Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Yes---Bofors indeed made the difference. They proved worth their weight in whatever metal you want to put them in.

Gandhi has been vindicated---may his soul rest in peace.

 

[batmannow]

Hi,

Yes---Bofors indeed made the difference. They proved worth their weight in whatever metal you want to put them in.

Gandhi has been vindicated---may his soul rest in peace.

off course, Bofors has its own advantages! but certnly not in mountainous wars, USA has better guns, thn why they dont used them on "TORA BORA"

why they kept ussing, B52's ?

I , think after all the "KARGILL MESS", that if PAF had been given , the chances, it could be a ,very very difficult fight for india!

 

[zombie:-)]

off course, Bofors has its own advantages! but certnly not in mountainous wars, USA has better guns, thn why they dont used them on "TORA BORA"

why they kept ussing, B52's ?

I , think after all the "KARGILL MESS", that if PAF had been given , the chances, it could be a ,very very difficult fight for india!

whatever you assume about the result of PAFs involvement in kargil will be just good for a new war of words HISTORY IS HISTORY you cant change it

 

[MastanKhan]

off course, Bofors has its own advantages! but certnly not in mountainous wars, USA has better guns, thn why they dont used them on "TORA BORA"

why they kept ussing, B52's ?

I , think after all the "KARGILL MESS", that if PAF had been given , the chances, it could be a ,very very difficult fight for india!

Hi,


Tora bora was a different scenario---where the enemy was on the run----that is where the ground troops and close air support was needed. Artillery could not have been deployed so fast.

Bofors did prove themselves in a mountain war where the enemy is holding ground.

What could the paf do---pak army needed more ground troop support and more sam's to hold their positions. Once the fighting force became orphans, they became minced meat for the enemy guns.

 

[batmannow]

Hi,


Tora bora was a different scenario---where the enemy was on the run----that is where the ground troops and close air support was needed. Artillery could not have been deployed so fast.

Bofors did prove themselves in a mountain war where the enemy is holding ground.

What could the paf do---pak army needed more ground troop support and more sam's to hold their positions. Once the fighting force became orphans, they became minced meat for the enemy guns.

hi,

!
Bofors did prove themselves in a mountain war where the enemy is holding ground.What could the paf do---pak army needed more ground troop support and more sam's to hold their positions.

this assumption is quite, wrong! yes sir! 18,000 feet above , how you can hit a target, which you cant see? i guss you need airforce in "reconnaissance" role to identify the right direction of fire. infact IA made a rain of shelling in early days of the war & without any knowledge of its targets, but as IA tried to cllimb up, when ever , from which ever side on any of the points they became simply ducks to our snnippers.
later they changed thier tactics & used the quality of thier weapons, with quantity of thier mens on the grounds.
i guss , you can say that it was a perfect combination of both "Bofors & Mirage-2000s". which made indian infantry climb up !
but for me, as been "crazy soldier" in kargill war 'Mirage-2000s" was the ultimate fighting machine, which made a huge diference there.

Mirage-2000s, were used for electronic warfare, reconnaissance and ground attack. This fighter delivers its weapons with pinpoint accuracy. In addition to carrying free-fall bombs, it also fires the laser-guided bombs with deadly effects. In fact, it was this weapon that caused considerable devastation to our bunkers on the ridges at Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo. In the Mirage attack on Muntho Dhalo,our troops suffered heavy casualties. The targets were identified along with the IA and engaged by day and by night in precision attacks by Mirage 2000s and Jaguars. Supply lines, logistic bases and strong points were destroyed. As a result, the IA was able to pursue its operations at a faster & rapid movement and with fewer risks.
To obviate the threat from SAMs, bombing was done accurately from 30,000 feet above sea level or about 10,000 feet above the terrain.The fact that the we, fired more than 100 shoulder fired SAMs against IAF aircraft indicates the great intensity of the our air defences in the area, BUT hit by SAMS in the early days of the war, IAF succsesfuly changed thier tactics & dennied locking ons to us
thus, IAF played the most important role to reach thier aims & objectives, i was a infantry man there, & i feel that if ! PAF was allowed , to counter IAF in its "reconnaissance and ground attacks", the story would be very different today.
i guss, its better to have some words from dear muradk sir! on this subject?

 

[maverick2009]

Mirage 2000 in 1999 WAS THE BEST WARPLANE available to either side as PAF only had F16 block a/b and had serious spares shortages.

Block52 will be far more capable admittedly a decade too late to effect Kargil role of PAF.

 

[MastanKhan]

H Batmannow,

I am not in disagreement with you. I was just talking about the bofors by themselves---there was a cloud regarding the purchase of bofor guns---my comments were regarding that issue. Thanks for your post.

 

[batmannow]

H Batmannow,

I am not in disagreement with you. I was just talking about the bofors by themselves---there was a cloud regarding the purchase of bofor guns---my comments were regarding that issue. Thanks for your post.

H dear , MastanKhan, sir

surly, you are the one of the best logical minds on fourm!
i was thinking, about due role of PAF in kargill era, thats it man...BOFRS is one of hell GUNS on the earth, but certenly its not the one,m which drove us, its our typical secret planning ****!

i guss , the commanders who ever planed, that KARGILL THING ! never thought about MIRRAGE 2000's EXPECTED ROLE in that war, & INDIAN use of thier Quality of weapons with ,thier Quantity mans on the right time gives me a pleasure to post this all, for me its a planning erorr thats it, but still i am ready for any of the orders, & any of new wars? BATMANNOW IS

 

[satishkumarcsc]

H dear , MastanKhan, sir

surly, you are the one of the best logical minds on fourm!
i was thinking, about due role of PAF in kargill era, thats it man...BOFRS is one of hell GUNS on the earth, but certenly its not the one,m which drove us, its our typical secret planning ****!

i guss , the commanders who ever planed, that KARGILL THING ! never thought about MIRRAGE 2000's EXPECTED ROLE in that war, & INDIAN use of thier Quality of weapons with ,thier Quantity mans on the right time gives me a pleasure to post this all, for me its a planning erorr thats it, but still i am ready for any of the orders, & any of new wars? BATMANNOW IS

It was a plan laid out by a senior ISI agent during Zia's period. This happened after the Siachen incident. Zia was intelligent and he asked the ofiicer what would happen if the air force comes in and the Indians open another front. The officer didn't have an answer for that. So this was labelled top secret and thrown into the archive. Musharaff dug it out and used this. It was planned in 1987 i suppose.

 

[batmannow]

It was a plan laid out by a senior ISI agent during Zia's period. This happened after the Siachen incident. Zia was intelligent and he asked the ofiicer what would happen if the air force comes in and the Indians open another front. The officer didn't have an answer for that. So this was labelled top secret and thrown into the archive. Musharaff dug it out and used this. It was planned in 1987 i suppose.

satishkumarcsc sir,
i guss you are, very wrong... bythe way we were disscussing 'Quality or Quantity", not kargill war or its planning !
i gave the situation of "kargill war" just a example.. where india used its resources cleverly ("Quality or Quantity") wise!thats it.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

satishkumarcsc sir,
i guss you are, very wrong... bythe way we were disscussing 'Quality or Quantity", not kargill war or its planning !
i gave the situation of "kargill war" just a example.. where india used its resources cleverly ("Quality or Quantity") wise!thats it.

I am sorry sir, I would stick to the topic in future.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

A-O-A,
Problem is not just the quality or qunatity for Pakistan Air Force. Problem is somewhere else. In my view probelm lies in our departments of Pakistan Army who evaluate military operations. Why by taking advantages in 1948, 1965 and in 1999 we lost. Siachin was total failure for us. Always remember it is not win if you have damaged your opponet a lot. Only that player will win who has achived his objectives & sorry to say that was india who achieved always.
Remember histroy you will find answer.

Why Mahmud Ghaznavi had to attack india 17 times because of political and not religious reasons & last one was a final blow?
Because Hindu Rajas and Maharajas after each defeat made a peace deal with Mahmud Ghaznavi and then violated again and again. They created problems, infiltrated troops in west border (other side of sindh river) regions in emperor of Mahmud Ghaznavi. Then he decided enough is enough "Final blow".
Now come to the point. How india deal with us. In each conflict they say. Ok we should solve our problems on table by creating suitable atmoshpere . Pakistan also agrees. When they come on table they say atmoshpere is not favourable. Now make atmoshpere suitable. When every thing is Ok. They master Bombay attack, they creat problems in pakistan. ...............................!!!! and destabilize every thing.
Is'nt need india a final blow!!!
wasalam

 

[Keysersoze]

quality is good choice, but atm paf has nothing that can match the mki, and the upgraded mig-29s and m2ks. and by my estimates with the 30 mig-29k of the navy's combined with the a/f's than thats around 120+100+50=270 modern air craft compared with the 20 jf-17, and 40 f-16a.

270/60 is a bad ratio and AIM-120C5 wont arrive until 2011.

but by 2015 this may improve when paf gets

120 jf-17s
60 f-16
40 j-10

thats 220 a/c vs...

240 mki
120 mig-29 (counting IN 20+30 options which were exercised)
50 m2k
70 lca
40 mrca

520

the odds do improve...

but u must also have good support air craft like aewacs and refuellers

Wrong and wrong
For starters the aim120's are already here. And since you are quoting things that haven't arrived for the IAF (And in some cases may never arrive)why are you not quoting the things that have not arrived for the PAF? have you not heard of the Indian procurement system?
Refuellers are on their way and so are AWACS of multiple types enoug to cover almost all of PAK
Also you forget serviceability rates I suggest you check them for the IAF

Your post has no merit.......do you not think we have discussed this in detail before?

 

[MZUBAIR]

Quality Vs Quanity for PAF against IAF.
Lets take some surrent states and states till 2010.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI Flanker-H Current 120 acquire 130 more
HAL Tejas Current 0 20 are on order
Mirage fleet Current 51
MiG-29 Fulcrum Current 62
SEPECAT Jaguar Current 140
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-27 Current 120
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 Current 260

Total around Current 753

India is going to buy 126 MRCF in 2010/2015
Su - 30 Mki 120 in 2010/2015

In 2010 50 Su - 30 Mki will make total 50 + 753 = 803

__________________________________________________ ______________


JF-17 Currrnt 18 Total of 250 expected
Chengdu J-10B Current 0 36 ordered, to be delivered in 2009 expected
F-7 current 192
A-5 Current 41
F-16 Current 44 24 will be recieved in 2009 / 2010
Mirage III Current 121
Mirage 5 Current 60

Total Current 476

In 2010 (till March) PAF will recieve Total 30 JF-17, 24 F-16 & 36 J-10B

In 2010 Total 90 + 476 = 566

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[Zob]

keyzersoze....i never knew the AIM120-C5s have arrived....i think thought they were supposed to arrive by the last quarter of 2009....if they here that igreat news finally PAF has got some BVRs....please give me a link if u can that says they have arrived....