Potential turbo-prop for PAF - Calidus B-250

[CriticalThought]

Good post. And no worries on the Israeli technologies part, if it is available without export restrictions then it should not matter where it is coming from. Also there are other platforms such as PC-9, PC-21, KT-1, Hurkus and the AT-6. But I agree, it would be a great asset for CAS and intelligence.

@GriffinsRule

With India's prowess in aerial warfare and defence, forget about using turboprops.

Drones remain relevant in the following cases:

1. Extremely small and cheap ones for recon at company level.

2. Shahpar/Burraq because they don't have the associated costs of training a human pilot. Furthermore, they are locally made.

3. And with the advent of MALE and HALE drones, all limitations will be removed. They will be able to carry larger pay loads further and remain in the air for longer.

The relevance for transport helis for evac and transport cannot be denied. The relevance for attack helis is because of maneuverability. The ability to remain beyond line of sight using a tree line/ridge/hillock for cover, quickly appear, fire, then retreat. The ability to loiter in the same spot. And the ability of modern helis to terrain map using millimetre wave radars, give a sensor fused picture to a human operator and allow for immediate control without latency is simply unsurpassed up till now. In this last case, I am pointing at the agility and speed of the heli vs a turboprop platform.

 

[Azadkashmir]

Drone cant perform strafing runs.
Why not combine drone and coin aircraft into one hybrid system that can be switched to drone mode when needed and piloted when needed???

I know it sounds wild. But thinking of wild things is how America has progressed so far in defence.

my approach is to combine military tech to civilians tech. Universities would receive research and samples from military to play with and further experiment and can progress better.
Most tech civilians use are from military tech.

An example can be drone tech to be transferred over and taught to college /uni students and they can play with it improve it add to it and even put it to work for civilian use and sell products.

 

[SQ8]

The PAF was focused on the role to defend against India, hence when you plan for 60 years to fight a specific threat and you have a limited budget you do not pile on equipment.

What should have been done was to see if there was capacity to procure dual use civillian/military aircraft like a Cessna Caravan for the cheap CAS role. So even the WoT played out these airplanes would still have a very useful transport capacity available.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The PAF was focused on the role to defend against India, hence when you plan for 60 years to fight a specific threat and you have a limited budget you do not pile on equipment.

What should have been done was to see if there was capacity to procure dual use civillian/military aircraft like a Cessna Caravan for the cheap CAS role. So even the WoT played out these airplanes would still have a very useful transport capacity available.

Not every platform can be utilized for every role ... Caravans can be used in SIGNIT and ISR roles but not effectively for CAS, where they might have to fly in fast and low. And its a fallacy to say that PAF only has to defend against India as we certainly have a menace to deal with in Afghanistan now, and in the foreseeable future. And Pakistan has combated insurgencies in Balochis
tan before too. It would be a folly to think similar threats won't rear their heads again in the future.

As for the limited budget and not piling on equipment, how does buying three different types of attack helicopters, each in token amounts, line up with that notion? Besides these CAS planes are not a huge strain on the budget in the long term.

@GriffinsRule

With India's prowess in aerial warfare and defence, forget about using turboprops.

Drones remain relevant in the following cases:

1. Extremely small and cheap ones for recon at company level.

2. Shahpar/Burraq because they don't have the associated costs of training a human pilot. Furthermore, they are locally made.

3. And with the advent of MALE and HALE drones, all limitations will be removed. They will be able to carry larger pay loads further and remain in the air for longer.

The relevance for transport helis for evac and transport cannot be denied. The relevance for attack helis is because of maneuverability. The ability to remain beyond line of sight using a tree line/ridge/hillock for cover, quickly appear, fire, then retreat. The ability to loiter in the same spot. And the ability of modern helis to terrain map using millimetre wave radars, give a sensor fused picture to a human operator and allow for immediate control without latency is simply unsurpassed up till now. In this last case, I am pointing at the agility and speed of the heli vs a turboprop platform.

@CriticalThought Do you see Pakistan army using unarmed helicopters or heck Mushshaks in any role in a war against India? Every platform has a role to play and yes if we have turboprops that can attack with precision guided weapons, you can be sure they would be used.

1/2. Extremely small and cheap drones are only used for surveillance, have limited range and are endurance, and provide troops with critical SA in their small area of operation.

3. MALE and HALE drones are also very expensive ... and still will not be able to carry 4 LGB and still have the range and flexibility of operations. Can you land those expensive drones in a small FOB or a small landing strip with minimal infrastructure?

Again, every platform has its own utility, and if you guys just don't want to see that in planes like the Tucano or B-250 you are entitled to that. I still have not heard of a single good argument for not having a platform in PA and/or PAF to fill such a role so I think they would be an excellent addition in our order of battle.

 

[Hassan Guy]

just go full USA and build a moab

but rename it to aunty of all bombs

 

[SQ8]

Not every platform can be utilized for every role ... Caravans can be used in SIGNIT and ISR roles but not effectively for CAS, where they might have to fly in fast and low. And its a fallacy to say that PAF only has to defend against India as we certainly have a menace to deal with in Afghanistan now, and in the foreseeable future. And Pakistan has combated insurgencies in Balochis
tan before too. It would be a folly to think similar threats won't rear their heads again in the future.

As for the limited budget and not piling on equipment, how does buying three different types of attack helicopters, each in token amounts, line up with that notion? Besides these CAS planes are not a huge strain on the budget in the long term.




@CriticalThought Do you see Pakistan army using unarmed helicopters or heck Mushshaks in any role in a war against India? Every platform has a role to play and yes if we have turboprops that can attack with precision guided weapons, you can be sure they would be used.

Look up AC-208 for your answer.

And yes they still cost money.
Are you aware of what the exact procurement and operational budget is of the PAF?

As for your remark regarding the Unarmed helicopters and Mushaks, suggest you widen your knowledge before forming a view and trying to defend it. You do realize that each platforms has roles unarmed helicopters wont sit on airfields during a war but will be transporting men & material right?
Even the Mushaks are going to be doing FAC and observer roles.

So I suggest you first read up and understand the width of operational requirements that exist and capabilities that each platform brings before we delve further into this

 

[BHarwana]

Instead of spending money on these useless planes Pakistan should weaponize T 38 m that were given by Turkey to Pakistan as a gift that approach would be cheap and far more efficient.

And If Pakistan really needs propeller driven plane there are many chassis of TEMPEST that PAF has they can make them operational again.

 

[Raider 21]

Instead of spending money on these useless planes Pakistan should weaponize T 38 m that were given by Turkey to Pakistan as a gift that approach would be cheap and far more efficient.

And If Pakistan really needs propeller driven plane there are many chassis of TEMPEST that PAF has they can make them operational again.

Tempest seriously ?? It would be a great warbird to fly but use it in modern combat....I just don't know what to say.

 

[BHarwana]

Tempest seriously ?? It would be a great warbird to fly but use it in modern combat....I just don't know what to say.

We have so many of those fcuking old chassis just rebuild the damn thing with modern gadgets instead of wasting money on foreign procurement just manufacture these old babies back into skies. they were the kings of their time.

 

[HannibalBarca]

If by anychance...PAF... buy ONE of those garbage plane... I'm sorry...But whoever made the decision should be Hanged and everyone who supported him... even if he's the most respected one in PAF or elsewhere...

 

[BHarwana]

If by anychance...PAF... buy ONE of those garbage plane... I'm sorry...But whoever made the decision should be Hanged and everyone who supported him... even if he's the most respected one in PAF or elsewhere...

No one made the decision just some one is trying to find love for those shit coffins in Pakistan. Afghanistan is crawling with MANPADS and they want to sell Pakistan these coffins. Sorry but PAF pilots are valuable assets.

Look at the TEMPEST flying it is better than any propeller fighter.

PAF has these chassis in stock lying some where.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Manpads are greatly ineffective against turboprops ...

Look up AC-208 for your answer.

And yes they still cost money.
Are you aware of what the exact procurement and operational budget is of the PAF?

As for your remark regarding the Unarmed helicopters and Mushaks, suggest you widen your knowledge before forming a view and trying to defend it. You do realize that each platforms has roles unarmed helicopters wont sit on airfields during a war but will be transporting men & material right?
Even the Mushaks are going to be doing FAC and observer roles.

So I suggest you first read up and understand the width of operational requirements that exist and capabilities that each platform brings before we delve further into this

Perhaps you didn't comprehend what I was trying to say ... helicopters and Mushaks will have their role in wartime, as will any CAS aircraft. You were suggesting these would be useless against India, which I don't agree with.

 

[BHarwana]

Manpads are greatly ineffective against turboprops ...

Why are they in effective? You think I am a fool.
In 1978 Air Rhodesia Flight 825 shootdown by a infrared homing Strela 2 MANPADS is good evidence of even early infrared homing missiles being able to target turboprop aircraft.

But Today's MANPADS will heat this baby's a$$ like Chitrol in Attock jail.

 

[Inception-06]

Manpads are greatly ineffective against turboprops ...



Perhaps you didn't comprehend what I was trying to say ... helicopters and Mushaks will have their role in wartime, as will any CAS aircraft. You were suggesting these would be useless against India, which I don't agree with.

Oscar didnt say they will be uselesse, but we simply can't afford such a big aircraft inventory.

 

[GriffinsRule]

We have so many of those fcuking old chassis just rebuild the damn thing with modern gadgets instead of wasting money on foreign procurement just manufacture these old babies back into skies. they were the kings of their time.

Once you make these babies airworthy with new engines, airframes, NVG compatible glass cockpit, HMD, and able to carry precision guided bombs and AGM, you would have spent a lot more money and wasted time when purchasing something off the shelf anyways, esp if only a limited number are needed anyways.