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Private Players in Defence - Why ignored in India - Cause and Solution

@1ND1A,

you can put it in any ways you want. But basic problem with India is "social". Problem is not infrastructure, funds, scalability or learning capabilities as you are making it out to be.

Problem is Social illness of India. And, I can see this problem even in my family. My parents oppose any decision of mine to join any research facility in India because its a shame for them. For them, family and their traditions are above India. Hell, I can't even invite my friend at home because he is of certain caste.

And, by the way, mine is quite rich family.

And, this is reality. Now, you are free to put your excuses but this situation won't change so soon. Mentality of a nation doesn't change in decades. It takes centuries.

So, if you are saying that India can beat Russians, Chinese, Americans(Germans+Jews+immigrants) in technology one day thats not going to happen anytime soon.

Indians can do that but India can't, under present social system of mistrust, backwardness, caste-ism. There is a big difference between two.
 
. . .
@1ND1A,

you can put it in any ways you want. But basic problem with India is "social". Problem is not infrastructure, funds, scalability or learning capabilities as you are making it out to be.

Problem is Social illness of India. And, I can see this problem even in my family. My parents oppose any decision of mine to join any research facility in India because its a shame for them. For them, family and their traditions are above India. Hell, I can't even invite my friend at home because he is of certain caste.

And, by the way, mine is quite rich family.

And, this is reality. Now, you are free to put your excuses but this situation won't change so soon. Mentality of a nation doesn't change in decades. It takes centuries.

So, if you are saying that India can beat Russians, Chinese, Americans(Germans+Jews+immigrants) in technology one day thats not going to happen anytime soon.

Indians can do that but India can't, under present social system of mistrust, backwardness, caste-ism. There is a big difference between two.

I would totally agree with you on this. However, I noticed one point. Your parents doesn't like people/your friends from different cast. But it seems you don't have a problem. From my opinion this is a change this is the same change which we need in our country towards each other, towards work, towards learning and in all other areas where we need to improve. My friend its the word HOPE with which we breath every time. Lets hope we can pull this stunt off in coming days/years.

:sniper:
 
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Friends,

I am starting this thread to understand and share our knowledge on Indian defense companies. Why are they so reluctant in R&D and why GoI/MoD is not supporting them. Why domestic companies are not given equal chances or sharing some work load from DRDO initially.

I am sure there all lot of GURUs here who will be able to contribute to this thread.

Welcome EVERYONE....

:sniper:

Simply put , the issue at hand is that Indian army does not trust DRDO or Indian suppliers , and elements within the Army choose foreign suppliers over Indian ones.

Army has the least capital intensive of defence hardware , but breaking the mould with the army is impossible , they don't invest in any local R&D and are not big when it come's to local orders , although there are exceptions.
Take this for example But TATA and MAhindra have made a wide variety of things for the Army mostly transports , trucks and such have actually been accepted. But when they actually made defence equipment such as armoured vehicles , they are still trying to get them inducted on a large scale yet the army simply has not shown enough interest.
Frankly if you ask me , TATA and Mahindra between them can offer Everything from armoured vehicles , to tanks and artillery(Mahindra/BAE systems).
All the India army has to do is show interest.

IAF shared the army view up until a few years ago , now it readily embraces Indigenous products , it has even started to invest its time , efforts and money into local R&D , LCH for example . It has even asked Private companies to design UAV's but has yet to offer any financial assistance as they are still unproven. Keep in mind this is the most , if not the second most capital intensive sector of the forces , when it comes to weapons develop , not many players have the cash to break the mould here , but there are players who are doing it and the IAF if not cooperative , has at least been responsive.
as their is more investment and Private sector firms can afford to do R&D(which is an eventuality) , IAF will no doubt show positive attitude towards it.

IN , if you actually look into it , does have a very good indigenous arsenal , IN works with both the Public and private sector firms as need be. everything from manufacturing to design work. INS Arihant , the navy's most advanced vessel was in fact built with the help of L&T , i am not sure about their exact involvement , but i was informed they played a major role. But ship design as you would expect. Now L&T is designing patrol boats for the Navy. IN is doing it right , taking things at its own pace , in fact in the Navy it is the lack of infrastructure that is the hindrance rather than the chronic lack of initiative found in the other two branches. India can't do modular shipbuilding due bad infrastructure between ports and yards , IN goes for foreign systems because All of India's shipyards are filled with orders can't take any more , and can't build them fast enough to meet IN needs. Keep in mind however this is the most capital intensive of weapons development. Building the ships and trying to make the infrastructure needed to make, that takes a lot of cash , more than what IN or any company can afford out of the blue.

There you have it , but keep in mind however India private sector companies do also manufacture weapons , while they may not develop them , on this note Every one wants to see more of , Private sector manufacturing is going up , and people are pushing for more of it , and the offset clause only makes the picnic even better. It's only because of the profits made in manufacturing are the private sector firms considering going into weapons development , as they establish themselves and their QoS , they may receive more government support , but as of now the trend is positive.

____________________________________________________

You ask what can be done to speed up this process , get a copy of DRDO budget for the year, create a new department with in the MoD, call it the commie of weapons development or whatever , that is made up for both MoD and military leaders. Distribute that money amongst the three branches. Invite all players in the private sector , and then offer them the money.

How will this work , simple much like a contest , these companies have an opportunity to come up with systems , that suit the refurbishments of the armed forces , and then present their systems. They may secure funding from 1, 2 or all 3 branches as a result. As a result the branches have a stake on whatever is developed but they don't have to put their budget on the line. Private sector gets the funding much like a scholarship , they may use it as they see fit , if they can do their research for less , the remainder is their profit. then again if their initial bid for finding was also low , then they have a better chance of getting it. Who the branches may even want to use their own budget to finance some of these projects.

As you can imagine all thins will create a very competitive , efficient and effective system , every buck will count , every day late could mean the end of their funding , these guys make a profit selling their guns , not the actual funding , that is only to subsidize their research.
In fact Company;s may well end up submitting lower bid's in order to secure funding and cooperation , develop systems and make a profit selling them latter.

Well that is my idea , any way. with sufficient research and proper procedure i am sure you can make a proper system , like i described.
:cheers:
 
.
you can put it in any ways you want. But basic problem with India is "social". Problem is not infrastructure, funds, scalability or learning capabilities as you are making it out to be.

Problem is Social illness of India. And, I can see this problem even in my family. My parents oppose any decision of mine to join any research facility in India because its a shame for them. For them, family and their traditions are above India. Hell, I can't even invite my friend at home because he is of certain caste.

And, by the way, mine is quite rich family.


And, this is reality. Now, you are free to put your excuses but this situation won't change so soon. Mentality of a nation doesn't change in decades. It takes centuries.

So, if you are saying that India can beat Russians, Chinese, Americans(Germans+Jews+immigrants) in technology one day thats not going to happen anytime soon.

Indians can do that but India can't, under present social system of mistrust, backwardness, caste-ism. There is a big difference between two.

i don't understand your situation , i will not pretend to , nor will delude my self into thinking i know better. My family (also wealthy) never had such issue's.

But stop whining and grow a backbone, people like you are then one's who never help India because your dis-disillusioned by everything you see and your not pragmatic enough to let it go and focus on the positives , nor are you idealistic enough to strand up for what you believe in ,

Instead you sulk whenever you think about it , whine all day for what you perceive as a lack of everything in India , talk about how much it sucks and then eventually move abroad and tell them how much it sucks.

Dude i said it before i don't your situation , i don't know why your parents , but if you feel strongly about something , then i suggest you say something and do something , and never loose that attitude where ever you may end up in life . because frankly if you cant change your own habits or the habits of others in your own home, one cannot hope to do so outside of it.

The reason we have India the way it is with all its flaws and also its positives(there are my friend regardless it you want to acknowledge it or not)

Honestly dude , you get the problems , you seem like smart guy , but

you deal with them in such a pessimist way , why ?
IS there nothing else you can to do ?

But always remember dude , even if you can't change anything , and your the only guy who realises the problems and thinks. Your still the one guy who thinks differently and there are only 999,999,999 million people left for you conceive to you ideals.

then again no society will have a share all their ideals equally , racism is still an issue in America , and people handle the issue different based on what state their in , what we can hope for is however is people who are not who are not afraid to express their views and and stand up for their idea's , Weather you or mean agree with them , that is what India needs right now , more than Anything.

Heck dude , i dont know why i wrote this , may be i just needed to , may be i wanted you to read it. may be i am just the fool. Whatever the reason i typed it up. Done and done.
 
.
Simply put , the issue at hand is that Indian army does not trust DRDO or Indian suppliers , and elements within the Army choose foreign suppliers over Indian ones.

Army has the least capital intensive of defence hardware , but breaking the mould with the army is impossible , they don't invest in any local R&D and are not big when it come's to local orders , although there are exceptions.
Take this for example But TATA and MAhindra have made a wide variety of things for the Army mostly transports , trucks and such have actually been accepted. But when they actually made defence equipment such as armoured vehicles , they are still trying to get them inducted on a large scale yet the army simply has not shown enough interest.
Frankly if you ask me , TATA and Mahindra between them can offer Everything from armoured vehicles , to tanks and artillery(Mahindra/BAE systems).
All the India army has to do is show interest.

IAF shared the army view up until a few years ago , now it readily embraces Indigenous products , it has even started to invest its time , efforts and money into local R&D , LCH for example . It has even asked Private companies to design UAV's but has yet to offer any financial assistance as they are still unproven. Keep in mind this is the most , if not the second most capital intensive sector of the forces , when it comes to weapons develop , not many players have the cash to break the mould here , but there are players who are doing it and the IAF if not cooperative , has at least been responsive.
as their is more investment and Private sector firms can afford to do R&D(which is an eventuality) , IAF will no doubt show positive attitude towards it.

IN , if you actually look into it , does have a very good indigenous arsenal , IN works with both the Public and private sector firms as need be. everything from manufacturing to design work. INS Arihant , the navy's most advanced vessel was in fact built with the help of L&T , i am not sure about their exact involvement , but i was informed they played a major role. But ship design as you would expect. Now L&T is designing patrol boats for the Navy. IN is doing it right , taking things at its own pace , in fact in the Navy it is the lack of infrastructure that is the hindrance rather than the chronic lack of initiative found in the other two branches. India can't do modular shipbuilding due bad infrastructure between ports and yards , IN goes for foreign systems because All of India's shipyards are filled with orders can't take any more , and can't build them fast enough to meet IN needs. Keep in mind however this is the most capital intensive of weapons development. Building the ships and trying to make the infrastructure needed to make, that takes a lot of cash , more than what IN or any company can afford out of the blue.

There you have it , but keep in mind however India private sector companies do also manufacture weapons , while they may not develop them , on this note Every one wants to see more of , Private sector manufacturing is going up , and people are pushing for more of it , and the offset clause only makes the picnic even better. It's only because of the profits made in manufacturing are the private sector firms considering going into weapons development , as they establish themselves and their QoS , they may receive more government support , but as of now the trend is positive.

____________________________________________________

You ask what can be done to speed up this process , get a copy of DRDO budget for the year, create a new department with in the MoD, call it the commie of weapons development or whatever , that is made up for both MoD and military leaders. Distribute that money amongst the three branches. Invite all players in the private sector , and then offer them the money.

How will this work , simple much like a contest , these companies have an opportunity to come up with systems , that suit the refurbishments of the armed forces , and then present their systems. They may secure funding from 1, 2 or all 3 branches as a result. As a result the branches have a stake on whatever is developed but they don't have to put their budget on the line. Private sector gets the funding much like a scholarship , they may use it as they see fit , if they can do their research for less , the remainder is their profit. then again if their initial bid for finding was also low , then they have a better chance of getting it. Who the branches may even want to use their own budget to finance some of these projects.

As you can imagine all thins will create a very competitive , efficient and effective system , every buck will count , every day late could mean the end of their funding , these guys make a profit selling their guns , not the actual funding , that is only to subsidize their research.
In fact Company;s may well end up submitting lower bid's in order to secure funding and cooperation , develop systems and make a profit selling them latter.

Well that is my idea , any way. with sufficient research and proper procedure i am sure you can make a proper system , like i described.
:cheers:

I went through ever point what you said and I would have to accept that I agree with you 100%.

However, I am not sure even if you give then some amount of money as a scholarship is going to work.

1. As soon as 1 private player gets pass the other one in one field. The one who is ahead will carry one, will also get some amount of money, others who lost it initially or at the middle will not get as much profit. They might not be able to get the total amount invested in R&D. I also believe at some point it will be a moral crusher as well.

2. GoI/MoD will again have trouble finding out which technology will be better then the others. As they will have to understand the technology right from scratch.

3. How can we forget about corruption in our country. We all know defense in not untouched.

I am working in a software industry. We have a process when a new team takes over anything from older team. New team joins the older now, observer older team mates for some days. After a month new team start helping older team. Once new team is proficient in the area they start working on it by them self, suggestions are taken before the products are delivered. Finally new team takes over. This ensures the goal remains the same just the set of hands are changed.

We need something like this to start with on big R&D's. For example you said Tata/Mahindra is quite capable of developing tanks. Agreed, while work on Arjun Mark II is started lets have Tata/Mahindra involved in designing and in the initial phase of construction. During this period these companies will come up with there own plans on it. Any one of these two look more comfortable with the technology and infrastructure give them the contract. With this we ensure that the goal is same what ever DRDO had just that its now being developed by a private company.

The company which lost the contract will still have a good knowledge on the product and it can continue working if it wants and come up with a better piece.

This is my opinion :toast_sign:

:sniper:
 
.
However, I am not sure even if you give then some amount of money as a scholarship is going to work.

Not as much a scholarship but a research grant.

You see the whole idea is that
You take set amount of research money,
Give it to the armed forces thus making them responsible for how it is spent and what it yields the nation.
Get the armed forces to spend that cash , instead of MoD , that way its all the armed forces to spend it , test it and buy it.

This solves the problem for the armed forces not having a stake int projects , because at the end of the day it is their funding and they have to answer for it

You can implement it whatever way you want , but that is the general idea.

1. As soon as 1 private player gets pass the other one in one field. The one who is ahead will carry one, will also get some amount of money, others who lost it initially or at the middle will not get as much profit. They might not be able to get the total amount invested in R&D. I also believe at some point it will be a moral crusher as well.

The price of competition, you have to invest with multiple parties for competing systems , at the end of the day you win some and you lose some.

But overall it leads to an increase in manufacturing and design
capabilities.

If money gets wasted, as a consequence , there is always room

2. GoI/MoD will again have trouble finding out which technology will be better then the others. As they will have to understand the technology right from scratch.

That's why the Army does not trust India suppliers ,

If you'r going to do it however

It's just a calculated decision based on research papers or the bid it self or even a prototype.

Its up to the committee i mention before , to realise the potential of the project and invest in it.

Some don't make it , some do.
its not a perfect system , nothing is

At the end of the day, however you have India armed forces working with Indian Companies to develop Indian systems.

Isn't that what we all wanted ?

3. How can we forget about corruption in our country. We all know defense in not untouched.

How does that change anything , corruption is always there , but even if 50% of deals are compromised , you still have a lot of R&D happening.

You have to be pragmatic about it , are you out to solve corruption , or do you want to boost private sector participation. All i can say is leave the rest to CBI and hope for the best. you can only be responsible for minimization the corruption not its solution.

There are other institution dedicated for that , they should handle it

We need something like this to start with on big R&D's. For example you said Tata/Mahindra is quite capable of developing tanks. Agreed, while work on Arjun Mark II is started lets have Tata/Mahindra involved in designing and in the initial phase of construction. During this period these companies will come up with there own plans on it. Any one of these two look more comfortable with the technology and infrastructure give them the contract. With this we ensure that the goal is same what ever DRDO had just that its now being developed by a private company.

TATA and Mahindra will not design or develop anything without support from the Army.

Unless and until they get a contract with the army , for funding or orders or even subsidised funding.

They are not going to waste money on making a tank , when they can't rely on the army to support them , and the army it self is not held accountable for the development of the tank.

It's not going to work like that, ever.

No IA interest no R&D simple as that ,
My whole point was to make the Armed forces both Interested and responsible for what happened with the money.

For example

if the army was funding the development of a tank , when it is finally ready and built to spec , they cant say the tank is to heavy or this is not what we want.

They were funding the project with their money , with mandatory cooperation in the design and develop phase.

they it would be the army that had to explain why they paid for tank they did not want.

In the end this means this means every project the Army invests in , it is watched over and scrutinized by the MoD . The Army is held accountable for the project and the project it self has higher chance of success as a result.

The company which lost the contract will still have a good knowledge on the product and it can continue working if it wants and come up with a better piece.

Company's would not share research , unless its government mandated. The Idea is to have a group of company's , develop their capabilities and technology to the level that they can compete internationality.

If a company were to loose a contract to competing firm , then that firm would of had to show it was superior , in which case i don't see why we need the other firms research to get the new firm to deliver its systems .

Boeing and LM both made the YF-22 and YF-23 respectively , LM did not need the research from Boeing to make the F-22.

Your supposed to have competition and they are supposed to fight each other for the research money , to develop systems and then sell them.
 
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I am back after a very long time and would like to continue on my thread which I had started in 2010.

As a restarting point, I have gone through lot of articles lately and I see lot of stuff are coming through which I had discussed in bits and pieces.

I would like to keep adding into this thread about the recent progress and future roadmap.

:sniper:
 
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