Poll for the Pakistani members

[S.M.R]

How do i vote?

 

[muse]

A bunch of people are responding with "cut off ties" and such -- please pay attention to what it is that the poll is about:

It's about whether Pakistan should launch operations against the Mullah Omar Talib and the so called Haqqani group (so called, because they do not call themselves "the Haqqani group" -- and by the way which one is pink )

 

[All-Green]

One thing that i shall like to explain to the members.
Times have changed and our strategy which we used, needs to be revised in light of new developments.
Not for sake of USA or rest of the world, but for our sake do we need to do this.
We have exhausted many options, yet we are not letting go of these options.
If we planned on coercing militants into talking and negotiating...enough time has been spent without much result except temporary relief.
There has been no change in ideology of the Jihadi/militant groups.
Without action all these parties have took us for granted...this has to end.

The past few years and certain events have clearly highlighted the fact that our attempts to work around the militant problem to target AQ and more openly terrorist factions has not worked wonders...
True, we captured a lot of AQ and associated terrorists, however we have not effectively eliminated the ideological safe haven which gives space and recruitment base to militant factions...which eventually perpetrate acts of terrorism and spin out of control.
the problem is with the gray area which still allows many militants to survive in the name of Islam. These militant bands have no issues with becoming anti Pakistan and will never be truly loyal to Pakistan.
They are actually opposed to any authority since they are criminals and their survival depends upon chaos.
The recent cold blooded murders of few people, the most significant of whom was Col Imam...has revealed a scenario which actually was feared since quite a while now. Time is running out for talks, it may already have run out. The more you delay an action against the militancy as a whole, the more credibility shall be gained by such militants who profess solidarity with Muslims on one hand and do not shy away from killing the Muslims on the other hand. These militants are not going to fade away if left unchecked, they shall seek space wherever they can exert their hold. Despite the atrocities in Swat, how many good Taliban or militant leaders/clerics took on the TTP or even condemned them?
Does it not signify that as long as an entity has a professed ideology of fight for Islam…it shall be tolerated by all the other Jihadi groups whether it butchers innocent men, women and children in swat or any part of Pakistan.
So the Jihadis say they are fighting to save Muslims, however they do not fight a Jihadi group when it goes on a Muslim killing spree?
What does this tell us?

The Taliban are no longer under control of any person, Omar used to treat Col Imam like a father figure, yet despite this you could see Hakimullah Mehsud in the video of Col Imam's murder. Despite Col Imam's status...the TTP has not been attacked by any other militant group including the Haqqanis, the Afghan Taliban etc.; does that not clearly say what the situation has come down to?
If we wait any longer, the seemingly neutral militants will see our inaction as weakness and we shall lose our chance to coerce them into surrendering.
Pakistani state cannot afford to give time to any militant party in hopes of reining them in via former channels which were established since Afghan Jihad.
The new Taliban are no more under control of Omar or any other party and have actually no interest in a stable Afghanistan or Pakistan at all.

Pakistan has to clean house for our sake, we need to give a final warning to anyone and everyone including Haqqani or whomsoever is yet undecided about whether to lay down arms or not.
We cannot waste time on these people, one innocent Pakistani is a thousand times more precious than these rascals who are well funded and thriving on lots of illegal activities.
If they are not willing to step aside and lay down their weapons, we should eliminate them as rebels and enemies of the state and its citizens.

We have tried for many years now to talk some sense into many factions, however eventually all of them had to be handled militarily.
Be it the rascal Fazlullah, Sufi Muhammad, Naik Muhammad, Baitullah Mehsud etc...
They may have different agendas but their methods and their intolerance clearly illustrates the simple fact that all of them are birds of a feather and are well aware of the fact that they can only exist at the cost of Pakistan and if Pakistan becomes stable they shall be denied breathing space.
It is a simple equation, either this parasite kills us or we kill it before it consumes us.

To me the steps we should take in order of priority

1) Take on the militant support structure
They are truly a minority but due to funding and by virtue of being very vocal are seen as very strong...they are only as strong as we let them become.
I think we need to build cases and try those wonderful Clerics/Muftis/Maulanas in court who are promoting sectarian intolerance, violence and militancy...these traitors of Islam have created a situation whereby intolerance is actually being bred in society and paves way for extremism, militancy and terrorism.
In this our police and judiciary have to come into play, no more excuses please.
This is extremely important since it leaves no Grey area for the militants to hide into and justify their existence based on hate and intolerance!
The national narrative and resulting policy has to make things black and white for the simple man and eliminate the doubts which have plagued us!
We need our legislation to work with the judiciary and iron out any deficiencies in the system which has tolerated these goons without any action.
Law should be clear and implemented with an iron fist in this case.
The support structure has to be weakened and eliminated in order to make the military action fruitful.
Military action should likewise be taken anywhere and everywhere where the police and judiciary has no reach.

2) Military Action against all parties not willing to lay down arms
Talks with all parties in the motherland should be based on their unconditional surrender, the time for a soft approach by using Omar or any such senior leader is gone now as far as overall control is concerned, since the groups are independent entities infused with anti Pakistan emotions built upon hard cash ofcourse.
A warning should be given to all the factions that we are going to clean up and if you mobilize men and try to exert any sort of influence on the locals, you shall be taken out as rebels of the state.

3) Final advice to original Afghan Taliban
Our final advice to the Afghan Taliban should be that come to the table and talk with the current Afghan government; we should help them in the table talks over reasonable demands which are in line with betterment of the region, but time for war is over!
They did not listen when we asked them to hand over Osama and millions paid the price in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Is one man who claims to be Mujahid worth so many innocents?
Does a Mujahid who claims to save the innocents cause them to die in order to save his hide?
No more stupid arrogance which gets others killed needlessly.
They should swallow their pride and talk now before it is too late.
If things continue like this neither the Afghan Taliban nor Pakistan would have anything to gain except looking at a ravaged land devoid of a prosperous future.
A land which would only suit the likes of Al Qaeda and the many bloody terrorists who operate under different names but are united in their objective, the dismemberment of any authority in Afghanistan or Pakistan.
With this offer we should part ways with the Afghan Taliban and let them decide which road they want to take.

4) Normalization of Ties with rest of the world via clear cut policy and transparent action for a militancy free Pakistan
Our ties with USA or any other country should be based on strong principles and in line with our national policy, we have failed to define our policy to date in clear terms and that is causing confusion regarding our intentions.
Our intent needs to be clear, we are not going to allow Pakistan to become a safe haven for militants...period!
We lament Afghan Jihad and truly so ... however why have we not learnt the lesson ourselves?
We blame gun culture, militancy and no hope for a better morrow as the cause of today's mess...however why do we not attempt more emphatically to clean this culture?
Why after so many years we are still confused?
Today some of the militants may not be against Pakistan, but that is also only in terms of not actively attacking Pakistan.
If Pakistan tries to disarm them, be assured that they will attack you.
Not much hope in the long run from such goons and they are mostly guns for hire...
We have seen how easy it is for these militants to openly butcher Pakistanis...all of them can turn on us, even if it suits them not to at this point in time.
Hard cash shall change their minds about killing fellow Muslims and this is evident from the rise of TTP.

However by taking action we shall also ensure that we do not delegate our authority to any other force.
If we take action, there is no way the world can justify foreign intervention, if we want to discourage any foreign adventure...we have one clear cut option.

It is ridiculous that we are thinking about whether WOT is our war or not, the time for that has gone by and still we are thinking.
The militants have no respect for Pakistan and any authority which asks them to lay down arms... it is time we also stop respecting them!

Our policy of buying time and trying to isolate the militants has worked in some cases but overall it has not gained much in way or removing militancy from our country, at best we have influenced 10-20% of the militant factions from attacking us...however this has been at the cost of removing the gray area and also at the cost of how the world views Pakistan (including all our allies and not just one or two countries).
These militants can attack any country in our neighborhood and can ruin our relations with any or all countries in the world.
So why should we tolerate them if they are not yet able to lay down arms?

We should not allow Pakistan to be used as an anvil against the blows of the twisted/anarchist bloody hammer of a failed Salafist/Tafkiri ideology.
An ideology propagated by some Arabs who despised their own governments but instead of changing things via the difficult but peaceful way, have gone about destroying the world.
In Egypt where this ideology was born, we have already seen that people can exert influence without resorting to terrorism.
The Arab spring has already proven that this path chosen by Al Zawahiri and Osama is not necessary and will never ever serve any purpose other than weakening and destroying the countries they are claiming to rescue from the clutches of the great Satan.
It is a failed ideology which is going to set ablaze all Muslim countries instead of making them stronger.
It is a failed ideology which has destroyed peace in our region and sacrificed so many lives and twisted so many minds.
A failed ideology in which the so called great sheikhs and leaders of these so called brave Mujahids are hiding and instead getting innocents killed in the thousands upon thousands, to what purpose?
What do these terrorist and militant groups know about honor?
They have coffers of cash and stashes of heroin and have all the latest weaponry etc...will they ever stop even if USA leaves?
I think we all know the answer to that, after all they have killed many times more local Muslims than the foreign forces they declare as enemies.

We first have to clean house and make it clear to all the world that Pakistan is in no way going to tolerate non state actors who can use its territory to launch attacks within and outside Pakistan.
Once this posture is translated into action, all our dealings will be based on a much stronger position and we shall not be the subject of criticism and isolation, which is hurting us tremendously on all fronts.
We can then rebuke all parties concerned, including USA if we feel someone is double dealing and not contributing to the regional stability.
However our current situation renders such a stance impossible and we need to change our current situation in order to gain strength and leverage, for our sake.

Since we are already advocating talks, it is better that we do not be at complete loggerheads with USA and current Afghan government, but try to influence in a positive manner in the proposed talks between all the groups willing to work for a better Afghanistan...diplomacy may not have been our forte but after the carnage we have been afflicted by...it is best we learn it...fast!

 

[S_O_C_O_M]

1. Should Pakistan cut ties with the US?
2. Should Pakistan attack the Afghan Taliban?
3. Should Lt-Gen Pasha step down as the ISI chief?

1.) NO

2.) YES

3.) NO

 

[S.M.R]

1. Should Pakistan cut ties with the US?
2. Should Pakistan attack the Afghan Taliban?
3. Should Lt-Gen Pasha step down as the ISI chief?

1.Yes
2.No
3.No.

 

[All-Green]

I think the question should be.
"Should we act against all non State actors operating out of Pakistan regardless of past affiliations?"
My answer is "Hell Yes".

You see, these Militants despite using Islam as their banner have shown far more flexibility than us.
They got paid in USD not so long ago and served the very USA whom they call the great Satan today...all in the name of Islam.
I think we should stop letting these rascals pretend to be the owners of Islam, they are certainly not.
Kick them out of our country!

 

[hindukush]

we should cut ties with USA.....No need for the rest two......cut the nato supply immediately and permanently and that will do the job....next time they voilate Pakistani airspace...shove cruise missiles up their arses from the bases they fly their planes from .....or nuke israel

 

[fatman17]

One thing that i shall like to explain to the members.
Times have changed and our strategy which we used, needs to be revised in light of new developments.
Not for sake of USA or rest of the world, but for our sake do we need to do this.
We have exhausted many options, yet we are not letting go of these options.
If we planned on coercing militants into talking and negotiating...enough time has been spent without much result except temporary relief.
There has been no change in ideology of the Jihadi/militant groups.
Without action all these parties have took us for granted...this has to end.

The past few years and certain events have clearly highlighted the fact that our attempts to work around the militant problem to target AQ and more openly terrorist factions has not worked wonders...
True, we captured a lot of AQ and associated terrorists, however we have not effectively eliminated the ideological safe haven which gives space and recruitment base to militant factions...which eventually perpetrate acts of terrorism and spin out of control.
the problem is with the gray area which still allows many militants to survive in the name of Islam. These militant bands have no issues with becoming anti Pakistan and will never be truly loyal to Pakistan.
They are actually opposed to any authority since they are criminals and their survival depends upon chaos.
The recent cold blooded murders of few people, the most significant of whom was Col Imam...has revealed a scenario which actually was feared since quite a while now. Time is running out for talks, it may already have run out. The more you delay an action against the militancy as a whole, the more credibility shall be gained by such militants who profess solidarity with Muslims on one hand and do not shy away from killing the Muslims on the other hand. These militants are not going to fade away if left unchecked, they shall seek space wherever they can exert their hold. Despite the atrocities in Swat, how many good Taliban or militant leaders/clerics took on the TTP or even condemned them?
Does it not signify that as long as an entity has a professed ideology of fight for Islam…it shall be tolerated by all the other Jihadi groups whether it butchers innocent men, women and children in swat or any part of Pakistan.
So the Jihadis say they are fighting to save Muslims, however they do not fight a Jihadi group when it goes on a Muslim killing spree?
What does this tell us?

The Taliban are no longer under control of any person, Omar used to treat Col Imam like a father figure, yet despite this you could see Hakimullah Mehsud in the video of Col Imam's murder. Despite Col Imam's status...the TTP has not been attacked by any other militant group including the Haqqanis, the Afghan Taliban etc.; does that not clearly say what the situation has come down to?
If we wait any longer, the seemingly neutral militants will see our inaction as weakness and we shall lose our chance to coerce them into surrendering.
Pakistani state cannot afford to give time to any militant party in hopes of reining them in via former channels which were established since Afghan Jihad.
The new Taliban are no more under control of Omar or any other party and have actually no interest in a stable Afghanistan or Pakistan at all.

Pakistan has to clean house for our sake, we need to give a final warning to anyone and everyone including Haqqani or whomsoever is yet undecided about whether to lay down arms or not.
We cannot waste time on these people, one innocent Pakistani is a thousand times more precious than these rascals who are well funded and thriving on lots of illegal activities.
If they are not willing to step aside and lay down their weapons, we should eliminate them as rebels and enemies of the state and its citizens.

We have tried for many years now to talk some sense into many factions, however eventually all of them had to be handled militarily.
Be it the rascal Fazlullah, Sufi Muhammad, Naik Muhammad, Baitullah Mehsud etc...
They may have different agendas but their methods and their intolerance clearly illustrates the simple fact that all of them are birds of a feather and are well aware of the fact that they can only exist at the cost of Pakistan and if Pakistan becomes stable they shall be denied breathing space.
It is a simple equation, either this parasite kills us or we kill it before it consumes us.

To me the steps we should take in order of priority

1) Take on the militant support structure
They are truly a minority but due to funding and by virtue of being very vocal are seen as very strong...they are only as strong as we let them become.
I think we need to build cases and try those wonderful Clerics/Muftis/Maulanas in court who are promoting sectarian intolerance, violence and militancy...these traitors of Islam have created a situation whereby intolerance is actually being bred in society and paves way for extremism, militancy and terrorism.
In this our police and judiciary have to come into play, no more excuses please.
This is extremely important since it leaves no Grey area for the militants to hide into and justify their existence based on hate and intolerance!
The national narrative and resulting policy has to make things black and white for the simple man and eliminate the doubts which have plagued us!
We need our legislation to work with the judiciary and iron out any deficiencies in the system which has tolerated these goons without any action.
Law should be clear and implemented with an iron fist in this case.
The support structure has to be weakened and eliminated in order to make the military action fruitful.
Military action should likewise be taken anywhere and everywhere where the police and judiciary has no reach.

2) Military Action against all parties not willing to lay down arms
Talks with all parties in the motherland should be based on their unconditional surrender, the time for a soft approach by using Omar or any such senior leader is gone now as far as overall control is concerned, since the groups are independent entities infused with anti Pakistan emotions built upon hard cash ofcourse.
A warning should be given to all the factions that we are going to clean up and if you mobilize men and try to exert any sort of influence on the locals, you shall be taken out as rebels of the state.

3) Final advice to original Afghan Taliban
Our final advice to the Afghan Taliban should be that come to the table and talk with the current Afghan government; we should help them in the table talks over reasonable demands which are in line with betterment of the region, but time for war is over!
They did not listen when we asked them to hand over Osama and millions paid the price in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Is one man who claims to be Mujahid worth so many innocents?
Does a Mujahid who claims to save the innocents cause them to die in order to save his hide?
No more stupid arrogance which gets others killed needlessly.
They should swallow their pride and talk now before it is too late.
If things continue like this neither the Afghan Taliban nor Pakistan would have anything to gain except looking at a ravaged land devoid of a prosperous future.
A land which would only suit the likes of Al Qaeda and the many bloody terrorists who operate under different names but are united in their objective, the dismemberment of any authority in Afghanistan or Pakistan.
With this offer we should part ways with the Afghan Taliban and let them decide which road they want to take.

4) Normalization of Ties with rest of the world via clear cut policy and transparent action for a militancy free Pakistan
Our ties with USA or any other country should be based on strong principles and in line with our national policy, we have failed to define our policy to date in clear terms and that is causing confusion regarding our intentions.
Our intent needs to be clear, we are not going to allow Pakistan to become a safe haven for militants...period!
We lament Afghan Jihad and truly so ... however why have we not learnt the lesson ourselves?
We blame gun culture, militancy and no hope for a better morrow as the cause of today's mess...however why do we not attempt more emphatically to clean this culture?
Why after so many years we are still confused?
Today some of the militants may not be against Pakistan, but that is also only in terms of not actively attacking Pakistan.
If Pakistan tries to disarm them, be assured that they will attack you.
Not much hope in the long run from such goons and they are mostly guns for hire...
We have seen how easy it is for these militants to openly butcher Pakistanis...all of them can turn on us, even if it suits them not to at this point in time.
Hard cash shall change their minds about killing fellow Muslims and this is evident from the rise of TTP.

However by taking action we shall also ensure that we do not delegate our authority to any other force.
If we take action, there is no way the world can justify foreign intervention, if we want to discourage any foreign adventure...we have one clear cut option.

It is ridiculous that we are thinking about whether WOT is our war or not, the time for that has gone by and still we are thinking.
The militants have no respect for Pakistan and any authority which asks them to lay down arms... it is time we also stop respecting them!

Our policy of buying time and trying to isolate the militants has worked in some cases but overall it has not gained much in way or removing militancy from our country, at best we have influenced 10-20% of the militant factions from attacking us...however this has been at the cost of removing the gray area and also at the cost of how the world views Pakistan (including all our allies and not just one or two countries).
These militants can attack any country in our neighborhood and can ruin our relations with any or all countries in the world.
So why should we tolerate them if they are not yet able to lay down arms?

We should not allow Pakistan to be used as an anvil against the blows of the twisted/anarchist bloody hammer of a failed Salafist/Tafkiri ideology.
An ideology propagated by some Arabs who despised their own governments but instead of changing things via the difficult but peaceful way, have gone about destroying the world.
In Egypt where this ideology was born, we have already seen that people can exert influence without resorting to terrorism.
The Arab spring has already proven that this path chosen by Al Zawahiri and Osama is not necessary and will never ever serve any purpose other than weakening and destroying the countries they are claiming to rescue from the clutches of the great Satan.
It is a failed ideology which is going to set ablaze all Muslim countries instead of making them stronger.
It is a failed ideology which has destroyed peace in our region and sacrificed so many lives and twisted so many minds.
A failed ideology in which the so called great sheikhs and leaders of these so called brave Mujahids are hiding and instead getting innocents killed in the thousands upon thousands, to what purpose?
What do these terrorist and militant groups know about honor?
They have coffers of cash and stashes of heroin and have all the latest weaponry etc...will they ever stop even if USA leaves?
I think we all know the answer to that, after all they have killed many times more local Muslims than the foreign forces they declare as enemies.

We first have to clean house and make it clear to all the world that Pakistan is in no way going to tolerate non state actors who can use its territory to launch attacks within and outside Pakistan.
Once this posture is translated into action, all our dealings will be based on a much stronger position and we shall not be the subject of criticism and isolation, which is hurting us tremendously on all fronts.
We can then rebuke all parties concerned, including USA if we feel someone is double dealing and not contributing to the regional stability.
However our current situation renders such a stance impossible and we need to change our current situation in order to gain strength and leverage, for our sake.

Since we are already advocating talks, it is better that we do not be at complete loggerheads with USA and current Afghan government, but try to influence in a positive manner in the proposed talks between all the groups willing to work for a better Afghanistan...diplomacy may not have been our forte but after the carnage we have been afflicted by...it is best we learn it...fast!

hope we succeed but thats a 'tall order'. by just ridding the taliban militant/terrorist factions wont be enough. the entire political/military/establishment 'mind-set' and 'behaviour' change is needed. is that possible?

will the military take on the LeT, JeM etc right in the heart of Punjab (their recruitment base)? wow! that will be end of the military as we see it !

 

[fatman17]

i voted yes - we shd not be held 'hostage' by a fringe element ~10-20,000 dictating to 180m people! - lets for once do whats good for our country!

 

[President Camacho]

If I were an enemy of Pakistan, I would very much hope this poll is a true representation of the Pakistani population's outlook.

Majority of you want the ties with the US cut off, and at the same time you harbor such sympathy toward the Taliban and its extremism that in itself was the creation of none but the US?

 

[hindukush]

Pakistan should talk with all those Pakistanis who are willing to lay down their arms in an event of severement of tie wth U.S.A and withdrawl from so called war against terror.....there were no bomb attacks in our towns and markets before 9/11 and none of 9/11 suspect was an afghan or Pakistani....they just brought the war to out neighbourhood...isreal is behind it.....israel knows it cant reshape middle-east in the presence of a nuclear of Pakistan......one line for zionists....Ben Gurion started....we will end it

 

[Mo12]

Problem is, maybe the likes of ISI can help them to stay safe, like accusations that rumored to happen about OBL, where he was hiding and for how long too.

 

[Ahmad]

Pakistan should talk with all those Pakistanis who are willing to lay down their arms in an event of severement of tie wth U.S.A and withdrawl from so called war against terror.....there were no bomb attacks in our towns and markets before 9/11 and none of 9/11 suspect was an afghan or Pakistani....they just brought the war to out neighbourhood...isreal is behind it.....israel knows it cant reshape middle-east in the presence of a nuclear of Pakistan......one line for zionists....Ben Gurion started....we will end it

How have Nuclear Pak so far affected the policies(obviouely wrong policies) of Israel in the middle east and how have it prevented Israel from reshaping the middle east??

Buddy, it is not too late yet. Try to save your country otherwise it will become another Afghanistan, it is very painful to be like Afghanistan, you have got no idea how it is.

 

[hindukush]

i voted yes - we shd not be held 'hostage' by a fringe element ~10-20,000 dictating to 180m people! - lets for once do whats good for our country!

these 10-20,000 werent dictating no one before 9/11......dick cheney dictated us to join war against terror on gun-point....that a$$h013 brought war to our towns and villages.....if they agree to give up their arms and surrender before the law in an event of Pakistan withdrawl from american and nato coilation then whats the harm in it....america will leave the region sooner or later and we would be left beind with an enemy

 

[53fd]

I hope non-Pakistanis aren't voting here.