Potential turbo-prop for PAF - Calidus B-250

[BHarwana]

Once you make these babies airworthy with new engines, airframes, NVG compatible glass cockpit, HMD, and able to carry precision guided bombs and AGM, you would have spent a lot more money and wasted time when purchasing something off the shelf anyways, esp if only a limited number are needed anyways.

Ahhhh you waste money Pakistan already has those tech you are mentioning developed and that is some thing very cheap in Pakistan. Pakistan is already producing the cheapest and most capable fighter jet in the world in it's class. Plus we already have engines and lot more stuff to develop these things. that UAE private firm developed these coffins in 2 years Pakistan can do it in 6 month if we want to. Plus Pakistan is more focused on domestic platform development and there is a wide market of these planes in Africa I think Pakistan should develop them and enter the industry. Thanks for giving Pakistani the idea to develop these babies and with resources PAC has at it's disposal we can do a far better job with more pay load and stuff. We can use the K-8 avionics suite for this type of air craft which is far more better than UAE is selling.

Visit the site below to see the things we are developing already.

http://www.pac.org.pk/

 

[GriffinsRule]

Oscar didnt say they will be uselesse, but we simply can't afford such a big aircraft inventory.

Actually affordability is a major reason for having such aircraft precisely as they can do the same mission as currently being carried out by F-16s as a much cheaper operating costs.

 

[BHarwana]

Oscar didnt say they will be uselesse, but we simply can't afford such a big aircraft inventory.

Oscar made a mistake by saying it is not useless for us I am saying it is useless for us. We can develop a far better aircraft than this and in half the price. We are already making Turbo propelled air crafts and widely popular ones like Super Mushahk. We have TEMPEST chassis and every other tech just have to put together some spare parts in PAC and the thing will be air borne and shooting and selling.

 

[araz]

Actually affordability is a major reason for having such aircraft precisely as they can do the same mission as currently being carried out by F-16s as a much cheaper operating costs.

The problem remains cash. In house development will be costly and 3- 5 yrs in development a d 8f you spend 100 million on it and only need 2 squadrons you are better off buying it. Fhe questio. Rwmains of the need and the utility in light of drone development.
A

 

[BHarwana]

The problem remains cash. In house development will be costly and 3- 5 yrs in development a d 8f you spend 100 million on it and only need 2 squadrons you are better off buying it. Fhe questio. Rwmains of the need and the utility in light of drone development.
A

Come on man the thing that is being sold in this thread is made by a private UAE firm and developed in 2 years and done cheaply. this is not even hard to make. listen to this interview below and get informed.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The problem remains cash. In house development will be costly and 3- 5 yrs in development a d 8f you spend 100 million on it and only need 2 squadrons you are better off buying it. Fhe questio. Rwmains of the need and the utility in light of drone development.
A

Again, the utility of these for PAF in their operations, they would know better. We are only speculating here. But they are not comparable to drones. If such was the case, why would the drone king of the world, USAF, be holding a competition to eventually field 300 of such aircraft.

Oscar made a mistake by saying it is not useless for us I am saying it is useless for us. We can develop a far better aircraft than this and in half the price. We are already making Turbo propelled air crafts and widely popular ones like Super Mushahk. We have TEMPEST chassis and every other tech just have to put together some spare parts in PAC and the thing will be air borne and shooting and selling.

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but sadly you don't seem to indicate even that little bit in any of your posts. Good thing for there is the ignore option.

 

[araz]

Again, the utility of these for PAF in their operations, they would know better. We are only speculating here. But they are not comparable to drones. If such was the case, why would the drone king of the world, USAF, be holding a competition to eventually field 300 of such aircraft.

We have limited utility and use for these platform not exceeding 1 squadron at the most and only on the Western front. Do you envisage a buy or a local development for 1 squadron? What will be its utility once the Afghan and the NWFP ops dry up? Will it have any use on the Eastern front? Do you foresee any task which the drones canmot carry out. It may not be ideal but unlike the US we neither have the funds nor the international arena in which the US operates. We are a regional army with no designs of international expansionist policies/ agendas.
A

Come on man the thing that is being sold in this thread is made by a private UAE firm and developed in 2 years and done cheaply. this is not even hard to make. listen to this interview below and get informed.

I dont need to listen to the interview of any Sheikh. I ask very simple questions. What is our need? Where is the money going to come from? And what is the long term utility of this platform? By the by you might want to check the financial condition of the UAE vis a Vis Pak lands. You just dont have that luxury.
A

 

[BHarwana]

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but sadly you don't seem to indicate even that little bit in any of your posts. Good thing for there is the ignore option.

I am not saying these thing are bad but just that they are bad idea for us to buy as Pakistan is capable of producing them so why waste valuable military budget on them? Pakistan is already employing the designer in PAC and paying them all they need to do is study the TEMPEST chassis and develop a design. Pakistan already has engine suppliers for Super Mushahk all we have to do is increase the orders. Pakistan is already developing air to ground bombs all we have to do is integrate them. The product that is being sold in this thread comes with UAE made bombs that means we cannot use our precision weapons and every time we will bomb some terrorist camp we will be paying more money to UAE for each bomb we use. But domestically building them and using our own weapons will bring the cost of our own bombs down and thus economies of scale will help.

I dont need to listen to the interview of any Sheikh. I ask very simple questions. What is our need? Where is the money going to come from? And what is the long term utility of this platform? By the by you might want to check the financial condition of the UAE vis a Vis Pak lands. You just dont have that luxury.

I will 100% agree with you on the money analysis. But why not fully arm the Mushakh and sell it like this platform. We make a hell lot of Mushakh it is the best sell for PAC. This will give good sales in Africa.

 

[araz]

I am not saying these thing are bad but just that they are bad idea for us to buy as Pakistan is capable of producing them so why waste valuable military budget on them? Pakistan is already employing the designer in PAC and paying them all they need to do is study the TEMPEST chassis and develop a design. Pakistan already has engine suppliers for Super Mushahk all we have to do is increase the orders. Pakistan is already developing air to ground bombs all we have to do is integrate them. The product that is being sold in this thread comes with UAE made bombs that means we cannot use our precision weapons and every time we will bomb some terrorist camp we will be paying more money to UAE for each bomb we use. But domestically building them and using our own weapons will bring the cost of our own bombs down and thus economies of scale will help.



I will 100% agree with you on the money analysis. But why not fully arm the Mushakh and sell it like this platform. We make a hell lot of Mushakh it is the best sell for PAC. This will give good sales in Africa.

Because you will need to make changez to it which will require major modifications and testing. This is both time consuming expensive and manpower intensive. You already have one project running wwnt to assemble helos locally requiring an assembly plant and new trained staff. Every capable person is utilized to maximum capacity.
So for the umpteenth time
A. Limited utility.
B. Limited use.
C. Limited prospects.
D. Man power intensive.
E. Increasing pilot attrition.
F High development costs.
G. Long latency time to develop the project.
H.Lack of money and infrastructure.( this assembly line would be different from the Mashaq one).
I. Limited demand.
J. Competing as a new provider in a niche where there is a glut
And you want to do it for 1 squadron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
A

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

It would be helpful to see a few squadrons of these with army aviation and air force.

 

[BHarwana]

Because you will need to make changez to it which will require major modifications and testing. This is both time consuming expensive and manpower intensive. You already have one project running wwnt to assemble helos locally requiring an assembly plant and new trained staff. Every capable person is utilized to maximum capacity.
So for the umpteenth time
A. Limited utility.
B. Limited use.
C. Limited prospects.
D. Man power intensive.
E. Increasing pilot attrition.
F High development costs.
G. Long latency time to develop the project.
H.Lack of money and infrastructure.( this assembly line would be different from the Mashaq one).
I. Limited demand.
J. Competing as a new provider in a niche where there is a glut
And you want to do it for 1 squadron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
A

point B. Their utility is only ground attack opps and only day light missions.
So yes they have limited use agreed.

point D. They are manpower intensive agreed.

point F. Development cost will be less than the people who developed them and the aircraft was not developed by UAE but a private firm with own funds.

point G. Time to develop is not long. Pakistan don't has to setup a new infrastructure to develop this we already have.

point H. Lack of money agreed (But to develop them locally will cost less than buying them this is 2018 it is cheap to develop world war 2 tech although it is bit more than that). Lack of infrastructure not agreed. Pakistan has infrastructure to develop them.

Point J. it is your most valid point in this whole discussion.

 

[GriffinsRule]

We have limited utility and use for these platform not exceeding 1 squadron at the most and only on the Western front. Do you envisage a buy or a local development for 1 squadron? What will be its utility once the Afghan and the NWFP ops dry up? Will it have any use on the Eastern front? Do you foresee any task which the drones canmot carry out. It may not be ideal but unlike the US we neither have the funds nor the international arena in which the US operates. We are a regional army with no designs of international expansionist policies/ agendas.
A


I dont need to listen to the interview of any Sheikh. I ask very simple questions. What is our need? Where is the money going to come from? And what is the long term utility of this platform? By the by you might want to check the financial condition of the UAE vis a Vis Pak lands. You just dont have that luxury.
A

There is no need to reinvent the wheel, so definitely buying off the shelf a platform that has already been developed. And it doesn't need to be the one UAE is funding, though it shares similarities with the Super Tucano (same designer) that is in service in more then a dozen countries. And I don't foresee operations in the NWFP region drying up anytime soon, esp with the continued US presence there and the status of Afghanistan's internal dynamics. So yes, a limited buy of a even 15-20 such aircraft would go a long way in supporting all sorts of missions that are currently being conducted by either fighter jets and even C-130.

So if your basic premise for the argument is that money is basically the problem for an air force trying to have 400+ fast jets, then sure, it will costs money to buy anything, but acquisition costs are just part of the equation. I just went back to read a short article to refresh my memory on light attack aircraft, and it listed the per hour cost of operating a Super Tucano at a $1000 (Combat Aircraft 5/17).

Of course, any military arm has to work within the confines of its budget and allocate based on its priorities, but that is the purpose of why I started this thread, to have a debate on whether it would make sense to acquire such a capability given that we are already using assets less suited for a low threat environment.

In terms of their utility on the eastern front, PAF was only in the past few years able to even digitally map our border with India, only after the acquisition of American weapons. These platforms can be used in much the same role as our Bright Star equipped C-130s are used in as well as monitoring activities around the border and looking for infiltrations. And since these can be based at any small airfield, I can see them giving air support for troops, and civilians working on CPEC in Balochistan by monitoring for insurgents and other terrorists activities. Even for providing local air support, these would get on station much faster then any helicopter and stay on station longer as well. So I see them having a lot of uses in Pakistan even right now.

Of course if someone brings up idiotic points about using WWII era aircraft, it just serves to derail any discussion.

 

[SQ8]

Manpads are greatly ineffective against turboprops ...



Perhaps you didn't comprehend what I was trying to say ... helicopters and Mushaks will have their role in wartime, as will any CAS aircraft. You were suggesting these would be useless against India, which I don't agree with.

Then its a linear misunderstanding on that point, but the basic idea that a single role Light CAS would be coat prohibitive and useless remains.

Most of the insurgent threat has been pushed back and taken care of ,while the MALE UAVs and other remote strike assets will take care of any light strike needs, heavy strike will be handled by helicopters such as the Mi-35.

There is a gap for the loitering arms truck and that is where my suggestion of either the Caravan or even the armed C-295 gunship might be useful.

Something that isnt sitting on the Tarmac once a threat reduces. Just like how the Il-78s can do transport if not involved in the aeriel refuelling role.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Then its a linear misunderstanding on that point, but the basic idea that a single role Light CAS would be coat prohibitive and useless remains.

There is a gap for the loitering arms truck and that is where my suggestion of either the Caravan or even the armed C-295 gunship might be useful.

Isn't there a disconnect in your argument here? You state light attack aircraft are cost prohibitive and then go on to propose using a C-235/295 for this role, which we don't have and will be a lot more expensive not just to buy but also operate?

Because you will need to make changez to it which will require major modifications and testing. This is both time consuming expensive and manpower intensive. You already have one project running wwnt to assemble helos locally requiring an assembly plant and new trained staff. Every capable person is utilized to maximum capacity.
So for the umpteenth time
A. Limited utility.
B. Limited use.
C. Limited prospects.
D. Man power intensive.
E. Increasing pilot attrition.
F High development costs.
G. Long latency time to develop the project.
H.Lack of money and infrastructure.( this assembly line would be different from the Mashaq one).
I. Limited demand.
J. Competing as a new provider in a niche where there is a glut
And you want to do it for 1 squadron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
A

Araz, here is what I don't agree with you ...
A. They have extreme utility in our current threat environment.
B. Goes with A
C. Not sure what you mean by limited prospects? If you are talking about B-250, then fine, lets buy Super Tucanos instead.
D. How is a turboprop manpower intensive again? We seem to be able to operate hundred of 60s era airplanes with turbojets just fine.
E. I would even argue these airplanes are much more safe then any fighter in PAF inventory bar the newer F-16s and JF-17s. And these are equipped with MB ejection seats btw.
F. Then buy one that is already developed and sold to a number of countries. Reason I posted about B-250 is as UAE has been funding its development (potential for partnership) and as there is always politics involved in arms acquisition (maybe quid-pro-quo). But the platform doesn't take away from the functionality here.
G. Again, can just buy ones already operating in this role around the world.
H. Not as costly as Mi-35s (these aircraft costs between $9-13M) and require very little infrastructure for operations.
I. Perhaps, but I have difference in opinion from you here.
J. One squadron at a minimum (since some of you keep bring up costs here). How many Mi-35s did we buy again btw?

 

[SQ8]

Isn't there a disconnect in your argument here? You state light attack aircraft are cost prohibitive and then go on to propose using a C-235/295 for this role, which we don't have and will be a lot more expensive not just to buy but also operate?

No there isnt. A dedicated light attack aircraft isn’t doing anything in peacetime. It may have some utility in a war against India but otherwise it can’t run the routine intercepts that other fighters run.
It cannot be used to train pilots and it cannot be used as the base personal transportation.
It cant do anything other than just haul weapons onto a target area and utilize them against a lightly armed enemy.

Does it make sense in a counter insurgency game and otherwise?
Yes, it is a very cost effective option for airforces with greater procurement budgets who are looking to avoid higher expenses with faster and more complex platforms and can afford to do one time purchases of such platforms.

But since the PAF has a VERY limited procurement budget that is already squeezed between more pertinent India specific upgrades, it makes zero sense for Pakistan to invest in these.

A dual role aircraft such as the Caravan or C-295 may look more expensive to operate but it offers greater flexibility of usage besides dropping munitions.
It can also transport troops from a remote location to another, it can run communication flights,it can act as a forward command station just as the Brite star C-130s do but at less cost and so on.
That gives a PAF commander lots of flexibility to carry out other tasks instead of just having one role available which is to expend munitions.