Peshawar Massacre - TTP kills hundreds of school kids (Avoid graphic pics/vids)

[waz]

Dear brothers and sisters if I can make a humble request. Could we possibly discuss philosophical ideas on another thread and leave this for the tragedy that has occurred?

 

[Dubious]

Good, now we're getting there. So if someone's choice needs respect.. then how do we decide that what Islamic values are the choice they will choose as their values? Hence my objection at the rather open interpretation of Islamic values. What are these? Because if at the end of having Islam as a core subject from primary school till University we still are not on Islamic values.. clearly choices being made are from incorrect information.

OR disobedience!


When you explain it to them they may accept it BUT When you force something on someone they wont love it no matter what

In Pakistan we have 2 systems :
danda language - ask questions = danda, dont understand = danda
or the accusing system - ask questions = acussing for being lazy/ satan minded or whatever, dont understand = acussing for being lazy/ satan minded or whatever

 

[SQ8]

No.

Encouraging people to read Holy Quran with translation and understand its message is important. Simply reading it in its original language is waste of time and effort unless a person understands the original language itself. In addition, knowledge of teachings and character of Holy Prophet (PBUH) is also important. Many in Pakistan don't bother reading Holy Quran with translation and also don't bother reading Islamic history. This is as much fault of the parents as it is of so-called religious instructors who don't bother explain the message of Holy Quran and impart knowledge of way of life and teachings of prophets to students.

Understanding Islam and its tenets is important for Muslims. They cannot be good practitioners otherwise.

Also, what do you mean by "praying like arabs" remark? Do arabs pray in a special way? All Muslims should pray to Allah Almighty, repent for their misdeeds and seek his forgiveness and guidance towards the right path. The code of conduct of prayer is same for all Muslims.

Ok, fair enough.. do people get the choice to study it or it just happens regardless? Because that is what is happening with the Federal and Provincial education boards. They all have their translations and "how to read arabic" areas.. seems to have none of the effect you seem to imply it would.

Its not that I disagree with what you insist on, its the HOW of it I find no roadway to..

As for the Arab praying.. I point to the increase in the number of people who just switched their shalwar qameez for a thawb..and started clasping their hands on their chest instead of their waist.. Sure.. they are doing the whole pray to god routine and so on.. but what changed their minds about a thawb being more effective at it instead of say Levis and a T-Shirt?

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Who is accountable for billions of zakat every month? No accountability in Pakistan... Oh You can't question 8th grade pass Mullah, this is blashphemy. No wonder , how 70 + banned organizations in Pakistan and still active.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Good, now we're getting there. So if someone's choice needs respect.. then how do we decide that what Islamic values are the choice they will choose as their values? Hence my objection at the rather open interpretation of Islamic values. What are these? Because if at the end of having Islam as a core subject from primary school till University we still are not on Islamic values.. clearly choices being made are from incorrect information.

Yet the vast majority of the Pakistani population aren't Takfiri terrorists. You also presume that our current system of education is in anyway adequate or coherant. A large chunk (around 40-50% - depending on what figures you use) of Pakistanis are also completely illiterate. The literacy of those who aren't is of a rather simplistic level without much intellectual development.

 

[Selous]

Prayer leaders? Are you kidding me? Islam must be outlawed in Pakistan!

Get real man and stop talking nonsense.

 

[Dubious]

Ok, fair enough.. do people get the choice to study it or it just happens regardless? Because that is what is happening with the Federal and Provincial education boards. They all have their translations and "how to read arabic" areas.. seems to have none of the effect you seem to imply it would.

Its not that I disagree with what you insist on, its the HOW of it I find no roadway to..

As for the Arab praying.. I point to the increase in the number of people who just switched their shalwar qameez for a thawb..and started clasping their hands on their chest instead of their waist.. Sure.. they are doing the whole pray to god routine and so on.. but what changed their minds about a thawb being more effective at it instead of say Levis and a T-Shirt?

Last bit is lack of knowledge or understanding...

You can have knowledge and not know how to interpret it

Or you can be misinformed....

Or you can just be shitty slave minded!

 

[Bratva]

Afghan Taliban releases statement condemning attack on Pakistani school

By THOMAS JOSCELYN

December 16, 2014

The Afghan Taliban has released a statement, attributed to "Zabihullah Mujahid," the group's official spokesman, condemning the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan's attack on the Army Public School in Peshawar today.

The statement was released on the Afghan Taliban's official Urdu website. The Pakistani Taliban is not named in the short statement, but the Afghan Taliban says it expresses "sorrow over the tragedy and grief for the families of the victims."

"Innocent men, women and children were killed intentionally" and this is against "Islamic principles." The Afghan Taliban claims it has "always condemned the killing of innocent people and children."

Of course, the Afghan Taliban regularly kills innocent people. For example, the United Nations reported in July that there were approximately 4,853 civilian casualties in Afghanistan in the first six months of 2014. The UN attributed 74 percent of these casualties to anti-government elements, including the Taliban, and said that the "onus" was on the Taliban and other anti-government forces to reduce civilian casualties.

Still the Afghan Taliban, led by Mullah Omar, has been attempting to avoid high-profile attacks on civilians. In a message celebrating the end of Ramadan earlier this year, Omar stressed, "Every caution should be taken to protect life and property of the public during [jihadist] operations, so that, God forbid, someone is harmed." Omar said that the Taliban's "Department of Prevention of Civilian Casualties should seriously pay attention to its task to prevent civilian casualties." [See LWJ report, Analysis: Mullah Omar addresses governance of Afghanistan, war against 'invaders' in new message.]

Omar's speech shows that the Afghan Taliban is sensitive to the criticism that its operations cause far more damage to civilians than its opponents do. Like al Qaeda and other jihadist groups, the Afghan Taliban is attempting to win additional hearts and minds for its cause. And the attack on the school in Peshawar, where dozens of children were slaughtered, will likely reduce, not increase, popular support for the jihadists' goals.

The inner workings of the relationship between the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban groups are not clear. The Pakistani Taliban and its leader, Mullah Fazlullah, are openly loyal to Mullah Omar.

In October, for instance, several Pakistani Taliban commanders reportedly swore bayat (oath of allegiance) to the Islamic State's Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, thereby breaking their previous allegiance to Omar. The circumstances surrounding this defection remain murky. [See LWJreport, Discord dissolves Pakistani Taliban coalition.]

However, the Pakistani Taliban released a statement saying that Mullah Fazlullah had previously pledged his organization's loyalty to the "Emir of the Believers Mullah Muhammad Omar." This was a not so subtle indication that that Pakistani Taliban's existing leadership was not going to break ranks with the Afghan Taliban leader in favor of Baghdadi.

It remains to be seen if the Afghan Taliban's condemnation of the school assault has any additional ramifications, or is merely rhetoric.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Ok, fair enough.. do people get the choice to study it or it just happens regardless? Because that is what is happening with the Federal and Provincial education boards. They all have their translations and "how to read arabic" areas.. seems to have none of the effect you seem to imply it would.

Its not that I disagree with what you insist on, its the HOW of it I find no roadway to..

As for the Arab praying.. I point to the increase in the number of people who just switched their shalwar qameez for a thawb..and started clasping their hands on their chest instead of their waist.. Sure.. they are doing the whole pray to god routine and so on.. but what changed their minds about a thawb being more effective at it instead of say Levis and a T-Shirt?

The whole thing about prayer positions and what to wear when praying is a fiqh issue and something even the Mad'habs differ over. It's as Arab as the Hanafi position.

If you want to bring up the existence of Najdism/Wahabism in Pakistan as an "Arab" import, then please do so. Being derogative isn't the way to do so.

 

[Meengla]

Dear brothers and sisters if I can make a humble request. Could we possibly discuss philosophical ideas on another thread and leave this for the tragedy that has occurred?

I would prefer if there are concrete steps recommended based on what happened today. Why a school in Peshawar? Because it was close to FATA.
And why a school? Schools have been 'soft targets' forever but why today? Is that because the terrorists are really that desperate that now they can only strike at schools and only at those schools which are close to FATA?

 

[SQ8]

You still haven't presented a mechanism. Also, Sufism is too diverse to be labelled as an ideology (please don't tell me you deliberately made this mistake, it's rather - like Machaivelli, shoddy). You also don't have to be a Sufi to oppose such barbarism.

Diverse it is, but as a collective approach.. it can be termed as an ideology(even though sufism too has taken on militant forms in chechnya). But is a deliberate reference as an ideology,and the mistake part.. to echo Zardari.."Ye ap ki raye hai". You may consider it as a mistake, I see no reason for it.

Being a sufi has little to do with its usage as a counter ideology, the smaller brush fire to burn out those susceptible to the alternative. Its diversity which you quoted as a disadvantage is the advantage. Its adaptable to the local customs and cultures and will more easily blend into the Madressa in the north as well the Madressa in the south.

 

[Dubious]

Afghan Taliban releases statement condemning attack on Pakistani school

By THOMAS JOSCELYN

December 16, 2014

The Afghan Taliban has released a statement, attributed to "Zabihullah Mujahid," the group's official spokesman, condemning the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan's attack on the Army Public School in Peshawar today.

The statement was released on the Afghan Taliban's official Urdu website. The Pakistani Taliban is not named in the short statement, but the Afghan Taliban says it expresses "sorrow over the tragedy and grief for the families of the victims."

"Innocent men, women and children were killed intentionally" and this is against "Islamic principles." The Afghan Taliban claims it has "always condemned the killing of innocent people and children."

Of course, the Afghan Taliban regularly kills innocent people. For example, the United Nations reported in July that there were approximately 4,853 civilian casualties in Afghanistan in the first six months of 2014. The UN attributed 74 percent of these casualties to anti-government elements, including the Taliban, and said that the "onus" was on the Taliban and other anti-government forces to reduce civilian casualties.

Still the Afghan Taliban, led by Mullah Omar, has been attempting to avoid high-profile attacks on civilians. In a message celebrating the end of Ramadan earlier this year, Omar stressed, "Every caution should be taken to protect life and property of the public during [jihadist] operations, so that, God forbid, someone is harmed." Omar said that the Taliban's "Department of Prevention of Civilian Casualties should seriously pay attention to its task to prevent civilian casualties." [See LWJ report, Analysis: Mullah Omar addresses governance of Afghanistan, war against 'invaders' in new message.]

Omar's speech shows that the Afghan Taliban is sensitive to the criticism that its operations cause far more damage to civilians than its opponents do. Like al Qaeda and other jihadist groups, the Afghan Taliban is attempting to win additional hearts and minds for its cause. And the attack on the school in Peshawar, where dozens of children were slaughtered, will likely reduce, not increase, popular support for the jihadists' goals.

The inner workings of the relationship between the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban groups are not clear. The Pakistani Taliban and its leader, Mullah Fazlullah, are openly loyal to Mullah Omar.

In October, for instance, several Pakistani Taliban commanders reportedly swore bayat (oath of allegiance) to the Islamic State's Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, thereby breaking their previous allegiance to Omar. The circumstances surrounding this defection remain murky. [See LWJreport, Discord dissolves Pakistani Taliban coalition.]

However, the Pakistani Taliban released a statement saying that Mullah Fazlullah had previously pledged his organization's loyalty to the "Emir of the Believers Mullah Muhammad Omar." This was a not so subtle indication that that Pakistani Taliban's existing leadership was not going to break ranks with the Afghan Taliban leader in favor of Baghdadi.

It remains to be seen if the Afghan Taliban's condemnation of the school assault has any additional ramifications, or is merely rhetoric.

Now that is a new twist

@Oscar and others who wanted random bombing....

 

[SQ8]

The whole thing about prayer positions and what to wear when praying is a fiqh issue and something even the Mad'habs differ over. It's as Arab as the Hanafi position.

If you want to bring up the existence of Najdism/Wahabism in Pakistan as an "Arab" import, then please do so. Being derogative isn't the way to do so.

Thank you for the educative post, but tell me something I dont know. If you are offended by my rather blunt talk of the fickle mindnesses of Pakistanis on religion.. then lets not continue this discussion as it will only go south/sour from here.

 

[niaz]

I offer my deepest condolences to the bereaved families of the innocent flowers of Pakistan. I am a father and also a grandfather; I can understand how deep the sorrow on the passing of one’s beloved offspring can be.

I am an old man and normally not given to anger & tantrums. However, this heinous crime has provoked me to anger. Only solution is complete surrender and/or elimination of those who refuse to lay down their arms. Only good Taliban is a ‘Dead’ Taliban.

Additionally I am unable to control my ire against all those who in my opinion carry a soft corner for the terrorists.

Shame on you Munawwar Hasan who called TTP leader Shaheed, I hope you go straight to hell.

Shame on you Ch. Nisar whose speech in parliament after Baitulah Mahsood’s death in drone attack made out as if the butcher Mahsood was an angel of mercy.

Shame on you Imran Khan who made PTI workers block ISAF supplies because US drones were killing these scums of the earth.

Shame on you Hamid Mir who supported Lal Masjid thugs, supported anti Pakistan Akbar Bugti and gave free time to theseparatist Brahamdag Bugti.

Shame on you Ifitkhar Chaudhry who freed all the jailed Lal Masjid terrorists so that they can go out kill more Pak army Jawans.

IMO all of the above carry the blame for the continued support of terrorism in Pakistan.

Situation in Pakistan cannot change unless & until there is “ZERO” tolerance policy. No matter what the circumstances or provocation or the crime (e.g. blasphemy) no one has a right to take the law in his / her hands and start killing or burning houses.

Every one regardless of the religion, ethnicity or economic factors, who picks up a gun, is no longer a civilian but a criminal and an enemy of the state & must be dealt with the strongest possible means.

Finally, I hope this is a wake up call for the nation and a unanimous resolution to carry on operation Zarbe Azb until all terrorists; whether religious, ethnic or sectarian are eliminated is passed at the APC. Because should our school children continue to be slaughtered & female teachers burnt alive, Pakistan will surly perish.

However, since TTP loving Jamaat Islami will also be there, it is doubtful any thing constructive beyond verbal outrage will come out of the APC tomorrow.

 

[shanipisces2002]

well this is indeed one of the most barbaric tragedy ever happened in Pakistan, though in order to solve this problem I say take all the terrorist who are in Jails and Burn them alive in Public or torture them that much that they beg for death still no death or pour boiling hot water drop by drop in their ear and have them suffer such barbaric bastards