The US has a history of innovation ever since 1783 with James Franklin being one of the pioneers in his field ! The same goes for Japan where people have a lust for research ! As far as Ind is concerned its less about religion, like the rest of the world, & more about "I, me, myself" attitude ! People need dedication, sacrifice, hunger for knowledge & some sense of social security to advance in this field ! I really don't see very many Indians pursuing academic excellence without thinking about their future paychecks ! In essence there isn't a culture of selflessness that I see here which is a must for excellence at the top level & religion has nothing to do with it, infact contrary to popular belief it helps one to focus even more on what he wants to achieve so its not all bad as you say !
Post-revolution Egypt: India as a model.
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doublemaster
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In Islam working for society, country, working even to earn bread for family also considered as good deeds.
In other words its part of Islam...
Only reason muslims lagging now because they stopped studying....
timetravel
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you think the people in Japan and US are selfless in their thinking? you are so wrong. In-fact you would find them to be so selfish and materialistic and right on top of such rankings. Give me one proof that the US, European and Japanese societies and people are SELFLESS
they are at least as selfish as others if not more. but yes those are free societies and people there are not concerned with their or other's religion. While their mind is thinking of how to score better in maths, physics and how to solve the puzzles of the universe the people in country where religion and state is same were thinking about the right code of conduct for people in their country based on their right version of religion!
While a free minded person best occupation is thinking about progress and advancement, a religious minded society's best pre-occupation is whats the right thing to do in my religion,and enforcing compliance of the same across the country. They dont have time and free mental bandwidth to think of anything than religion.
boss In very simple language:
You have only one mind with limited processing abilities. either you can think about quantum physics or you can think of whether your neighbor is following true version of your religion. You only have limited mental processing power. its upto you for what purpose you want to use it.
and when you mix state and religion all of the brains bandwidth is sucked out in thinking about religious matters only.
of course there are none, except someone truly a saint ! However there is this culture of putting the task at hand before anything else i.e. if they wanna study they aren't thinking "money" all the time ! I have yet to meet someone in my life who hasn't put monetary considerations over virtually any other stuff that you can think of, including his/her own family, which is the prime reason behind this rampant corruption that we see everywhere !
WHy should any country take India as a model? 
That too a great country like egypt. A muslim country should not follow any retarded "secular" model. India is not secular by the way, but a hindutva state disguised as secular. (I know I will be labelled as a talibani mullah now 
) Egypt should to try to incorporate Islam into state system Slowly. First change the mindset of the people to implement full islam. It will bring prosperity.
As for economic reasons, I thing they can follow India to some extent. Even is people say hindu rate of growth , I like chankya nehru's state run heavy industrial policy of the 50s. Now they have BHEL & HEC etc. But a better model would be a mix of S.korea, JAPAN & china IMO.
That too a great country like egypt. A muslim country should not follow any retarded "secular" model. India is not secular by the way, but a hindutva state disguised as secular. (I know I will be labelled as a talibani mullah now ) Egypt should to try to incorporate Islam into state system Slowly. First change the mindset of the people to implement full islam. It will bring prosperity.As for economic reasons, I thing they can follow India to some extent. Even is people say hindu rate of growth , I like chankya nehru's state run heavy industrial policy of the 50s. Now they have BHEL & HEC etc. But a better model would be a mix of S.korea, JAPAN & china IMO.
livingdead
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I will not dismiss egypt like fauji, it has a big enough middle class with very young population. It has more than 10 percent religious minority too.
India is secular but will remain a hindu country (the same way UK will remain a christian country even though most dont go to church), and I believe egypt is going to be a bit like India.( a moderate muslim country if not islamic country)
But it does not need to follow India, it should just follow international laws and good behaviour as expected from a responsible country.
India is secular but will remain a hindu country (the same way UK will remain a christian country even though most dont go to church), and I believe egypt is going to be a bit like India.( a moderate muslim country if not islamic country)
But it does not need to follow India, it should just follow international laws and good behaviour as expected from a responsible country.
timetravel
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i agree to the bold part.
The problem is mixing state and religion. In other world when I start becoming concerned about the religion of my neighbour or when I start thinking whether the other person is following the right version of my religion or not. you can clearly see one cannot be a progressive person if his mind is preoccupied with such things.
somebozo
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Universities have been replaced with madrassash!
Basic biological realities have become taboo!
Free thinking has been replaced with Shariah!
Blame yourself!
timetravel
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read what you said in your post. you clearly outlined SELFLESSNESS as the reason for the scientific progress of US and Japan.but now you are saying it is not!
Also this is ridiculous to say that there are not Indians who would only want to focus on research and not on money. and obviously if you are from a middle to lower class student you have to think of money for sure. Indians are not as rich as US people you see.
but the main point still is that it is the free will and free thinking of US and Japanese people which is responsible for their great scientific progress. (and not selflessness and saintliness as you point)
a free society where people have free thinking has a chance to grow scientifically (depending upon the level of interest and dedication of its people). But a society where state and religion are mixed does not even have a chance.
timetravel
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sad and this should not happen. I strongly believe religion should be personal experience and should be left at home. It should have no place in state functioning.
what you said is what happens when you mix state with religion. It is state's duty to promote scientific institutions. If state is thinking about religion all the time then what they will promote is religious schools and institutions and that will just kill the scientific research and development.
Also you would find hundreds (if not thousands) of people who will become overnight act like the guardians of the religion and use religion to have followers and get power. These guardian would not let their followers do one thing which will loosen their grip on the masses. They would say their word is God's word to hold on to their power and grip on masses. The state cannot act against such guardians as action against them would be going against the religion, which the state itself promotes!!
religion as a tool to power and control of masses and intolerance of anything against the right version of the religion. that's the final outcome of mixing state and religion.
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it's really pity to see once the most technologically advanced nation on the planet by far is now in a deep mess. I mean pyramids was the tallest buildings for 5000 years before the Eiffel tower.
they invented things like baghdad battery, they created sphinx and pyramids that is difficult to rebuild even with today's technology and they did that with some tools made of copper and stones.
i wish them all the best
they invented things like baghdad battery, they created sphinx and pyramids that is difficult to rebuild even with today's technology and they did that with some tools made of copper and stones.
i wish them all the best
Selflessness is not a one way street where you abandon anything & everything you have ! You have to be selfless to the cause you believe in, this case innovation, where I see Ind seriously lacking !
Its actually the opposite, I see pretty much the top tier & the bottom one put money on their agenda first & then choose a career path accordingly that gives them the best returns !
Free will & free thinking are again independent of religious beliefs, or are you claiming that every inventor/scientist ever born was an atheist ? Religion inhibits research just as much as it promotes enmity i.e. it has very little effect on the individual's psyche cause if your religious beliefs sway you away from the truth then you're already standing on shaky ground !
Again society is a reflection of individual mindsets that pan across a number of people, an individual can & will influence his society but ultimately all the individuals in that society are responsible for their own actions ! State/religion is an old & dated concept that been superseded by individuality atleast that's what I feel !
timetravel
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and individuality is the biggest looser when you mix state and religion! How can you think independently when the next door neighbor tells you do this and don't do this or else I would come and harm you! obviously INDIVIDUALITY as a concept is diametrically opposite to the concept of a religious state. You cannot and will not be allowed to be yourself in a religious state.
also the mixture of state and religion affect the psyche of the whole country... now you may have one brilliant student off the record but several brilliant minds will be lost to the religious agenda.
Also the state would give no support to scientific development. its more focus would be on religious discourse. obviously without the scientific institutions and lack of culture of free thinking the nation cannot progress on scientific research and development.
Religion at individual level is good. But only at personal level.The great scientists could be religious or atheists but for all of them religion was a personal matter and not something to be imposed on others around them. Great scientists are also great philosophers and they are not constrained by the narrow tunnel vision of religion. For them there is a greater cause then religion and that is their field of study and contribution to mankind. In fact I doubt they think about religion even one second in their life. they don't have time for such non sense.
Alright I can see we have common points in there but then what's the bone of contention ?
I say an individual is perhaps more responsible than the state(as a whole) for his/her own actions so therefore the state's role is limited & religion pretty much becomes a non issue unless we're talking about riots here ! From what I see, your stand is that the state & its policies towards religion dictates how that particular society develops & so everything is held ransom to the state's policy !
Is that what its all about
timetravel
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Alright I can see we have common points in there but then what's the bone of contention ?
I say an individual is perhaps more responsible than the state(as a whole) for his/her own actions so therefore the state's role is limited & religion pretty much becomes a non issue unless we're talking about riots here ! From what I see, your stand is that the state & its policies towards religion dictates how that particular society develops & so everything is held ransom to the state's policy !
Is that what its all about
yes pretty much that's the point. religion and state should not be mixed. when I say state you think of the country alone but it also includes the individuals! The state and individuals in a country should both treat religion at a personal level and not be bothered about other person's acts and religious beliefs or try to dictate them.
That's what brings individuality and free will and gives a chance for progress and development.
Now change the equation - greater the involvement of state in religion (a religious state) and/or greater the propensity of people in a country to interfere in other's life on religious basis (i.e treating religion as most supreme aim in life) the lesser the focus and chance of scientific progress. So its a combination of both individual and state that as a whole affects the scientific outcome of a society. Overall any influence (from state or individual) which affects the free will/individuality of people will go against progress of science in that society.
Now you will always have individual and random elements who will be retrogressive and narrow minded in a country. But if the society has enough liberal minded people then it can progress. So following options follow:
1) all/high majority of people in a scoiety are retrogade and too religious (Saudi) - no scientific development possible (state probably would be religious)
2) all/high majority of people in a society are progressive (US, Japan, India etc) - high chances of scientific development and progress (state would be irreligious as people wont support anything else)
3) Sizable liberal population and minority but noticeable conservative religious population (Pakistan) - can go both ways and in such cases state has a big role to play.
if the state supports and remains irreligious and they support the liberal population it can make the country move to option 2.
But if the same state becomes religious, then it becomes powerless to act against the religious conservatives - then overtime the country moves to option 1.
But free will/Individuality is a must for scientific progress and development. Even in a country which has a non religious state only those people who are liberal and great thinkers, would be the ones to become great scientists and researchers.
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