Partition was a mistake

[kidwaibhai]

now i am giving my personal view here but when my indian friends start saying that partition is a mistake i say that u have your beliefs i have mine i think partition was a good thing if you dont that is sad but i dont care

 

[Logic note]

As per other Point of view of Indians .. Partition was a long term blessing in disguise of momentary pain of India .
the clash between Islam and Indian point of view ,which would have taken a huge toll on the long term growth and development of Indian civilisation is manageable .

 

[opinion786]

Partition was the best thing that happened for Pakistan! And, maybe for India too.

Now we must concentrate on our economic well-being and providing the best of facilities to our public and groom our country. Pakistan is a country blessed with wonderful natural resources and intelligent public. But we lack sincere & honest leaders. The only leader I feel has really developed Pakistan, is President Musharaf.

All, world-wide banks, IMF, World bank, Finance instituions, J.P.Morgan and Poor & Moody's praise Pakistan's economic success. The world is interested in investing in Pakistan, when ealier they only knew India. No one knew Pakistan practically in the world earlier. Now Pakistan is being recognised and sought after for investment.

I remeber, the Kuwaiti Emir visiting India to invest in the Oil refinery. All Indian channels were excited on mentioning that foreign investment. But, the Emir opted to invest in Pakistan and now that refinery is in under-construction near Karachi.

 

[roadrunner]

As per other Point of view of Indians .. Partition was a long term blessing in disguise of momentary pain of India .
the clash between Islam and Indian point of view ,which would have taken a huge toll on the long term growth and development of Indian civilisation is manageable .

I see!! So the Islamic point of view of Indian Muslims is not Indian now, is it? No wonder Indian Muslims find it difficult to live in India. No wonder Pakistan wanted to separate!!

 

[mujahideen]

See whether Indians are non-racist/discriminatory or not is not the point..
The point is that there are equal rights for all, there are courts to uphold these rights..
Indian constitution, courts do not discriminate which is the ultimate requirement.. Pakistani constitution does discriminate from what I understand...
If Pakistanis do not discriminate well done.. but the courts and constitution do...
If Indians discriminate then (ideally) they are punished...

This is all just written on a piece of paper. Their are many things written on paper but they aren't reality.

 

[Logic note]

I see!! So the Islamic point of view of Indian Muslims is not Indian now, is it? No wonder Indian Muslims find it difficult to live in India. No wonder Pakistan wanted to separate!!

Yes there is a big difference between these point of views .
thats is why India is Secular democracy ( you may question it Based on your percpetion) where faith is personal .

As per your comment on Indian Muslims .. why dont you visit and interact with them and surprisingly a wast majority will tell you that they are glad they are in India .

yes there has been riots and old issues of reclaiming old demolished temples . but then problem are every where .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If the members may allow me to redirect:

Regardless of whether "historically" you agree or disagree with the creation of India and Pakistan, my question is whether Indians (you meet at work, school, passing acquaintance etc.) saying that partition was a mistake and Jinnah was wrong is insulting and rude.

Its a different issue, discussing the pros and cons and history on a discussion forum, than having someone say it in a "social setting". Is it appropriate, and does it not suggest that the Indian saying it does not accept your nation and identity?

I don't think one can argue that, India is much better off without Pakistan (its secular, smaller Muslim minority etc.) and then also say that Pakistan's independence was a mistake.

That seems a contradiction.

 

[Malang]

Your understanding is incorrect. Indian courts DO discriminate according to religion. Example, a man may divorce his wife with 3 words in India if he is Muslim, but not if he is Hindu, a man hogs all the property money if he is Hindu, but not if he is Muslim. It's exceptionally discriminatory.

The Muslims have their Personal Law boards.. and if a Muslim wants to have 4 wives in India he can... this is an extension of freedom to follow one's religion and its tenets..
All India Muslim Personal Law Board

"In what may come as a big relief to the Muslim women, their husbands would not be able to get rid of their wives in future by simply reciting talaaq, talaaq, talaaq. The All-India Muslim Personal Law Board is set to ban this practice from next month and ratify the new model talaqnama."
Muslim board to divorce 'triple talaq'-India-The Times of India

As for Property it is dependent on the will of the deceased and if there is no will then the laws of HUF or AIMPLB take place.. (I am not a lawyer so I wouldn't know exactly)

From Pakistan's constitution, all citizens of Pakistan have the same rights, one law, one constitution.

I haven't heard of a non muslim man marrying a muslim woman...
And what about the Blasphemy laws???

Protection of minorities.
The State shall safeguard the legitimate rights and interests of minorities, including their due representation in the Federal and Provincial services.
[Chapter 2: Principles of Policy] of [Part II: Fundamental Rights and Principles of Policy]

It also makes it illegal in Pakistani constitution for dictators to come and usurp power.. Pakistani constitution has been fundamentally changed many times though.. judges are fired and appointed at will... GoP at the moment is in a state of flux...

There's also no such thing as Partition, since the Indus Valley was never part of India to with the exception of the last couple of centuries.

if I believe cognate civilizations of Indus valley were found all over Northern India.. with the best preserved examples being in Pakistan...
as for Indus valley never being part of India, Indus was the river which was used to name India..

I have seen a few articles on Indus Valley, Mehrgarh historians point them out as Indo/Indian civilizations... Zionist propaganda perhaps??

Independence perhaps. But Independence was a good thing for Pakistanis.

subjective!!!

 

[Malang]

I will not comment on your discussion with other members in this thread, but your democratic India would never tolerate someone posting "Pakistan Zindabad" on any Indian defence forum.

If those forums are being run by GoI then saying Pakistan Zindabad is tolerable IMO. else personal biases rule the roost...

ICL players, cricket spectators, Pak singers at reality contests and their fans fly the Pakistani flag all within the borders of India..

PS: Liked the advert. of Jal the band frontman, a Pakistani, endorsing an Indian make Ice Cream.

Just thought I'd remind you of the fair mindedness of the staff of this website

Yes this is reflective of the mods and not Pakistan or Pakistanis..
If I am correct it is possible Jinnah etc. might have said Jai Hind???

I am not offended!
I expect such words from Indians......... and thats the reason we have Pakistan! ....

such words have a sense of fraternity, unity and brotherhood too...
the worrying trend IMO is many Indians now supporting partition, which to my mind is discriminatory towards Muslims...

 

[Malang]

now i am giving my personal view here but when my indian friends start saying that partition is a mistake i say that u have your beliefs i have mine i think partition was a good thing if you dont that is sad but i dont care

If you don't respect my views why would I yours?
It is not a question of whether I agree or not it is a question of respect and your right to believe in what you believe..
Voltaire's quote would be too dramatic in this case...

Partition was the best thing that happened for Pakistan! And, maybe for India too.

Partition was the thing that led to Pakistan so whether it was best or worst is not the point...
Creation of Pakistan was the best thing that happened to Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Parsis, Jews, Bahais, Ahmadis, Jains??
this is subjective..

PS:you speak for all the Muslims of present day Pakistan.. I can also argue that if Bangladesh, Pakistan would've been with India, Muslims would have numbered around 500million and Hindus around 800million.. so Muslims could actually have a lot of clout in South Asia.. so it diluted the power of Muslims in South Asia....

This is all just written on a piece of paper. Their are many things written on paper but they aren't reality.

Constitution is not many things!!! it is the foundation of India...

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

partition was the best solution at the time and is still is right now. as soon as the countries got independence, they went to war. besides, i don't think we can call it "partition". it's more like pakistan and india, both, gaining independence from the british empire. I wouldn't say british india because that would also include Burma and Iraq.

Sometimes i wonder why indians only think of pakistan, when they think about their land being split in half. why don't they go discuss this with nepalis, burmese, bangladeshis, and sri lankans. akhand bharatis can expect to find nukes pointed at their necks for trying anything stupid.

Malang:
we don't belong to you nor are we your slaves, so stop barking about your land being split in half, you akhand bharat fanatic and go take a hike.

 

[Malang]

partition was the best solution at the time and is still is right now. as soon as the countries got independence, they went to war.

and who sent their mighty forces???

besides, i don't think we can call it "partition". it's more like pakistan and india, both, gaining independence from the british empire. I wouldn't say british india because that would also include Burma and Iraq.

Iraq?? Pakistan as a land/country never existed before 1947's .. a better debater in this case would be Roadrunner...

if Pakistanis were not majority Muslims I have no doubt in mind that Pakistan wouldn't have been even thought of...

Sometimes i wonder why indians only think of pakistan, when they think about their land being split in half. why don't they go discuss this with nepalis, burmese, bangladeshis, and sri lankans. akhand bharatis can expect to find nukes pointed at their necks for trying anything stupid.

Indians do not think of conquering Pakistan.. it was the wish of the Muslims/Majority to form a seperate country for whatever reason... and this wish has been respected... why else do you think India never shut off the Indus water supplies? or not attack it first ever?? or why do Indians welcome Pakistanis?

Malang:
we don't belong to you nor are we your slaves, so stop barking about your land being split in half, you akhand bharat fanatic and go take a hike.

Neither are you my slave nor I yours..
The word partition implies the land was split..
watch your language..

 

[Logic note]

If the members may allow me to redirect:

Regardless of whether "historically" you agree or disagree with the creation of India and Pakistan, my question is whether Indians (you meet at work, school, passing acquaintance etc.) saying that partition was a mistake and Jinnah was wrong is insulting and rude.

Its a different issue, discussing the pros and cons and history on a discussion forum, than having someone say it in a "social setting". Is it appropriate, and does it not suggest that the Indian saying it does not accept your nation and identity?

I don't think one can argue that, India is much better off without Pakistan (its secular, smaller Muslim minority etc.) and then also say that Pakistan's independence was a mistake.

That seems a contradiction.

Dear AM
Fortunatly or unfortunately diff ppl have diff opinions and diff perception .. so this logic of seeing "indians" as one group of ppl with one opinion is kiddish .
and specially Indians .. they believe in one truth but they accept the difference in perception . this is part of our culture and thats why you see so much diversity in India. (unlike Pakistan)

 

[z9-ec]

Dear AM
Fortunatly or unfortunately diff ppl have diff opinions and diff perception .. so this logic of seeing "indians" as one group of ppl with one opinion is kiddish .
and specially Indians .. they believe in one truth but they accept the difference in perception . this is part of our culture and thats why you see so much diversity in India. (unlike Pakistan)

Refer back to my previous posts and you would find how diverse and secular Indian society is.

Perhaps a glimpse of the Babri incident, Gujrat mascre, Cast divisions and many others may refresh your memory?

A wise man once said "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."

 

[Malang]

Refer back to my previous posts and you would find how diverse and secular Indian society is.

Actually if you happen to travel along the Grand Trunk Road you would be surprised to see hundreds of Dargahs, Mazars, Mosques most of them cared for and run by non muslims...

I came across a fine example.. Hindus believe in different Gods and Godesses and all having different beliefs, practises, way of worshipping(Some Shaivites are dope smokers, some Kali worshippers eat meat, some Vishnu worshippers are pure vegetarian, some Hanuman worshippers are celibate.etc) and most of the Gods and Goddesses are either enemies or friends or have their tiffs(eg Shiva and Vishnu are known to fight on behalf of their worshippers, Shiva chopped of Ganesha's head, etc.etc.)

and this has actually helped Hindus accept other Hindus. and also other religions...

Though India is not utopian and people are not angels..... but an average Indian is decidedly less clued into religion or fanatical....
Discrimination is a legacy in part of British rule and with the rise in education, income and urbanisation slowly but surely certain medieval practices will become extinct...

Perhaps a glimpse of the Babri incident, Gujrat mascre, Cast divisions and many others may refresh your memory?

Babri Masjid incident was stupid.. and there is no conclusive evidence it was the exact spot where Ram was born.. and to take revenge for an act which occured centuries ago is stupid and reeks of cowardice..


In Gujarat Riots occured not a massacre .. a massacre for eg is that of
1. Nader Shah in Delhi which left the whole populace dead
2. Pathans and Sikhs under the British in 1857 which left thousands of North Indian Hindus and Muslims dead.
Quantitatively 700 Muslims dead, 300 Hindus dead is a hardly a massacre...


Caste/Class divisions unfortunately are a part of Subcontinent.. and in urban areas caste/class divisions are not very visible.. the rise of caste based parties and reservation has led to a sudden revival of castes and it is surprising to see upper castes paying bribes to get SC/ST/OBC certificates...

A wise man once said "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."

Ah what an enlightening illumination..