Persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan contradicts the teachings of Islam

[SQ8]

No you haven't. The brief encounters I have had with you have displayed your ignorance, lack of respect, and down right stupidity. Just because you hide under a sheat of manners does not mean I can't see your true intentions or feelings.

Please report the slightest of needless parroting, we dont like keeping such members onboard as this is usually their 15th ID which they spend precious moments of their pithiful lives creating.

 

[Hamza913]

Please report the slightest of needless parroting, we dont like keeping such members onboard as this is usually their 15th ID which they spend precious moments of their pithiful lives creating.

I have always reported those who break the rules, dont worry.

 

[Zibago]

No we won't. We need a proper Islamic government. That doesn't mean executions left right and centre, that means obeying proper Islamic laws and enforcing them.

Please explain what sort of govt you want?

 

[SQ8]

1. There is a fund for hajj because Islam is the state religion, we don't have to nor should we fund the pilgrimages of other religions.

2. Having a pure Islamic state would be good for Pakistan. Look at other countries where they have one (or at least attempt to have one) such as Saudi Arabia or Qatar. They are doing very well for themselves, it wouldn't hurt for us to become more Islamic.

3. Calling Ahmedis Kuffar is not abuse, it's a fact.

4. I agree, our Mullahs can be a bit crazy, but ultimately many of them do strive to spread a good message.

1. Agree

2. Disagree, there is no such thing as a pure Islamic state. It is all fictional utopia created by the politio-Mullah class for their own benefit. The Islamic state that existed at the time of the prophet had political controversies arise right at the time of his passing; to the extent that Caliphs Hazrat Umar, Uthman and Ali (RAs)were all assasinated. That automatically ends any concept of perfection or even a semblance of Islamic state.
The implementation of Islamic law as available for Muslims to apply in their own lives is not an indicator of an Islamic state.

3. Something that Qadiyanis have to settle, Please do not use Ahmedi .. Ahmed was the name of our Prophet and hence in a way we all are Ahmedi.

4. Disagree, our Mullah's are generally crazy and many do not have anything beyond self service or daily bread and butter in mind.

 

[Jugger]

Bhai mera aik sawal hai aap logo se.

Jab hum sunte or dekhte hain kisi news main ya video main ke koi angrez(kafir) musalmano waale kaam karne ki koshish kar raha hai matlab ke, wazu kar raha hai, namaaz parhne ki koshish kar raha hai to hum sub kehte hain "MASHALLAH SUBHANALLAH" But when some other sectarian of Muslims preach the way they should be, then we label them "KAFIR or AHMADI" & what not. Aren't we hypocrites? If Ahmadis are committing some kind of sin by preaching a fake prophet then they will burn in hell according to Islam. But who are we to judge & punish them? For God sake please Mazhab se pehle doosro ko Insaan samajhna seekho to Pakistan ko kisi revolution ki zaroorat nahiin paregi.

Peace.

A very thought provoking post.

This hypocracy... Its all over my beloved country. The very idea that there is a fund for hajj but no fund for yatra of Hindus or other religious groups to visit their places of worship is in itself wrong. There is more than enough shoving religion into the mouth of the people in Pakistan but I don't know where these mullahs want to take Pakistan since despite oppressing Ahmedis for decades they are still not content with the situation. They want to impose even more religion, and that also their narrow minded version rather than seeking equality among all Pakistanis regardless of religion/sect/ethnicity.

They abandon no opportunity to advocate for a pure Islamic state when they themselves don't know what that means. They demonize the secular system and spend every strand of strength working for an narrow minded, and according to their own close minded interpretations, "Islamic Pakistan." Secularists are demonized though they can never answer the question when they will be satisfied if they are not satisfied with the current setup. There is no satisfying the mullah. He will never be content. If they say we couldn't impose Islam after 60 years with these kinds of rules they will never succeed in a thousand years and will keep blaming us secularists for their own faults.

Other than this a person has to testify that he is not an Ahmedi when applying to renew the passport. He has to abuse Ahmedis to get a passport. Narrow minded mullahs have full control of the nation but they won't be satisfied unless there is even worse, daily riots, terrorism and murder in the streets of Pakistan. Still they will say they need pure version of Islam in Pakistan.

This is a disease and it has taken hold in Pakistan.

A powerful post and an open mind.
Sir, do you think the majority of Pakistanis think like you or like some anti Qadiyani posters here?

 

[Hamza913]

1. Agree

2. Disagree, there is no such thing as a pure Islamic state. It is all fictional utopia created by the politio-Mullah class for their own benefit. The Islamic state that existed at the time of the prophet had political controversies arise right at the time of his passing; to the extent that Caliphs Hazrat Umar, Uthman and Ali (RAs)were all assasinated. That automatically ends any concept of perfection or even a semblance of Islamic state.
The implementation of Islamic law as available for Muslims to apply in their own lives is not an indicator of an Islamic state.

3. Something that Qadiyanis have to settle, Please do not use Ahmedi .. Ahmed was the name of our Prophet and hence in a way we all are Ahmedi.

4. Disagree, our Mullah's are generally crazy and many do not have anything beyond self service or daily bread and butter in mind.

Any controversies that existed were the fault of the people at the time, not the system itself. I know it's tough to implement a whole new system, but we have to try and try peacefully and follow the prophets example to the letter.

I know quite a few of our Mullahs are insane, but many strive to spread a good message but don't do it right. They use violence, which should not be a first option.

A powerful post and an open mind.
Sir, do you think the majority of Pakistanis think like you or like some anti Ahmadi posters here?

As @Oscar said earlier, please use the term Qadiyani to describe them.

Secondly, majority of Pakistanis don't think like @haviZsultan . Take that as you wish.

 

[YeBeWarned]

2. Disagree, there is no such thing as a pure Islamic state. It is all fictional utopia created by the politio-Mullah class for their own benefit. The Islamic state that existed at the time of the prophet had political controversies arise right at the time of his passing; to the extent that Caliphs Hazrat Umar, Uthman and Ali (RAs)were all assasinated. That automatically ends any concept of perfection or even a semblance of Islamic state.
The implementation of Islamic law as available for Muslims to apply in their own lives is not an indicator of an Islamic state.

I think the problem is not within the System but people itself , I am not going to say Sharia will do best in Pakistan but i will not give this system into a homicidal Mullah who's only hobby is to declare other Non Muslims and Wajab-ul-Qatal .
as for Umar ibn Khattab his assassination was the result of Muslims Invasion of Persian land ( an Act of Revenge no where even close to blame System )
for Uthman R.A what i learn about him , he was there from the very beginning of the Islam, so no one can doubt his knowledge of Islam and how the state runs under the first Two Caliphs as he was active member of Shura .. the people who rebel against him can be at fault, the issue can be resolved but again it was people who make vile Actions to Destabilize a system which was working pretty good.
and Finally for Ali RA , he was murdered in cold blood but his death clearly shows the Division among the Muslim community as he was lucky to get Shahadat and Mawavia escape death that day , if he was assassinated on that day as well, there would be a much bigger problem in Hands of the Muslims .

3. Something that Qadiyanis have to settle, Please do not use Ahmedi .. Ahmed was the name of our Prophet and hence in a way we all are Ahmedi.

I hardly realize that , but thanks for reminding us ..

 

[haviZsultan]

A very thought provoking post.

A powerful post and an open mind.
Sir, do you think the majority of Pakistanis think like you or like some anti Ahmadi posters here?

The current stand of "ghairatmand Pakistani mullah brigade" is a direct result of flawed and non objective Pakistan studies curriculum and shoving of religion down our throats. It happens in Lucknow too against muslimsas my cousins point out but there is a larger muslim community there to oppose it and at least they have a small tiny inci vinci voice. Here we have less than 4% minorities and the muslim elite (mullahs) have never let them advance.

Sometimes I think Pakistan might be different if we had a solid sizable community of non muslims. The relations where there are multiple religious groups have a greater sense of unity. If the sikhs had accepted Jinnah's appeal and things had gone smoothely there would be around 30% sikhs in Pakistan, a possible counter to the rabid mullahs that roam Pakistan like rabid wolves. The sikhs would also benefit because they are less than 2% of the total Indian population. They would have more say. Right now their vote in India, because of their negligible population compared to Hindus and even muslims makes their vote useless. Perhaps that was one reason for the 84 problems and Bhinranwale's insurgency.

We shouldn't have lost our minorities. Still we have a brilliant opportunity to learn from our minority citizens like Sikhs Hindus, Christians and Ahmedis. Whether Pakistanis are willing to see this religious diversity as an advantage we have yet to see.

 

[Hamza913]

Please explain what sort of govt you want?

An Islamic government. Here are some of the rules just to be specific (I have chosen the ones that will be the most game changing ones in Pakistan if properly implemented):

1. No punishment for blasphemy, that's haram and against the Quran (in fact the Quran specifically says to turn the other cheek), unless a Muslim does it as that is apostasy (in that case they must repent and apologise otherwise that makes them proud apostates which carries a harsh punishment). Keep in mind in order for the Muslim to actually be charged for blasphemy, there must be several witnesses (without said witnesses they cannot be charged, meaning that if you do it in private you cannot and will not be punished in this life).

2. Punishments on individuals is carried out only by the state, not individuals (avoids the whole issue we currently have of innocents being hurt).

3. Impose Jizya tax on the Kuffar (Jizya is a tax imposed only on Kuffar that are financially stable, male, can afford it, are not religious figures, are not soldiers, and have made no major contribution to the country).

4. Impose Zakat tax on Muslims (it's a basic pillar of Islam, and needs to be enforced, only the poor are exempt as with Jizya).

5. Kuffar cannot have any major religious symbols on display (this means that things such as that giant cross have to be taken down, but things like that bus with Santa on it can stay).

6. Criminals with death sentences are executed publicly in the way it is Islamically decreed (it shall deter others from committing the crime, if there is no Islamically prescribed way to execute an individual who committed a specific crime, then the state may chose how it goes forward with the execution).

7. Punishment for those who falsely accuse others of great crimes (stops people from pointing fingers, this is a huge problem Pakistan has) or punish criminals themselves.

 

[Zibago]

An Islamic government. Here are some of the rules just to be specific (I have chosen the ones that will be the most game changing ones in Pakistan if properly implemented):

1. No punishment for blasphemy, that's haram and against the Quran (in fact the Quran specifically says to turn the other cheek), unless a Muslim does it as that is apostasy (in that case they must repent and apologise otherwise that makes them proud apostates which carries a harsh punishment). Keep in mind in order for the Muslim to actually be charged for blasphemy, there must be several witnesses (without said witnesses they cannot be charged, meaning that if you do it in private you cannot and will not be punished in this life).

2. Punishments on individuals is carried out only by the state, not individuals (avoids the whole issue we currently have of innocents being hurt).

3. Impose Jizya tax on the Kuffar (only on Kuffar that are financially stable and can afford it, this will give the state an extra source of finance).

4. Kuffar cannot have any major religious symbols on display (this means that things such as that giant cross have to be taken down, but things like that bus with Santa on it can stay).

5. Criminals with death sentences are executed by public beheading (beheading is quick and if it's public it shall deter others from committing the crime).

6. Punishment for those who falsely accuse others of great crimes (stops people from pointing fingers, this is a huge problem Pakistan has) or punish criminals themselves.

An Islamic government. Here are some of the rules just to be specific (I have chosen the ones that will be the most game changing ones in Pakistan if properly implemented):

1. No punishment for blasphemy, that's haram and against the Quran (in fact the Quran specifically says to turn the other cheek), unless a Muslim does it as that is apostasy (in that case they must repent and apologise otherwise that makes them proud apostates which carries a harsh punishment). Keep in mind in order for the Muslim to actually be charged for blasphemy, there must be several witnesses (without said witnesses they cannot be charged, meaning that if you do it in private you cannot and will not be punished in this life).

2. Punishments on individuals is carried out only by the state, not individuals (avoids the whole issue we currently have of innocents being hurt).

3. Impose Jizya tax on the Kuffar (only on Kuffar that are financially stable and can afford it, this will give the state an extra source of finance).

4. Kuffar cannot have any major religious symbols on display (this means that things such as that giant cross have to be taken down, but things like that bus with Santa on it can stay).

5. Criminals with death sentences are executed by public beheading (beheading is quick and if it's public it shall deter others from committing the crime).

6. Punishment for those who falsely accuse others of great crimes (stops people from pointing fingers, this is a huge problem Pakistan has) or punish criminals themselves.

1 and 2 will get you a readymade Qadri
Why should Non Muslims pay double Tax?

On 4 why is their right less than yours?

5 why public beheadings why not hanging in private?

6 is already in Pakistan but its not correctly implemented

 

[PakSword]

Please do not use Ahmedi .. Ahmed was the name of our Prophet and hence in a way we all are Ahmedi.

Please change the title of this thread..

 

[haviZsultan]

1. Agree

2. Disagree, there is no such thing as a pure Islamic state. It is all fictional utopia created by the politio-Mullah class for their own benefit. The Islamic state that existed at the time of the prophet had political controversies arise right at the time of his passing; to the extent that Caliphs Hazrat Umar, Uthman and Ali (RAs)were all assasinated. That automatically ends any concept of perfection or even a semblance of Islamic state.
The implementation of Islamic law as available for Muslims to apply in their own lives is not an indicator of an Islamic state.

3. Something that Qadiyanis have to settle, Please do not use Ahmedi .. Ahmed was the name of our Prophet and hence in a way we all are Ahmedi.

4. Disagree, our Mullah's are generally crazy and many do not have anything beyond self service or daily bread and butter in mind.

I disagree with 3 but rest is mostly good other than 2 a) Ahmedis want themselves to be called Ahmedis and any community should be called what it wants itself to be called.
b) Qadiani is an insult to the leader of the Ahmedis as well as a location from where Ahmedi's emerged. It is not a proper name. Calling anyone anything insulting to them is wrong. Like Indians calling us Porki's and Muslims Mian and Bhaya. Also note that we urdu speakers have still not come to term with calling ourselves from the place we are originally from like I call myself Lucknowi. People assume I am not a Pakistani when I say this sometimes. Some mak fun of me including people on this site. Then a lot of Muslims were born in Saudi (Najd or Hejaz at that time) and their next generations came to Pakistan. Yet they don't call ourselves Najdi or Hejazi.

If we can't come to terms in both the ethnic or religious sense (despite some of us trying) to call ourselves to be from a place we have some old familial/religious links how do we expect the same from Ahmedis?

Rest I agree with in some manner but let me get back to 2. I would like to note @Kaptaan has put forward similar views in point 2. But I do not acknowledge that there is no Islamic system at all because Umar and Abu Bakr both had a system for governing large non muslim populations through secularism.

What we and the current mullahs see is the tip of the ice burg. The violence, the killing of 3 of 4 righteous caliphs, the brutality of Hajjaj Bin Yousuf, the Persian genocide by Ibn Muslim and the crushing cruelty against the ummayads and dissenters by As Saffaq, the brutality of Selim I of the Ottomans. And of course the crushing of dissent, liberalism and independence through violence. This is the truth. But there has always been something I would call Islamic secularism beneath

I haven't had enough time to properly define Islamic secularism which I believe in but it definitely includes movements like the Akbar's Din E Ilahi, Iqbal's Ijtehad, Pir Roshan's Roshaniya, Mutazilite movement and Ibn Rushd's secularism . I will not elaborate on these movements as that will take up much space but a little research (google) will reveal they were secular movements that constantly rose and were crushed. To note Iqbal was insulted for defending Turkey's reforms. Pir Roshan was abused by the mainstream including Khushal Khan Khattak for promoting girls education, something unknown in Pashtun and Islamic world at that time. (This was hypocracy in the part of Khattak because some poetry he wrote was detailed in sexual themes.

Anyway it proves that some have resisted the tide of conservatism that has strangled us like a snake. It also proves that there has always been an undercurrent of liberalism in Muslim society. Hating Islam completely and advocating this superficial, conservative image of Islam is also wrong as conservatism, hating on minorities and taking their rights.

I wish you the best Oscar. This has been a very interesting debate and you have put forward good points. @Zibago, keep fighting the good fight. Most people I have met staying in Pakistan follow the same narrow mindedness as mullahs. No offense meant. Its easy to be a victim of the distorted history. Good to see you arguing for the better system and equality.

 

[Hamza913]

1 and 2 will get you a readymade Qadri
Why should Non Muslims pay double Tax?

On 4 why is their right less than yours?

5 why public beheadings why not hanging in private?

6 is already in Pakistan but its not correctly implemented

I did not say the tax has to be double, the rate can be decided by the state as to what's apporpriate. They should pay it as they are living in an Islamic land and being protected by Muslims. There is nothing wrong with them having to pay the state in return for offering them services. It will be beneficial to the state too as they have another source of finance.

As for number 4, they can't have major religious symbols in an Islamic land as that would no longer make it Islamic. They cannot hold any religious influence as that would persuade some of our brothers and sisters to leave Islam, either directly or indirectly.

When it comes to number 5, as I said earlier, making it public will deter people from committing the act. I guess if you want to publicly hang them you can, but if you make it an actual beheading the event looks worse offering more of a deterrent.

I disagree with 3 but rest is mostly good other than 2 a) Ahmedis want themselves to be called Ahmedis and any community should be called what it wants itself to be called.
b) Qadiani is an insult to the leader of the Ahmedis as well as a location from where Ahmedi's emerged. It is not a proper name. Calling anyone anything insulting to them is wrong. Like Indians calling us Porki's and Muslims Mian and Bhaya. Also note that we urdu speakers have still not come to term with calling ourselves from the place we are originally from like I call myself Lucknowi. People assume I am not a Pakistani when I say this sometimes. Some mak fun of me including people on this site. Then a lot of Muslims were born in Saudi (Najd or Hejaz at that time) and their next generations came to Pakistan. Yet they don't call ourselves Najdi or Hejazi.

If we can't come to terms in both the ethnic or religious sense (despite some of us trying) to call ourselves to be from a place we have some old familial/religious links how do we expect the same from Ahmedis?

Rest I agree with in some manner but let me get back to 2. I would like to note @Kaptaan has put forward similar views in point 2. But I do not acknowledge that there is no Islamic system at all because Umar and Abu Bakr both had a system for governing large non muslim populations through secularism.

Calling Qadiyanis that other name is a disgrace to our beloved prophet. If they want to call themselves that fine, but I won't nor do I have to.

I understand why you might disagree with number 3, but please read my response to @Zibago to understand why it's a good idea. You can also do further research yourself to understand why.

I am glad you agree with my thoughts in some manner, and that other members do the same. I will agree that Pakistan has some sort of an Islamic system, but sort of isn't good enough.

 

[Zibago]

I did not say the tax has to be double, the rate can be decided by the state as to what's apporpriate. They should pay it as they are living in an Islamic land and being protected by Muslims. There is nothing wrong with them having to pay the state in return for offering them services. It will be beneficial to the state too as they have another source of finance.

As for number 4, they can't have major religious symbols in an Islamic land as that would no longer make it Islamic. They cannot hold any religious influence as that would persuade some of our brothers and sisters to leave Islam, either directly or indirectly.

When it comes to number 5, as I said earlier, making it public will deter people from committing the act. I guess if you want to publicly hang them you can, but if you make it an actual beheading the event looks worse offering more of a deterrent.



Calling Qadiyanis that other name is a disgrace to our beloved prophet. If they want to call themselves that fine, but I won't nor do I have to.

I understand why you might disagree with number 3, but please read my response to @Zibago to understand why it's a good idea. You can also do further research yourself to understand why.

I am glad you agree with my thoughts in some manner, and that other members do the same. I will agree that Pakistan has some sort of an Islamic system, but sort of isn't good enough.

They will be paying regular taxes and then ontop of that they will pay Jizya thats unfair

They can be protected without the jizya like in other normal states

So the state should start bhatta vasoli hmm :-//

So on 4 you are saying your right to practice your religion is greater than theirs?

Nope certain things shouldnot be public

 

[Hamza913]

They will be paying regular taxes and then ontop of that they will pay Jizya thats unfair

They can be protected without the jizya like in other normal states

So the state should start bhatta vasoli hmm :-//

So on 4 you are saying your right to practice your religion is greater than theirs?

Nope certain things shouldnot be public

Then remove regular taxes and make the only tax Jizya, it's not like most of Pakistan pays its regular taxes anyway.

They should be thanking the state for its services and allowing them to reside in Muslim land whilst practising their respective religion. Other Muslims must pay Zakah, it's one of our pillars, but the Kuffar can get away with never being charitable in their life. That's hardly respectable, Jizya is ensuring they are also charitable.

My right to practice my religion is greater than theirs if I'm in a Muslim country. In a Kaffir country their right to practice their religion is greater than mine. That's how it works.

Well I'm sorry if you disagree with public executions, but that's the way it has to go Islamically.