You have a lot of questions, that I could talk about for many paragraphs for each, I will go over some of them briefly, you can pick some out and discuss them with myself and other members.
There was, it happened very differently, before it was localized and not as far reaching or effective. In Israel, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Bosnia. There are examples of elements very similar to the modern Islamic fundamentalist being led there and fighting, albeit the tactics we're much less deplorable, with the exception of hostage sieges and bombings. Only a fringe among those such as Al Qaeda were still active, some in Lebanon, early 80's Hamas. The seeds of this were there since the 80's.... I would advise you to seek out a documentary by Robert Frisk, ME journalist about the conflicts at the time, he gave a very chilling warning to the West back then in the 80's that they must pay attention tow what is happening here, not to fight, but be careful with your interventions, and recognize this reality. Please remember, although less pronounced, officially, the War on Terror started under Reagen, not Bush.
However, the popular factor for these guys was missing, they sold the idea of a clash of civilisations, and this was not a popular message until the US intervened so haphazardly in the Muslim world, Bush himself was foolish enough to use the word 'crusade'.
And I will continue this point in the next comment:
------ well you start your argument with a different pov , Israel is not and never be a victim ... they are occupiers , and they are there by force , any arm struggle against them is undeniably justified , and if Hamas and other fighting forces are terrorist or Islamic Fundamentalist , than you can tomorrow declare Pakistan Army as terrorist Organization along with Kashmir Resistance fighters ..... my question was pretty simple AQ and other jihadi organizations are not fighting a global war , against the entire civilization , no one actually care about AQ , post 9/11 ... despite major warning to US president by many countries for a possible attack on twin tower , not even US govt didnt give any importance .. why ? was that a neglect or they know everything , and they just let it happen ??
well i agree with you that Bush was idiot if he used the word Crusades , but how many we see today blame US or Bush Administration ? why there is no Criminal charges against them ??
the entire group of 9/11 attackers were arabs , none of them are Afghani's but the , Afghans has to pay the price , for some arabs that blew up two building in US .... by any mean this is not fair .. ..!
In Iraq, it was absent, full stop, the more conservative and radical elements of Sunni Iraqis was contained well within the Ba'athist ideology and Saddam's regime. Well contained, and not anything like the Al Qaeda or ISIS that followed.
well , its none of US business dont you think ? so many secular Pakistan today blame Pakistan to interfere in the Cold war to help US and trained Afghans , and so we are paying the price ..... who give US the right to describe anyone Radical elements ??? If US invasion is justified that ISIS invasion of Iraq is also justified ... both kill innocents , both want to implement their agenda and way living , and both bring nothing but destruction .. Period ..
In Afghanistan, 2 decades of non-stop war, a country ravaged by first the Soviets then by Afghan governments, then by war lords, then by 2 civil wars. Afghanistan found itself to be a dysfunctional state with many youth who could not read but could wield arms, could not be conquered in battle but their hearts and minds were soft as clay. That left them wide open to radicalisation, such that began in the 80's, with varying degrees, all parties, Saudis, ISI, and CIA all took part.
Afghan war with soviets has nothing to do with Global war on terror , i am sure you know that ?!
What afghans do with their people has nothing to do with anyone ...
and again ... US is not neighbor to Afghanistan but Pakistan , stable Afghanistan is in favor of Pakistan .... US has personal grudge with Soviets ,
If you have any link that Afghan Taliban openly Declare war on Pakistan Army , and say that they are involved in Attacks in Pakistan .... but please show me the statement of mullah Omar , not some chunu munu leader of Taliban ..
However, even so, the Taliban of then were barbaric but not as barbaric as they seem today. Their bombardment of Kabul is legendary, their killing of civilians in enforcing their laws is legendary. They were politically a lot like a less radical version of ISIS back then, they saw themselves as a state and not an army.
Again Taliban is based on Afghans not some Aliens right ? Afghans want Islamic way of living in their country ... let them live the way they want right ?? who are we to tell them how to live and make their society ? can you ask Americans to drop Democracy and Bring Sharia ?? can you tell KSA to drop Sharia law from mecca madina ??
there will always be conflicts when you try to force your way of living on others ... I am not saying what Taliban done is justified ... but the thing when there is action , there is a equal and opposite reaction ...
The US' foolish intervention, took something like 300 Al Qaeda (fringe, highly radicalised), and tens of thousands of Taliban (less radical), and painted them with the same brush, and Al Qaeda being the way it is, easily mixed itself with the Taliban, ideologies adopted. So in the end, you had tens of thousands of highly radicalised individuals. Suddenly, the message of this 'clash of civilisations' becomes real to them.
well i guess we are on same page here ...
In Iraq, the same story, Al Qaeda was not there until after the US invasion, and even then it was disenfranchised Sunni youth and ex-Ba'athists that took up the black flags.
Now...
If you look at ISIS, you know what is scaring people so much about them? I mean governments. Is it because they are more graphic and bloody? NO!
It is because they are unlike Al Qaeda or other groups, they are a state, their leader speaks openly in a mosque in Mosul, while Mullah Omar is nowhere to be seen, and Bin Laden hidden away for so many years. This scares people. The reason they can so effectively govern a state? .... simple answer.... oil, ex-Ba'athists, and local support.
The Iraqi government marginalised it's Sunni population and oppressed those who spoke against it, peaceful protests in 2013 turned into a bloodbath and from that ISIS rose. With former army men and government from Saddam era (ex-Ba'athists) ISIS is so easily able to govern like a state as opposed to a militia, this is what is frightening about them, this is why they have declared khilafat.
well ISIS is just some bunch of criminal been trained and armed to fight against Assad , and once they are out of control, they were become the bad guys , not to mentioned here that those west openly armed them , but i havent see anyone blaming the entire US and west for that ? Pakistan become forever evil just to look at up his own national interest to Trained the Afghans , but if the world topple the govt , assassinate leaders for their own personal gains , it never come up and nor anyone want to talk about it .. just because they are US and white skin people doesnt make them less radicalized .than ISIS , US and West is using word terrorist for their personal gains. . . . even the good and bad Taliban term is started by US , when they initiate the dialog with Afghan Taliban in Qatar ...
And pakistan was been criticized for supporting Taliban , but TTP is Operating from Afghanistan , sitting under the nose of Entire Allied forces , chilling ?? Pakistan killed and Capture more AQ leaders than NATO , done in this 13 years ....
Wrong people fighting it for the wrong reasons, fighting the wrong way. And each party involved in their own little games and self interests, at the peril of peace and the greater goals.
That and what I've said above.
Wrong people's are also been blamed ....
Tricky subject, first ask yourself where your stance is vis a vis Afghanistan and it's current government.
My opinion doesn't matter here ? but i believe that we should let the people choose for themselves ...
if Majority of Afghans want Taliban govt... than we are no one to oppose this unless that Taliban is openly start threatening the world .. just like if some bunch of TTP thugs want Sharia in Pakistan , we cant give them ... and its very clear that mostly Afghans want Islamic rule in Afghanistan ... and right now they are under occupation .. no country or people will allow it .... If tomorrow India attack Pakistan and take over our country , so if people resist than you will called them terrorist ??? if that is the case , than entire US population is terrorist cause they once take arms against the British empire ...
You mean Haqqanis? Times changed, people change, policies change. There is no conspiracy here, the truth is very simple in fact. This is not often the case in this war.
well not specifically Haqqani's but Taliban leader, US high official come to Pak and give a speech in front of Fighters , and provoked them to fight , and telling them that they are with them .... if national interest is all countries look for than , why its hard to swallow for many secular that its in India's national interest to keep Pakistan busy on western fronts ... TTP is just paid killers , they have no agenda , even if you give them shaira tomorrow they not be satisfied and their blood thirst will only grow ... example , ISIS ...
Because they've realised they can't win, they've realised that the taliban whether they like it or not represent some people, and as long as those people are kept out the system and out of the loop, Afghanistan will remain politically unstable and therein will be further conflict, also they realise possibly that their initial role was not beneficial for any party.
Since Obama, the US has moved away from it's traditional rhetoric about Afghanistan, some basic truths accepted and a far more realistic and considerate approach taken.
well if they lost this war , that doesnt make mortal enemies as friends dont they ?? when US take the U-turn , the world support them , but if Pakistan is seeking its National Interest we were called , Double game player .... :X
TTP started sometime in 2004. Not before. Again complex issue, many militants fled to our vast and open borders, our compliance, with US interests and some demands. Also, the element of increased radicalisation from within their ranks, they began to see Pakistan differently to what they had once did, Pakistan was not completely illegitimate in their eyes before, but after it was an enemy state.
i dont agree with you , because that post 9/11 i haven't see any armed struggle in Pakistan , there was a time when western aka kafir openly roaming on the streets of Pakistan ,and they were never been targeted by any Organization or group ... this Radicalized society was not there in Pakistan in 80's , there might be some Incidents but no one was blowing themselves in random places , i have strong reasons to believe that , that whole drama was played just to start a war, and bring it in Pakistan, and by using the leaders among us , they start this war ....
Americans, CIA, Russians, KGB, India, RAW, Israel, Mossad, Leftist Pakistanis, Bhutto, probability and cursed luck.
Your guess is as good as mine.
well world doesn't care about guess ... they want proves ...
I'll continue the rest tomorrow.
