PLAAF J-10B ready to enter service soon.

[UKBengali]

@Martian2 and Speeder:

Thanks for illuminating us on the current limitations of the Rafale in air-to-air. It looks like the J-10A will blow this very expensive fighter(around 3 times as much) out of the sky time after time.

However I think that once it(Rafale) gets the Meteor ramjet missile most of it's limitations will be overcome but the J-10B, with a much more powerful engine now such as the rumored WS-10G which could go up to 155KN, will still be superior if not overwhelmingly so such as the advantage that the J-10A has over the current Rafale.

It must pain India to think that the upcoming J-10B, which will cost half the price of Rafale, will be a better fighter. Worse the J-10B will be a 100% indigenous Chinese fighter.

 

[Speeder 2]

you need some lessons fanboy..

very curious and amused to receive lessons from 82, to be entirely honest.

Ak-47 and M-16 uses different round of bullets..one is 5.56 and another is 7.62..now try to find out differences and uses of them..

still can’t figure it out that I used them as a loose analogy?

slightly more advanced electronics is Spectra suits..which was tested in Libya and Afganistan and hailed one of the best..

I would brand it electra, more bollywood-like character for Indians, .rather than spectra if I led the marketing campaign… nonetheless, “ tested” in Libya and afgan? on what? On those sloppy camel & goat herders?

if used well,growler can hunt down F-22..

Very true though. Why not? Thank you for proving my point!

J-10 is specialised on what???A2A or A2G??most defence experts compare J-10A/B with F-16C/D(30 years old tech)

air superiority.

The design of F-16C/D is gorgeous, 30 years old tech or not. For that matter, Rafale is 30 years old design as well and had it canard tech design drastically inferior to those J-10A, Grippen and EF.

2-seater F-14 is a very old “tech” as well, So what? Upgrade it with the state-of-art elecs and missiles, it still can taken on Rafale-M with ease!

Planes are treasured by their superior designs, far more important than plastic job upgrades. For that matter, J-10A was designed to be a top air superiority fighter in its weight class while Rafale, though overall a good design, was compromised to be all-in-one “omni” fighter that even the US doesn’t excel nor interested. In other words, Rafale is compromised in A2A in order to get A2G capabilities.

both for you and @Martian2..

flying high and kill aircraft below is for old gen aircraft..higher ceilings doesn't mean better performance..and Rafale isn't designed to be a interceptor..

“better performance” for what? For anything that woos a fancy airshow, anything but kill. I say that would be the mother of all fails.

Doesn’t matter what role Rafale has, what it can do when a J-10A is on top of it with much higher speed and longer distance missile? Pray hard?

and FYI,Meteor will enter in production when IN will start Rafale..and MIca's and PL-12s range is almost same..and radar cancellation technique of Rafale can be used against Pl-12 too..so,draw your conclussion..and yes..post rcs of J-10 if you can before making comments on Rafale's rcs..

“radar cancellation technique” you mean the Frenchie squatty style? No “electra”? I wonder what else nerdy names those 100 IQers put into their promotion brochure for you Indians, but rcs is less important here as both J-10A and Rafale are non-stealthy. They weren’t designed so. Period! They can both find each other quite easily. What's important in such a BVR encounter are altitude, speed, missile quality and counter measures on which J-10A has an obvious overall edge when data-linked with AWACS.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Mica and PL-12 is never the same range and far from close. MIca is designed to be a BVR and WVR missile. Therefore it has it limitation when going BVR.. There is reason why Russia, USA and CHina go for a pure BVRAAM.

first..its not confirmed that range of Pl-12 is 100km or not..various sources(even China's own CATIC) claimed that it is only 70 km..even astra has better range than that..

and Rafale can be modified to use every missile Nato countries use in aircraft,even Aim-120 too..so,your logic on missile doesn't have any base..now..don't claim Aim-120D or Meteor(will be introduced in 2015) is not better than Pl-12..

Rafale can carry payloads of more than 9t on 14 hardpoints for the air force version, with 13 for the naval version. The range of weapons includes: Mica, Magic, Sidewinder, ASRAAM and AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; Apache, AS30L, ALARM, HARM, Maverick and PGM100 air-to-ground missiles and Exocet / AM39, Penguin 3 and Harpoon anti-ship missiles.
For a strategic mission the Rafale can deliver the MBDA (formerly Aerospatiale) ASMP stand-off nuclear missile. In December 2004, the MBDA Storm Shadow / Scalp EG stand-off cruise missile was qualified on the Rafale.
In September 2005, the first flight of the MBDA Meteor BVRAAM beyond visual range air-to-air missile was conducted on a Rafale fighter. In December 2005, successful flight trials were carried out from the Charles de Gaulle of the range of Rafale's weapon systems - Exocet, Scalp-EG, Mica, ASMP-A (to replace the ASMP) and Meteor missiles.
In April 2007, the Rafale carried out the first firing of the Sagem AASM precision-guided bomb, which has both GPS / inertial guidance and, optionally, imaging infrared terminal guidance. Rafale have been equipped with the AASM from 2008. Rafale can carry six AASM misssiles, with each aiming to hit the target with 10m accuracy.
The Rafale has a twin gun pod and a Nexter (formerly Giat) 30mm DEFA 791B cannon, which can fire 2,500 rounds a minute. The Rafale is equipped with laser designation pods for laser guidance of air-to-ground missiles.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/


now..don't be a fanboy to claim J-10 is far better than western counterpart..most of the weapons of western counterpart is widely documented,when nobody knows real capability of untested J-10.let your baby mature..then we'll talk..

 

[Speeder 2]

@Martian2 and Speeder:

Thanks for illuminating us on the current limitations of the Rafale in air-to-air. It looks like the J-10A will blow this very expensive fighter(around 3 times as much) out of the sky time after time.

However I think that once it(Rafale) gets the Meteor ramjet missile most of it's limitations will be overcome but the J-10B, with a much more powerful engine now such as the rumored WS-10G which could go up to 155KN, will still be superior if not overwhelmingly so such as the advantage that the J-10A has over the current Rafale.

It must pain India to think that the upcoming J-10B, which will cost half the price of Rafale, will be a better fighter. Worse the J-10B will be a 100% indigenous Chinese fighter.

the only key factors that favour rafale, IMO, are twin-engine power thus some ratios associated with it, along with its better overall avionics, when compared to J-10A. Those alone are far from make-or-break in air battles. Indian fanboys & half bottle Drs, as usual, stop here and begin to brag that Rafale is the best of 4++ or even 5- gen as if it were the best thing happened after fried curry…

Make no mistake about it, both J-10A and B have critical design advantages over Rafale that enable them fly faster and higher. In combination with AWACS as in any modern warfare, J-10A , let alone B, can seriously waste Rafale in BVR with a fraction of its cost. This is even before factoring in other things such as comparative full system advantage, pilot skills & IQ, etc.

 

[Akasa]

The Raphale will circumcise the J-10B. It's not even a competition.

Thanks for the joke. Not when the J-10B has similar upgrades such as AESA, RAM, composites, IRST, MAWS, integrated EW suite, 136 kN engine, etc. The Rafale on the other hand possesses a smaller AESA that isn't even installed yet, much weaker engines, and an unknown amount of composites and RAM. In short, the J-10B possesses all the upgrades seen on the Rafale, and some to a greater extent.

first..its not confirmed that range of Pl-12 is 100km or not..various sources(even China's own CATIC) claimed that it is only 70 km..even astra has better range than that..

and Rafale can be modified to use every missile Nato countries use in aircraft,even Aim-120 too..so,your logic on missile doesn't have any base..now..don't claim Aim-120D or Meteor(will be introduced in 2015) is not better than Pl-12..



Rafale Multirole Combat Fighter - Airforce Technology


now..don't be a fanboy to claim J-10 is far better than western counterpart..most of the weapons of western counterpart is widely documented,when nobody knows real capability of untested J-10.let your baby mature..then we'll talk..

PLA sponsored articles already state the range of the PL-12 is over 100 km. And who says the PL-12 won't match AIM-120D and Meteor; there are two new variants of the PL12: the 5th generation PL-12C and the long range ramjet powered PL-12D, and also a new missile called the PL-21 under testing.

you need some lessons fanboy..

Ak-47 and M-16 uses different round of bullets..one is 5.56 and another is 7.62..now try to find out differences and uses of them..

slightly more advanced electronics is Spectra suits..which was tested in Libya and Afganistan and hailed one of the best..

if used well,growler can hunt down F-22..

J-10 is specialised on what???A2A or A2G??most defence experts compare J-10A/B with F-16C/D(30 years old tech)

both for you and @Martian2..

flying high and kill aircraft below is for old gen aircraft..higher ceilings doesn't mean better performance..and Rafale isn't designed to be a interceptor..

and FYI,Meteor will enter in production when IN will start Rafale..and MIca's and PL-12s range is almost same..and radar cancellation technique of Rafale can be used against Pl-12 too..so,draw your conclussion..and yes..post rcs of J-10 if you can before making comments on Rafale's rcs..

Please tell me which experts compared the J-10A to the F-16 Block 30. The same people who predicted India could swiftly defeat China in 1962? So far the most authoritative source I've read is one by Pakistani engineers who compared the J-10A's avionics to that of the F-16 Block 52. Radar cancellation? We have another word for that: electronic countermeasures. The J-10B has a fully integrated suite of it.

Can anyone tell me what ECM and ECCM suite J 10 uses in comparison to the SPECTRA ECM in Rafale?

Not in detail, but the J-10B uses a next gen integrated EW suite with solid state electronics. The SPECTRA is a EW suite with automation.

 

[Safriz]

china is delaying mass production and induction of J-10B for a reason
Somewhere down the track they saw potential in the plane and decided to make it equivilant to whatever mmrca throws at them.
Export version FC-20 will rival both rafale and eurofighter.
Delays in indian procurement of mmrca is giving china more and more time to improve on the aircraft and that is good.
WS-10 engine has been massively improved and so have the avionics.
Enentually we may see Mmrca in IAF and j-10b in PLAAF and FC-20 in PAF beinb induced at same time...
So the over confidence of india that MMRCA will make IAF top fog im the reagion will evaporate soon.
Keep delaying MMRCA and you may see a J-10b block 2 better than rafale or typhoon.

 

[Zabaniyah]

first..Rafale already got AESA..

Nope. The AESA radar for the Rafale is still in development.

2nd..even Chinese defence forum states PL-12 has range only 70 km..

The AMRAAM has a similar range - the world's best and most proven BVR missile. Your point being?

The PL-12 is powered by a Chinese-designed motor giving a maximum range of 70km and speed of Mach 4. The missile was claimed to be more manoeuvrable than the Russian R-77, and approach the U.S. AIM-120A in general performance.

PiLi-12 Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile - SinoDefence.com

if you have confirm reports that PL-12(not the scramjet version) has range of 100 km..please provide link..

As for PL-12, one can only guess.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Keep the scope of the discussion as per the topic, no need to bring in Rafale, Euro Fighter or anything else.

Just focus on the topic at hand, the near possible induction of J-10B in the CAF.

Anymore off topic discussion will result in infractions.

 

[UKBengali]

Does anyone know how much the Chinese are likely to ask for the J-10B fighter if they decide to export it to anyone apart from Pakistan?


Would love to see Bangaldesh with around 50 of these birds.

 

[Safriz]

Does anyone know how much the Chinese are likely to ask for the J-10B fighter if they decide to export it to anyone apart from Pakistan?


Would love to see Bangaldesh with around 50 of these birds.

about 27 Million Dollars...

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

china is delaying mass production and induction of J-10B for a reason
Somewhere down the track they saw potential in the plane and decided to make it equivilant to whatever mmrca throws at them.
Export version FC-20 will rival both rafale and eurofighter.
Delays in indian procurement of mmrca is giving china more and more time to improve on the aircraft and that is good.
WS-10 engine has been massively improved and so have the avionics.
Enentually we may see Mmrca in IAF and j-10b in PLAAF and FC-20 in PAF beinb induced at same time...
So the over confidence of india that MMRCA will make IAF top fog im the reagion will evaporate soon.
Keep delaying MMRCA and you may see a J-10b block 2 better than rafale or typhoon.

FC-20 will have the WS-10G engine and the advanced AESA radar which is approved by our military insiders, and it should be inducted into the PAF around 2014-2015.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Nobody can answer you that, but it will be comprehensive and a good ECM suite which the J-10 will have, the latest available from the Chinese.

A lot of things available in SPECTRA would be there in the J-10B also, the most expensive and sophisticated ones would not be there or may need an external pod for that, provided Chinese have made such sophisticated tech, especially the active cancellation / jamming tech.

Even though I am a bit skeptical about the active cancellation theory...wouldn't it be nice to have a infra-red missile warning system which will cut down the threat by half just by knowing that the missile is heading to you? that would be a great addition to the J 10Bs avionics suite.

And I still don't understand the concept of Chinese...when they market the product so much and want it to get exported, why don't they show a bit more of their products in the open than keeping it in a veil of secrecy?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Even though I am a bit skeptical about the active cancellation theory...wouldn't it be nice to have a infra-red missile warning system which will cut down the threat by half just by knowing that the missile is heading to you? that would be a great addition to the J 10Bs avionics suite.

And I still don't understand the concept of Chinese...when they market the product so much and want it to get exported, why don't they show a bit more of their products in the open than keeping it in a veil of secrecy?

JF-17 & J-10B and even the latest J-11s all have missile approach warning systems for both infra red missiles & active radar homing missiles, these are the basic things which they need to have and they have them. J-10B has the same MAWS SE-2 in its tail section just like the JF-17, and J-11s have on the small tail in between the engine exhausts. And possible at other locations too.

As for export thingy, i don't believe the J-10B has been offered for export yet, that is the reason for its secrecy. FC-1/JF-17 has been offered for export thus you can see it participating at air shows, but J-10 is not yet for export, may be offered to just a select few.

 

[rcrmj]

about 27 Million Dollars...

much and much more than that``the J-10B will cost around 40million to 50 millions````i guess

 

[帅的一匹]

I thought PLAAF will massively produce J-10b in the end. It will bring down the manufacturing cost for both PLAAF and PAF.