Potential turbo-prop for PAF - Calidus B-250

[GriffinsRule]

I have been a strong proponent of the idea that PA and PAF could have effectively used a Embraer Tucano type of an aircraft to provide CAS, precision night attack capability, and recon/intel gathering missions. While one could argue that the Tucano had too many Israeli origin equipment (not that they couldnt be replaced) but I think the new variant being funded by UAE, which will also be produced there, could offer us a very capable platform that is cheaper to operate than the jets and attack helos, and bring to the table capabilities neither of the prior platforms offer.


Abu Dhabi strikes out
By Piotr Butowski (Air International Feb 2018)
ONE TRAVELS to air shows in faraway countries to see local, exotic exhibits. The local hero of last year’s Dubai Air Show, was the B-250 Bader light attack aircraft, displayed by Abu Dhabi-based company Calidus. The aircraft was advertised at the show as the first combat aircraft ever developed in the United Arab Emirates.

Brazilian roots
The B-250 strongly resembles the Embraer Tucano. No wonder: the B-250 was designed by Hungarian-born, Brazilian-based Joseph Kovács, who is behind both aircraft. Kovács currently works for Brazilian company Novaer, which is part of the Bader programme, along with the Emirati company Calidus.
Two prototypes were at the Dubai Air Show, both built by Novaer at its facility in São José dos Campos, Brazil. Calidus is currently building a new production plant at Al Ain, Abu Dhabi, where B-250 series production will be launched.
Prototype B-250 with Brazilian civil registration PR-ZNU was on static display; the other example, PR-ZNT, also painted black, participated in the flight display. According to a company spokesperson, since the B-250’s first flight in July 2017, the two prototype aircraft have accumulated more than 50 flight hours.

Designed for strike
In contrast to the Tucano, the Bader was designed from scratch as a close-air support, intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance, and counterinsurgency aircraft. Training is a secondary role and is advertised as low-cost in operation; the cost of one flight hour reportedly does not exceed $1,200.
The B-250 is a bit bigger than the Embraer Tucano. It is powered by a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68 turboprop, rated at 1,600shp and equipped with the Rockwell Collins ProLine Fusion avionics suite (Bader is the first attack aircraft to use the system) and an L-3 MX-15 multisensor imaging and lasing turret mounted under the fuselage.
The B-250 is made almost entirely of carbon fibre composite and is capable of carrying up to 1,796kg (3,960lb) of weapons on six underwing pylons and one ventral pylon. PR-ZNU was displayed with GPS-corrected P3 bombs made by the Emirati Tawazun Dynamics company, South Korean 70mm (2.75-inch) LIG Nex1 LOGIR infrared-corrected rockets, small DS-16 guided bombs, and 70mm (2.75-inch) Avibras Skyfire-70 unguided rockets.

B-250 characteristics
Length 10.98m (36ft)
Wing span 12.09m (39ft 8in)
Height 3.79m (12ft 5in)
Max speed 301kts (557km/h)
Cruise speed 280kts (519km/h) clean
248kts (469km/h) with stores
Ceiling 30,000ft (9,144m)
Operational radius with four Paveway
bombs, two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles
and an external fuel tank
560 nautical miles (1,037km)
Operational radius for ISR, 3 x fuel tanks
1,180 nautical miles (2,185km)
Ferry range 2,400 nautical miles (4,445 km)
Endurance 12 hours

 

[SipahSalar]

Not in favor of this. If you want to use a plane with light attack capabilities then drones are without doubt the future. It keeps your pilots safe while also giving a cheaper more robust C4ISR capability.

This is not the first such plane UAE has invested in. They have also bought AT-802's. The reason they are buying these planes is because of the war they are waging in Libya. They give these planes to mercenaries who then perform air strike missions over Libya.

They are cheap, don't need a command and control infrastructure like drones, and don't require a lot of training either. Pakistan should invest the same money in drone technology.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Investing in drones will be much more beneficial.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Investing in drones will be much more beneficial.

I disagree completely. If drones were such a great tool, why do we need attack helicopters even for example?
Drones are not only limited in their endurance, they also dont carry useful loads. Unless you have a drone that can do straffing runs to suppress enemy combatants or stay on station and be able to respond to different threats or calls for support. Besides, having a human pilot in a cockpit gives you significantly more situational awareness than any FLIR would do to any operator sitting behind a computer screen.

These platforms are different and for a reason. If that wasnt the case, countries would not be spending money on developing these

Not in favor of this. If you want to use a plane with light attack capabilities then drones are without doubt the future. It keeps your pilots safe while also giving a cheaper more robust C4ISR capability.

This is not the first such plane UAE has invested in. They have also bought AT-802's. The reason they are buying these planes is because of the war they are waging in Libya. They give these planes to mercenaries who then perform air strike missions over Libya.

They are cheap, don't need a command and control infrastructure like drones, and don't require a lot of training either. Pakistan should invest the same money in drone technology.

You are wrong in each of your paragraphs. These planes would actually be safer then the ancient Cobras we have been using in such missions for the last 10 years btw not to mention they give us precision night attack capability that right now only our F-16s have.

People in UAE are not stupid to be investing in these or the AT-802s. And they are not the only ones. Why do you the USAF is spending time and effort on its OA-X program for exactly such a role? As for war in Libya, that is exactly how we would be using them as well, in our border areas next to Afghanistan.

And lastly, I am not sure what you mean by not requiring a command and control infrastructure like drone? Do you think PAF or PA or any other country for that matter flies any of its assets willy-nilly without a C&C structure in place? Do we fly Mushshak and K-8 around without any C&C behind them? In fact this airplane offers a lot more in terms of capabilities, that PA/PAF sorely are in short supply of.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I have been a strong proponent of the idea that PA and PAF could have effectively used a Embraer Tucano type of an aircraft to provide CAS, precision night attack capability, and recon/intel gathering missions. While one could argue that the Tucano had too many Israeli origin equipment (not that they couldnt be replaced) but I think the new variant being funded by UAE, which will also be produced there, could offer us a very capable platform that is cheaper to operate than the jets and attack helos, and bring to the table capabilities neither of the prior platforms offer.


Abu Dhabi strikes out
By Piotr Butowski (Air International Feb 2018)
ONE TRAVELS to air shows in faraway countries to see local, exotic exhibits. The local hero of last year’s Dubai Air Show, was the B-250 Bader light attack aircraft, displayed by Abu Dhabi-based company Calidus. The aircraft was advertised at the show as the first combat aircraft ever developed in the United Arab Emirates.

Brazilian roots
The B-250 strongly resembles the Embraer Tucano. No wonder: the B-250 was designed by Hungarian-born, Brazilian-based Joseph Kovács, who is behind both aircraft. Kovács currently works for Brazilian company Novaer, which is part of the Bader programme, along with the Emirati company Calidus.
Two prototypes were at the Dubai Air Show, both built by Novaer at its facility in São José dos Campos, Brazil. Calidus is currently building a new production plant at Al Ain, Abu Dhabi, where B-250 series production will be launched.
Prototype B-250 with Brazilian civil registration PR-ZNU was on static display; the other example, PR-ZNT, also painted black, participated in the flight display. According to a company spokesperson, since the B-250’s first flight in July 2017, the two prototype aircraft have accumulated more than 50 flight hours.

Designed for strike
In contrast to the Tucano, the Bader was designed from scratch as a close-air support, intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance, and counterinsurgency aircraft. Training is a secondary role and is advertised as low-cost in operation; the cost of one flight hour reportedly does not exceed $1,200.
The B-250 is a bit bigger than the Embraer Tucano. It is powered by a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68 turboprop, rated at 1,600shp and equipped with the Rockwell Collins ProLine Fusion avionics suite (Bader is the first attack aircraft to use the system) and an L-3 MX-15 multisensor imaging and lasing turret mounted under the fuselage.
The B-250 is made almost entirely of carbon fibre composite and is capable of carrying up to 1,796kg (3,960lb) of weapons on six underwing pylons and one ventral pylon. PR-ZNU was displayed with GPS-corrected P3 bombs made by the Emirati Tawazun Dynamics company, South Korean 70mm (2.75-inch) LIG Nex1 LOGIR infrared-corrected rockets, small DS-16 guided bombs, and 70mm (2.75-inch) Avibras Skyfire-70 unguided rockets.

B-250 characteristics
Length 10.98m (36ft)
Wing span 12.09m (39ft 8in)
Height 3.79m (12ft 5in)
Max speed 301kts (557km/h)
Cruise speed 280kts (519km/h) clean
248kts (469km/h) with stores
Ceiling 30,000ft (9,144m)
Operational radius with four Paveway
bombs, two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles
and an external fuel tank
560 nautical miles (1,037km)
Operational radius for ISR, 3 x fuel tanks
1,180 nautical miles (2,185km)
Ferry range 2,400 nautical miles (4,445 km)
Endurance 12 hours

less like that we are going to get this more that we are getting horkus from turkey in future

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I disagree completely. If drones were such a great tool, why do we need attack helicopters even for example?
Drones are not only limited in their endurance, they also dont carry useful loads. Unless you have a drone that can do straffing runs to suppress enemy combatants or stay on station and be able to respond to different threats or calls for support. Besides, having a human pilot in a cockpit gives you significantly more situational awareness than any FLIR would do to any operator sitting behind a computer screen.

These platforms are different and for a reason. If that wasnt the case, countries would not be spending money on developing these



You are wrong in each of your paragraphs. These planes would actually be safer then the ancient Cobras we have been using in such missions for the last 10 years btw not to mention they give us precision night attack capability that right now only our F-16s have.

People in UAE are not stupid to be investing in these or the AT-802s. And they are not the only ones. Why do you the USAF is spending time and effort on its OA-X program for exactly such a role? As for war in Libya, that is exactly how we would be using them as well, in our border areas next to Afghanistan.

And lastly, I am not sure what you mean by not requiring a command and control infrastructure like drone? Do you think PAF or PA or any other country for that matter flies any of its assets willy-nilly without a C&C structure in place? Do we fly Mushshak and K-8 around without any C&C behind them? In fact this airplane offers a lot more in terms of capabilities, that PA/PAF sorely are in short supply of.

A better option would be to build upon Super Mushak.

Equip it with a more powerful engine, advanced avionics, capable of carrying more payload, some structural changes etc..

They already did somethin like this;

 

[SipahSalar]

. These planes would actually be safer then the ancient Cobras we have been using in such missions for the last 10 years btw not to mention they give us precision night attack capability that right now only our F-16s have.

The hard truth is that the insurgency is nearly dead in Pakistan. Most major military operations have ended. Can you tell me how many airstrikes PAF carried out over the past 6 months?

Helicopters are completely different things. They are to be used against enemy armor and they can do maneuvers that airplanes simply can't. They can hover just above the ground, avoiding radar detection. They can take potshots at enemy tanks and then hide behind treeline/hillside, then pop back up, fire and then go back into cover. These are just small minor examples.

People in UAE are not stupid to be investing in these or the AT-802s.

As i explained, they are to be used in Libya, whereas in Pakistan we no longer have need for such COIN aircraft. They might have been useful 10 years ago during the Swat operation. Who are we going to use this plane against? Because it won't work against our conventional enemy India.

And lastly, I am not sure what you mean by not requiring a command and control infrastructure like drone? Do you think PAF or PA or any other country for that matter flies any of its assets willy-nilly without a C&C structure in place?

No i meant the command and control infrastructure for drones. Air tractors like AT-802 require minimum crew and maintenance.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The hard truth is that the insurgency is nearly dead in Pakistan. Most major military operations have ended. Can you tell me how many airstrikes PAF carried out over the past 6 months?
...
As i explained, they are to be used in Libya, whereas in Pakistan we no longer have need for such COIN aircraft. They might have been useful 10 years ago during the Swat operation. Who are we going to use this plane against? Because it won't work against our conventional enemy India.

No I am not privy to PAF operations, but maybe you know how many strikes have been carried out since?
If PAF does not have a need for COIN operations, why did we buy Mi-35s? They are only going to be getting operational this year sometime. Besides, with an active insurgency still ongoing in Afghanistan and now with ISIS coming into play, it would be a folly to think we will not require similar assets in the coming decade as well.

A better option would be to build upon Super Mushak.

Mushshak is no where even in the ballpark for this sort of capability. Did you even compare the specs of the two? Check the range, speed, service ceiling, endurance and weapon carrying capacity and you will realize they are not comparable aircraft at all.

 

[Imran Khan]

Defence.pk fans jhaan koi weapon dekha dil machal gya

 

[SipahSalar]

If PAF does not have a need for COIN operations, why did we buy Mi-35s?

Again, you can't compare this plane to helicopter Gunships. Mi-35 is very capable in conventional warfare meanwhile B-250 won't be able to operate safely in contested airspace.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Drone cant perform strafing runs.
Why not combine drone and coin aircraft into one hybrid system that can be switched to drone mode when needed and piloted when needed???

I know it sounds wild. But thinking of wild things is how America has progressed so far in defence.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

No I am not privy to PAF operations, but maybe you know how many strikes have been carried out since?
If PAF does not have a need for COIN operations, why did we buy Mi-35s? They are only going to be getting operational this year sometime. Besides, with an active insurgency still ongoing in Afghanistan and now with ISIS coming into play, it would be a folly to think we will not require similar assets in the coming decade as well.



Mushshak is no where even in the ballpark for this sort of capability. Did you even compare the specs of the two? Check the range, speed, service ceiling, endurance and weapon carrying capacity and you will realize they are not comparable aircraft at all.

Didnt I make a point about modifying SM into something like that?

 

[Raider 21]

I have been a strong proponent of the idea that PA and PAF could have effectively used a Embraer Tucano type of an aircraft to provide CAS, precision night attack capability, and recon/intel gathering missions. While one could argue that the Tucano had too many Israeli origin equipment (not that they couldnt be replaced) but I think the new variant being funded by UAE, which will also be produced there, could offer us a very capable platform that is cheaper to operate than the jets and attack helos, and bring to the table capabilities neither of the prior platforms offer.


Abu Dhabi strikes out
By Piotr Butowski (Air International Feb 2018)
ONE TRAVELS to air shows in faraway countries to see local, exotic exhibits. The local hero of last year’s Dubai Air Show, was the B-250 Bader light attack aircraft, displayed by Abu Dhabi-based company Calidus. The aircraft was advertised at the show as the first combat aircraft ever developed in the United Arab Emirates.

Brazilian roots
The B-250 strongly resembles the Embraer Tucano. No wonder: the B-250 was designed by Hungarian-born, Brazilian-based Joseph Kovács, who is behind both aircraft. Kovács currently works for Brazilian company Novaer, which is part of the Bader programme, along with the Emirati company Calidus.
Two prototypes were at the Dubai Air Show, both built by Novaer at its facility in São José dos Campos, Brazil. Calidus is currently building a new production plant at Al Ain, Abu Dhabi, where B-250 series production will be launched.
Prototype B-250 with Brazilian civil registration PR-ZNU was on static display; the other example, PR-ZNT, also painted black, participated in the flight display. According to a company spokesperson, since the B-250’s first flight in July 2017, the two prototype aircraft have accumulated more than 50 flight hours.

Designed for strike
In contrast to the Tucano, the Bader was designed from scratch as a close-air support, intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance, and counterinsurgency aircraft. Training is a secondary role and is advertised as low-cost in operation; the cost of one flight hour reportedly does not exceed $1,200.
The B-250 is a bit bigger than the Embraer Tucano. It is powered by a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68 turboprop, rated at 1,600shp and equipped with the Rockwell Collins ProLine Fusion avionics suite (Bader is the first attack aircraft to use the system) and an L-3 MX-15 multisensor imaging and lasing turret mounted under the fuselage.
The B-250 is made almost entirely of carbon fibre composite and is capable of carrying up to 1,796kg (3,960lb) of weapons on six underwing pylons and one ventral pylon. PR-ZNU was displayed with GPS-corrected P3 bombs made by the Emirati Tawazun Dynamics company, South Korean 70mm (2.75-inch) LIG Nex1 LOGIR infrared-corrected rockets, small DS-16 guided bombs, and 70mm (2.75-inch) Avibras Skyfire-70 unguided rockets.

B-250 characteristics
Length 10.98m (36ft)
Wing span 12.09m (39ft 8in)
Height 3.79m (12ft 5in)
Max speed 301kts (557km/h)
Cruise speed 280kts (519km/h) clean
248kts (469km/h) with stores
Ceiling 30,000ft (9,144m)
Operational radius with four Paveway
bombs, two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles
and an external fuel tank
560 nautical miles (1,037km)
Operational radius for ISR, 3 x fuel tanks
1,180 nautical miles (2,185km)
Ferry range 2,400 nautical miles (4,445 km)
Endurance 12 hours

Good post. And no worries on the Israeli technologies part, if it is available without export restrictions then it should not matter where it is coming from. Also there are other platforms such as PC-9, PC-21, KT-1, Hurkus and the AT-6. But I agree, it would be a great asset for CAS and intelligence.

 

[ARMalik]

Drone cant perform strafing runs.
Why not combine drone and coin aircraft into one hybrid system that can be switched to drone mode when needed and piloted when needed???

I know it sounds wild. But thinking of wild things is how America has progressed so far in defence.

You mean a mini version of Osprey?
------------------------------------------------------
The Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey is an American multi-mission, tiltrotor military aircraft with both vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL), and short takeoff and landing (STOL) capabilities. It is designed to combine the functionality of a conventional helicopter with the long-range, high-speed cruise performance of a turboprop aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

----------------------------------------------------------

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Not exactly but yeah something that can be a drone and a regular aircraft when needed.

You mean a mini version of Osprey?
------------------------------------------------------
The Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey is an American multi-mission, tiltrotor military aircraft with both vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL), and short takeoff and landing (STOL) capabilities. It is designed to combine the functionality of a conventional helicopter with the long-range, high-speed cruise performance of a turboprop aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

----------------------------------------------------------