it here, the other thread was not relevant for this discusison, we should move other posts here as well or any other appropiate thread you can think of.

 

[batmannow]

View attachment 430109

It will take next 15 years to reach a level where it can be seen flown in skies, while untill then what?
Enemies power is keep growing with its Rafaels, MIRRAGES, sukhois while we are just waiting on project AZM ?
Where we stand, if we been massively attacked towmrow?
Dont tell me the feb incident, it not happens everyday!

 

[batmannow]

As per reports so far there is some difference but not much. From what i understand reading all those confusing reports coming out every few days, here is how it is.

1. China is running a fifth generation project, named FC-31
2. J-31 is the first aircraft to come through as a result of this project, prototypes flying already. However this design/plane is to be further improved upon. We may see more protoypes, may be even some operational planes named J-31 but that will be small scale production.
3. Lessons learned are to be used to develop a production ready version (version that is, of J-31) and that one will be called J-35. The plane is to be a development of J-31 and targeted to compete with US F-35!

So while J-31 and J-35 are to be different planes, they are essentially variants of each other in a way that one is the advanced, improved production ready version of the other.

For PAF the choice for AZM (imported one) is simple:

1. Go for J-31 and customize and improve as per our own requirement, may be even in partnership with a third party
2. Stick to the full Chinese option and go for J-35, an already improved and may be slightly customized version.

NOTE: Posting it here, the other thread was not relevant for this discusison, we should move other posts here as well or any other appropiate thread you can think of.

J31 still in testing phase, even PLAAF isn't satisfied with its performance and thus they have to buy SU35s from Russia cause they weren't sure about J31 adoptations in near future so your bet is on wrong horse ma friend!

 

[Arsalan]

J31 still in testing phase, even PLAAF isn't satisfied with its performance and thus they have to buy SU35s from Russia cause they weren't sure about J31 adoptations in near future so your bet is on wrong horse ma friend!

We were talking about J-31 and J-35 (Not Su-35)
J-31 is the initial product of project FC-31, J-35 is rumored to be a refined product in development of this same project. That is, J-31 is something that have room for changes and improvement, not a final product. That is why i mentioned that if we go for it we can further refine and improve on it, even with a third party and get a final product.
OR
We can wait and go directly for the refined/final product that is likely to be J-35

At the end, it will really depend on PAF future ambitions. If they want to go to proper self sufficiency in future then investing in J-31 and learning from the experience of improving and modifying it, may be even going for a parallel second fifth gen project will make sense. If we want to keep spending low and ok with working with China then we can go for J-35 directly with no parallel project.

 

[batmannow]

We were talking about J-31 and J-35 (Not Su-35)
J-31 is the initial product of project FC-31, J-35 is rumored to be a refined product in development of this same project. That is, J-31 is something that have room for changes and improvement, not a final product. That is why i mentioned that if we go for it we can further refine and improve on it, even with a third party and get a final product.
OR
We can wait and go directly for the refined/final product that is likely to be J-35

At the end, it will really depend on PAF future ambitions. If they want to go to proper self sufficiency in future then investing in J-31 and learning from the experience of improving and modifying it, may be even going for a parallel second fifth gen project will make sense. If we want to keep spending low and ok with working with China then we can go for J-35 directly with no parallel project.

I'm not talking bout SU35s, but that what China buyed from Russia as they calculated that they won't be able to complete J31 on time with thier growing enmity with USA?
So that's why thy buyed SU35s as a stop gap action, while as if a war breaks down by towmrow where PAF will stand with that AZM project while even block 3 of JF17 isn't in thier hands yet?
I'm eyeing the growing war like situation with India, where AZM stands out in that?

 

[jupiter2007]

I'm not talking bout SU35s, but that what China buyed from Russia as they calculated that they won't be able to complete J31 on time with thier growing enmity with USA?
So that's why thy buyed SU35s as a stop gap action, while as if a war breaks down by towmrow where PAF will stand with that AZM project while even block 3 of JF17 isn't in thier hands yet?
I'm eyeing the growing war like situation with India, where AZM stands out in that?

I don’t think China is purchasing additional SU-35. They have already increased the production of J-16 and J-15.

 

[batmannow]

I don’t think China is purchasing additional SU-35. They have already increased the production of J-16 and J-15.

They have it for, limited time untill they add more J20s and J31 passes last of its tests, but Chinese has engine problems still existing and that's why they may but more of SU57s or SU35s for a stop gap?
But what about us?

 

[Figaro]

I'm not talking bout SU35s, but that what China buyed from Russia as they calculated that they won't be able to complete J31 on time with thier growing enmity with USA?
So that's why thy buyed SU35s as a stop gap action, while as if a war breaks down by towmrow where PAF will stand with that AZM project while even block 3 of JF17 isn't in thier hands yet?
I'm eyeing the growing war like situation with India, where AZM stands out in that?

No they won't ... the 24 Su-35s were for evaluation purposes primarily and the Chinese were only impressed with the TVC flight control system and nozzles; they were especially unimpressed with the Su-35's radar, avionics, and EW systems. Besides, with the J-16 in full production and the J-20 entering production with TVC, there is nothing the Su-35 can offer the Chinese ... after all the PLAAF cannot even integrate Chinese weapons with the Su-35 thanks to the latter's new export restrictions.

They have it for, limited time untill they add more J20s and J31 passes last of its tests, but Chinese has engine problems still existing and that's why they may but more of SU57s or SU35s for a stop gap?
But what about us?

There are no more engine problems ... J-20s have been in production with WS-10 engines since late 2018 and they are switching to the WS-10 3D TVC version this year. The J-10Cs having similarly been produced with WS-10s starting in the same timeframe. Even the J-15 Block 3s are being produced with WS-10Hs, so the engine problem has been significantly mitigated. The only thing now we are waiting on is the WS-15, which will end the engine problem once and for all. Plus with J-20 production ramping up significantly, there is no need for a stop gap anyway, especially if the stop gap is imported and inferior to domestic versions.

 

[jupiter2007]

They have it for, limited time untill they add more J20s and J31 passes last of its tests, but Chinese has engine problems still existing and that's why they may but more of SU57s or SU35s for a stop gap?
But what about us?

So far the focus is on JF-17 block 3 and possible future enhancements for block 3. AZM is still 10 years away.

 

[Falcon26]

That was likely the original goal, but we might be 5-10 years away from that too.

Didn’t PAF hint that there’s an in-house AESA radar in development? If so, we know that won’t be for the JF-17,but rather for Project AZM. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but hasn’t PAF been investing in composite material technology? I think other than engines or perhaps the flight control, most other technologies are within its grasp?