Poll for the Pakistani members

[Ahmad]

I hope non-Pakistanis aren't voting here.

Edited: i can see the poll now.

 

[Dalai Lama]

I hope non-Pakistanis aren't voting here.

Should have made the poll results public.

 

[hindukush]

indians should be banned for a day so that they dont participate

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I hope non-Pakistanis aren't voting here.

Oops ...sorry

 

[All-Green]

cut ties with the bloody american terrorists.

We should define our national policy in vivid terms and ensure that we base all our ties whether external or internal, based on our stability, prosperity and development.
In this we need not only to rid ourselves of any slavery of the west in terms of our policy but also take on all the militants who are operating as non state entities in the garb of Islam.
This is Pakistan and not the experiment of any western country or the property of the tafkiri rascals.
This is our motherland and we should not surrender our sovereignty to any country or any group.
Our tendency to tolerate a group which violates our sovereignty based on their proclaimed ideology is a retarded thing to do and only serves to destroy ourselves.
This tendency actually provides space to those whose agenda is not the betterment of Pakistan or its people.

There should be no ideological surrender on our part, whether to the US or to the Taliban.
We are neither and have a vision of Pakistan as per our founding father, which we shall pursue.
Whomsoever cooperates with us on the vision of a strong, stable and prosperous Pakistan is someone we can build a relationship with.
Anyone who opposes this directly or indirectly is our foe and does not matter what banner he flies.

Let us define our policy clearly and then stick to our principles and our guns.
Our priority should be to eliminate militancy, improve education and health care, build infrastructure, promote regional trade and to establish much better ties with all our neighboring countries.

 

[Spring Onion]

LOLZZ how do we know the bharatis dint poll in it ? can anyone post how many Indians voted ?

 

[AAtish]

One thing that i shall like to explain to the members.

I am not quoting the whole post for the sake of space.. but i have given the first line for reference..

This is the first post I have come across which speaks of possible solutions comprehensively and makes sense, kudos for that All-Green.. Well done!

Going through you post, it was nice to see that there was a systematic approach to solve problems of Pakistan in long run.

I accept that, this should be the future planning for Pakistan, few questions though..

1) Who is going to implement these future plans? Current Government? or friendly opposition? I highly doubt that.

2) Lets say, they do take the step to give ultimatum to so-called Jihadis; Within the nation, who is going to trust them that they are doing it for the sake of Pakistan, and not on the requirement of US?

3) If you see the history of Pakistan, most of the old-time Jihadi organisations started due to Kashmir issue, Kashmir is a very important, historical, and sensitive issue for Pakistanis. As India is not acting according to UN resolutions on Kashmir (documented fact), do you think it is possible to stop recruitment of innocent people by these Jihadi Organizations on the basis of Kashmir issue? For e.g. LeT hasn’t interfered with WoT till now, nor have done any in-country blasting or killing, why is US representatives talking about it? Can you satisfy the Pakistani nation that US requirement is valid?

4) If, let’s assume, for the sake of understanding, Pakistan Government announces strict action against all Jihadi organisations, will US and UN accept it and take out its bases, on-ground boots and intelligence network out of Pakistan? If yes, what is the guarantee for that?

5) If, let’s say, for the sake of argument, ALL Jihadi organisations are banned and warned to throw down their weapons, and they did, what will happen to their leaders and members? Will they be prosecuted or given freedom to live peacefully? (Very important, please think deeply about it)

These are, but few questions which will arise for sure, I am not saying that your suggestions are impractical or impossible, they are, in all means, possible, but there is a lot to be clarified and done before these actions are taken. I will try to cover a few of them:

1) Pakistani nation has to be taken in confidence about sincerity of the Government, at the moment everyone is questioning about sincerity of Govt. as well as PA and ISI.

2) Foreign invaders are to be evacuated from the country, giving people the trust that Sovereignty of the country will not be compromised.

3) Extra judicial killing of civilians by US attacks has to stop in order to make civilians believe that UN and US want peace, and they take people of Pakistan like humans not as “collateral damage”.

4) Civilised and democratic countries (allied nations) have to come clean about their approach towards WoT, its definition, and its Goals. War is not only fought with weapons, it can also be fought on table, and Independence of Pakistan is a living proof of that.

5) Allied nations have to keep everything transparent, no backdoor policies, no lies, no trickery, no back-biting and back-stabbing.

At the end, I would like to add that I truly hope we can implement the steps you have mentioned in our country. I truly hope that this terrible situation is resolved without any further bloodshed.

I would also like to add that as per my readings, the only way to finish this WoT, and to stop people from becoming terrorists, is to bring them to table, take the root cause out. World has to solve the long pending problems including Palestine and Kashmir.

Anarchy and retaliation cannot be solved by Wars. We learned that from history, in both the world wars, that was the sole reason for UN coming into being. This is exactly what US is doing right now, its increasing anarchy and chaos, which results in retaliation.

The world’s approach to the problem is basically wrong!!

 

[Leader]

One thing that i shall like to explain to the members.
Times have changed and our strategy which we used, needs to be revised in light of new developments.
Not for sake of USA or rest of the world, but for our sake do we need to do this.
We have exhausted many options, yet we are not letting go of these options.
If we planned on coercing militants into talking and negotiating...enough time has been spent without much result except temporary relief.
There has been no change in ideology of the Jihadi/militant groups.
Without action all these parties have took us for granted...this has to end.

The past few years and certain events have clearly highlighted the fact that our attempts to work around the militant problem to target AQ and more openly terrorist factions has not worked wonders...
True, we captured a lot of AQ and associated terrorists, however we have not effectively eliminated the ideological safe haven which gives space and recruitment base to militant factions...which eventually perpetrate acts of terrorism and spin out of control.
the problem is with the gray area which still allows many militants to survive in the name of Islam. These militant bands have no issues with becoming anti Pakistan and will never be truly loyal to Pakistan.
They are actually opposed to any authority since they are criminals and their survival depends upon chaos.
The recent cold blooded murders of few people, the most significant of whom was Col Imam...has revealed a scenario which actually was feared since quite a while now. Time is running out for talks, it may already have run out. The more you delay an action against the militancy as a whole, the more credibility shall be gained by such militants who profess solidarity with Muslims on one hand and do not shy away from killing the Muslims on the other hand. These militants are not going to fade away if left unchecked, they shall seek space wherever they can exert their hold. Despite the atrocities in Swat, how many good Taliban or militant leaders/clerics took on the TTP or even condemned them?
Does it not signify that as long as an entity has a professed ideology of fight for Islam…it shall be tolerated by all the other Jihadi groups whether it butchers innocent men, women and children in swat or any part of Pakistan.
So the Jihadis say they are fighting to save Muslims, however they do not fight a Jihadi group when it goes on a Muslim killing spree?
What does this tell us?

The Taliban are no longer under control of any person, Omar used to treat Col Imam like a father figure, yet despite this you could see Hakimullah Mehsud in the video of Col Imam's murder. Despite Col Imam's status...the TTP has not been attacked by any other militant group including the Haqqanis, the Afghan Taliban etc.; does that not clearly say what the situation has come down to?
If we wait any longer, the seemingly neutral militants will see our inaction as weakness and we shall lose our chance to coerce them into surrendering.
Pakistani state cannot afford to give time to any militant party in hopes of reining them in via former channels which were established since Afghan Jihad.
The new Taliban are no more under control of Omar or any other party and have actually no interest in a stable Afghanistan or Pakistan at all.

Pakistan has to clean house for our sake, we need to give a final warning to anyone and everyone including Haqqani or whomsoever is yet undecided about whether to lay down arms or not.
We cannot waste time on these people, one innocent Pakistani is a thousand times more precious than these rascals who are well funded and thriving on lots of illegal activities.
If they are not willing to step aside and lay down their weapons, we should eliminate them as rebels and enemies of the state and its citizens.

We have tried for many years now to talk some sense into many factions, however eventually all of them had to be handled militarily.
Be it the rascal Fazlullah, Sufi Muhammad, Naik Muhammad, Baitullah Mehsud etc...
They may have different agendas but their methods and their intolerance clearly illustrates the simple fact that all of them are birds of a feather and are well aware of the fact that they can only exist at the cost of Pakistan and if Pakistan becomes stable they shall be denied breathing space.
It is a simple equation, either this parasite kills us or we kill it before it consumes us.

To me the steps we should take in order of priority

1) Take on the militant support structure
They are truly a minority but due to funding and by virtue of being very vocal are seen as very strong...they are only as strong as we let them become.
I think we need to build cases and try those wonderful Clerics/Muftis/Maulanas in court who are promoting sectarian intolerance, violence and militancy...these traitors of Islam have created a situation whereby intolerance is actually being bred in society and paves way for extremism, militancy and terrorism.
In this our police and judiciary have to come into play, no more excuses please.
This is extremely important since it leaves no Grey area for the militants to hide into and justify their existence based on hate and intolerance!
The national narrative and resulting policy has to make things black and white for the simple man and eliminate the doubts which have plagued us!
We need our legislation to work with the judiciary and iron out any deficiencies in the system which has tolerated these goons without any action.
Law should be clear and implemented with an iron fist in this case.
The support structure has to be weakened and eliminated in order to make the military action fruitful.
Military action should likewise be taken anywhere and everywhere where the police and judiciary has no reach.

2) Military Action against all parties not willing to lay down arms
Talks with all parties in the motherland should be based on their unconditional surrender, the time for a soft approach by using Omar or any such senior leader is gone now as far as overall control is concerned, since the groups are independent entities infused with anti Pakistan emotions built upon hard cash ofcourse.
A warning should be given to all the factions that we are going to clean up and if you mobilize men and try to exert any sort of influence on the locals, you shall be taken out as rebels of the state.

3) Final advice to original Afghan Taliban
Our final advice to the Afghan Taliban should be that come to the table and talk with the current Afghan government; we should help them in the table talks over reasonable demands which are in line with betterment of the region, but time for war is over!
They did not listen when we asked them to hand over Osama and millions paid the price in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Is one man who claims to be Mujahid worth so many innocents?
Does a Mujahid who claims to save the innocents cause them to die in order to save his hide?
No more stupid arrogance which gets others killed needlessly.
They should swallow their pride and talk now before it is too late.
If things continue like this neither the Afghan Taliban nor Pakistan would have anything to gain except looking at a ravaged land devoid of a prosperous future.
A land which would only suit the likes of Al Qaeda and the many bloody terrorists who operate under different names but are united in their objective, the dismemberment of any authority in Afghanistan or Pakistan.
With this offer we should part ways with the Afghan Taliban and let them decide which road they want to take.

4) Normalization of Ties with rest of the world via clear cut policy and transparent action for a militancy free Pakistan
Our ties with USA or any other country should be based on strong principles and in line with our national policy, we have failed to define our policy to date in clear terms and that is causing confusion regarding our intentions.
Our intent needs to be clear, we are not going to allow Pakistan to become a safe haven for militants...period!
We lament Afghan Jihad and truly so ... however why have we not learnt the lesson ourselves?
We blame gun culture, militancy and no hope for a better morrow as the cause of today's mess...however why do we not attempt more emphatically to clean this culture?
Why after so many years we are still confused?
Today some of the militants may not be against Pakistan, but that is also only in terms of not actively attacking Pakistan.
If Pakistan tries to disarm them, be assured that they will attack you.
Not much hope in the long run from such goons and they are mostly guns for hire...
We have seen how easy it is for these militants to openly butcher Pakistanis...all of them can turn on us, even if it suits them not to at this point in time.
Hard cash shall change their minds about killing fellow Muslims and this is evident from the rise of TTP.

However by taking action we shall also ensure that we do not delegate our authority to any other force.
If we take action, there is no way the world can justify foreign intervention, if we want to discourage any foreign adventure...we have one clear cut option.

It is ridiculous that we are thinking about whether WOT is our war or not, the time for that has gone by and still we are thinking.
The militants have no respect for Pakistan and any authority which asks them to lay down arms... it is time we also stop respecting them!

Our policy of buying time and trying to isolate the militants has worked in some cases but overall it has not gained much in way or removing militancy from our country, at best we have influenced 10-20% of the militant factions from attacking us...however this has been at the cost of removing the gray area and also at the cost of how the world views Pakistan (including all our allies and not just one or two countries).
These militants can attack any country in our neighborhood and can ruin our relations with any or all countries in the world.
So why should we tolerate them if they are not yet able to lay down arms?

We should not allow Pakistan to be used as an anvil against the blows of the twisted/anarchist bloody hammer of a failed Salafist/Tafkiri ideology.
An ideology propagated by some Arabs who despised their own governments but instead of changing things via the difficult but peaceful way, have gone about destroying the world.
In Egypt where this ideology was born, we have already seen that people can exert influence without resorting to terrorism.
The Arab spring has already proven that this path chosen by Al Zawahiri and Osama is not necessary and will never ever serve any purpose other than weakening and destroying the countries they are claiming to rescue from the clutches of the great Satan.
It is a failed ideology which is going to set ablaze all Muslim countries instead of making them stronger.
It is a failed ideology which has destroyed peace in our region and sacrificed so many lives and twisted so many minds.
A failed ideology in which the so called great sheikhs and leaders of these so called brave Mujahids are hiding and instead getting innocents killed in the thousands upon thousands, to what purpose?
What do these terrorist and militant groups know about honor?
They have coffers of cash and stashes of heroin and have all the latest weaponry etc...will they ever stop even if USA leaves?
I think we all know the answer to that, after all they have killed many times more local Muslims than the foreign forces they declare as enemies.

We first have to clean house and make it clear to all the world that Pakistan is in no way going to tolerate non state actors who can use its territory to launch attacks within and outside Pakistan.
Once this posture is translated into action, all our dealings will be based on a much stronger position and we shall not be the subject of criticism and isolation, which is hurting us tremendously on all fronts.
We can then rebuke all parties concerned, including USA if we feel someone is double dealing and not contributing to the regional stability.
However our current situation renders such a stance impossible and we need to change our current situation in order to gain strength and leverage, for our sake.

Since we are already advocating talks, it is better that we do not be at complete loggerheads with USA and current Afghan government, but try to influence in a positive manner in the proposed talks between all the groups willing to work for a better Afghanistan...diplomacy may not have been our forte but after the carnage we have been afflicted by...it is best we learn it...fast!

whats the difference between your analysis and Rehman Malik's ?

 

[Porus]

1. Should Pakistan cut ties with the US?
2. Should Pakistan attack the Afghan Taliban?
3. Should Lt-Gen Pasha step down as the ISI chief?

1. Hell no! What an absurd suggestion.
2. Pakistan should stop pampering Pakistan Taliban first, like Haqqani Network and Quetta Shura.(whoever they are wherever they come from, their base is in Pak)
3. Hell Yes! Get rid of the incompetent and inefficients Khakis.

 

[All-Green]

whats the difference between your analysis and Rehman Malik's ?

Grow up!
Your needless and baseless sarcasm may only serve to amuse yourself, at the obvious cost of any notion of respect you hope to gain.

Learn some respect.

 

[Leader]

Grow up!
Your needless and baseless sarcasm may only serve to amuse yourself, at the obvious cost of any notion of respect you hope to gain.

Learn some respect.

I was serious. both of you appear to be incapable to learn from history. military operations is never an option against your own people...

 

[Time Assassin]

Taliban should not be in Pakistan!!! They either obey our laws for face our wrath. USA should not be our Allies. We should cut of all ties to the nation, it's brought us down and they will eventually backstab us anyway.

Haqqani group could prove useful to us, they are smarter than their counterparts The Al Qeada and Taliban.

ISI needs to stop being a state within a state. We need their full collaboration, especially since the country depends on them. If this means fqiring the leader than do so. But we desperatly need them, what i mean by this the Pakistan People need them not the Pakistan Politician, this current corrupt goverment should be assassinated by the ISI.

 

[AAtish]

I was serious. both of you appear to be incapable to learn from history. military operations is never an option against your own people...

Because you said both.. i will respond.. Please read the posts again.. especially the ending two paragraphs of my post..

 

[Safriz]

Best would be to look elsewhere for trade,research and diplomatic relations..There is big wide world beyond USA...All our efforts are aimed at USA and Europe,that never works..South America..east Asia..full of small countries ..ful of opportunities..For example..ever heard of Trinidad? Too much oil and petroleum related products and open for business and investment...I been there and found it full of Indian businessmen,but no Pakistani..All pakistani businessmen may have been applying and failing their application for USA visa..while Indians look around the world and avail opportunities.

 

[Madmen]

I don't think it would be wise to attack the Haqqani network. I do think for the long term benefit of Pakistan they should be pressured to stop carrying out any attacks in Afghanistan(that's if they do?) also Pakistan should have a general policy for disarmament of the whole of FATA.