Part II: Army’s delayed orders halts T-90 tank

[5ever]

^ Do you have any proof that it's not? Buddy.

 

[IND151]

I wish your countrymen accept tht... instead of ranting the t-90 is superior to anything we have in our arsenal...

may be your T 80 UD is superior to T 90s

what about 300+ T 90 M we directly imported?

they haven't suffered No ToT saga so they are surely superior to your T 80s

 

[Omega007]

^ Do you have any proof that it's not? Buddy.

Yep,but I would rather call them 'logics' than proofs.
1.One of the most danzerous design flaw of T 90A/S/M is their Carousel autoloaders.Why??Lets see-
a.the Carousel can't hold modern longrod FSAPDS rounds.
b.very much maintainance intencive and prone to jamming.
c.most danzerous one-the Carousel stores all the ammo right in the crew compartment without any 'blow out panels'.Now one hit on the unarmoured forward hull roof and the round will straight strike the autoloader which will definately result in a Catastrophic kill-the turret will come out like a jack in the box.That's why now Russians and Ukrainins have eliminated the carousel in their newes tanks aka T 90AM and T 84 OplotMs in favour of a separated ammo magazine in the turret bustle.
The Pakistani T 80UDs use the same turret of T 84 OplotM.Now you yourself decide which one is safer-T 90S or T 80UD.
2.Ammo:newest Russian FSAPDS round is their 3BM42M Lecalo which according to both Vasily Fofanov and Andrei can penetrate 650mm RHA at 2000 meter at 90 degree hit angel.
On the other hand,the Ukrainian Vitiaz FSAPDS round is claimed to be capable of defeating 780mm RHA at 2000 meter.Now I know it's a new round and is probably not in use by PA but who can gurantee that PA won't induct them in future.
3.The commander's sight on T 90S is fixed and can only cover 150 degree.
Where as the sight on the T 80UD is a rotary system enabling 360 degree field of view giving the T 80UD true hunter-killer capability.
4.The T 90S is equipped with 1000 hp engine where as T 80UD has 1200 hp one giving the later greater power to weight ratio and cross country mobility.
5.The T 80UDs have Varta passive defence system where as T 90S presently has none though they are poised to be retrofitted with LEDS 150 APS.
6.T 80UDs have got BMS which is presently absent in T 90S.
There are many more but these are the main superiorities of T 80UD over our T 90S.
Only advantage the T 90S has probably its composite armor as it was widely acknowledged that Ukrainians had to import the Ceramic tiles which are main component of composite armor from Russia and in the late 90's Russia stoped to deliver them.It's uncertain whether the Ukrainians managed to develop on their own or not.
By the way,if you want to know more about MBTs,read some books.I have many books written by veteran tankers and tank designers with various brochures.

 

[5ever]

^ Separate your bullet points, provide a pro-cons list, not a wall of text and then maybe I will start reading it.

 

[Secur]

^^ Why bother because even then you will be saying the same thing ?

 

[Omega007]

^ Separate your bullet points, provide a pro-cons list, not a wall of text and then maybe I will start reading it.

Currently I do not have access to my desktop as I'm in my hostel and using a crappy cellphone.So for now,you have to remain satisfied with that.

 

[Tshering22]

that's great .......then why are we choosing more t-90's over arjun????

Because generals and ministers want their fat commissions to be sent to Swiss accounts.

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

I seriously pray that they scrap T-90s and make an all Arjun MK2 arsenal now onwards.

 

[Varunastra]

Because generals and ministers want their fat commissions to be sent to Swiss accounts.

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

I seriously pray that they scrap T-90s and make an all Arjun MK2 arsenal now onwards.

BUT T-90'S ARE ALSO CHEAPER RIGHT????.......I DID SOME RESEARCH!!!!

 

[sathya]

^^

Arjun mk2 has around 20 tonnes goodies extra compared to t 90s ,
also not mass produced compared to T90 s

so it should be expensive without doubt
i just hope drdo & HVF use this opportunity , and accelerate their business

btw is there any tank, that India can get, to do comparison trial with Arjun mk2 ?

 

[faithfulguy]

Arjun is just way too expensive for its capability. Even after when Russia refused to provide components for Indian build T-90, India still has not turned completely toward Arjun, it shows India army's trust toward India's domestically produced Arjun.

 

[Omega007]

BUT T-90'S ARE ALSO CHEAPER RIGHT????.......I DID SOME RESEARCH!!!!

Not necessaryly.The recent news suggests that license produced T 90S at HVF are costing over 18 cr per tank where as each Arjun MkI costs little over 16 cr Rs.So yourself decide which one is cheaper and which one is costlier.
By the way,the T 90S is equipped with an inferior armor module,far weaker gun,weaker ammo and an unreliable FCS yet T 90S costs more.

 

[Omega007]

Arjun is just way too expensive for its capability. Even after when Russia refused to provide components for Indian build T-90, India still has not turned completely toward Arjun, it shows India army's trust toward India's domestically produced Arjun.

Arjun MkI costs lower than T 90S Mr Armchair general. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Mani2020]

^ Mate nothing in the Pakistani arsenal is superior to the T-90.

As your country man above said that T-80UD from Ukraine is superior to T-90S...so its my humble duty to inform you that Pakistan army has 320 T-80UDs ...I will not jump onto Al-Khalid, Al-Khalid1 and Al-Khalid 2 because then your patriotism might overcome your rationality and resulting into ruining this thread which i don't want..so for now you just try to digest T-80UDs ...and i should stop here to save this thread

 

[Jon Snow]

Not necessaryly.The recent news suggests that license produced T 90S at HVF are costing over 18 cr per tank where as each Arjun MkI costs little over 16 cr Rs.So yourself decide which one is cheaper and which one is costlier.
By the way,the T 90S is equipped with an inferior armor module,far weaker gun,weaker ammo and an unreliable FCS yet T 90S costs more.

The indian made t 90 costs more than mk1 arjun. The t 90S supplied to us by Russians directly are much cheaper.
This is because the Indian made T 90 are the T 90M which has composite armor( same as arjun ), kaktus ERA ( compared to arjun mk1 which has no ERA this is a huge bonus, compared to mk2 I guess kaktus ERA is still as good if not better than ERA of mk2), LEDS 150 APS ( compared to ironfist of mk2, cant say which is better), better cooling system in T 90M( this should solve all problems of over heating which occured in the initial T 90S ) and newer engine.
The fcs of the T 90S is world class - the problems only occured due to overheating - and this has been rectified. The gun of the T 90M is a 125mm smoothbore- compared with the 120mm rifled gun of the arjun's it is slightly inferior because the rifled gun increases accuracy and range but the rifled gun also requires more maintenance ( because the grooves get easily chipped) and has to be changed far more regularly as compared to a smoothbore. As for the ammo - both use ammo made by the ordnance factory - so quality is same for both.
But the biggest advantage of the T 90 is that it is battle tested - in the south ossetia war. There are reports that the T 90 suffered numerous direct hits and still remained in combat( one recieved 7 direct RPG hits and continued to fight)- and this is with the inferior Russian RHA and the older k-5 ERA. Now on paper the pakistanis or the chinese MIGHT have tanks that could beat the T 90 but any army would rather go for a battle proven tank.

Now the arjun ml2 will almost definitely outclass the T 90M( like the mk1 does the T 90S( not M)) but to say that we must cancel the orders of T 90 in favor of arjun mk2 is still wrong - T 90M production should continue till all 1650 tanks and the arjun mk2 should replace at least half of the current T 72 ( around 1000 tanks) while we upgrade the other half to T 72 ajeya standard.

 

[Omega007]

The indian made t 90 costs more than mk1 arjun. The t 90S supplied to us by Russians directly are much cheaper.
This is because the Indian made T 90 are the T 90M which has composite armor( same as arjun ), kaktus ERA ( compared to arjun mk1 which has no ERA this is a huge bonus, compared to mk2 I guess kaktus ERA is still as good if not better than ERA of mk2), LEDS 150 APS ( compared to ironfist of mk2, cant say which is better), better cooling system in T 90M( this should solve all problems of over heating which occured in the initial T 90S ) and newer engine.
The fcs of the T 90S is world class - the problems only occured due to overheating - and this has been rectified. The gun of the T 90M is a 125mm smoothbore- compared with the 120mm rifled gun of the arjun's it is slightly inferior because the rifled gun increases accuracy and range but the rifled gun also requires more maintenance ( because the grooves get easily chipped) and has to be changed far more regularly as compared to a smoothbore. As for the ammo - both use ammo made by the ordnance factory - so quality is same for both.
But the biggest advantage of the T 90 is that it is battle tested - in the south ossetia war. There are reports that the T 90 suffered numerous direct hits and still remained in combat( one recieved 7 direct RPG hits and continued to fight)- and this is with the inferior Russian RHA and the older k-5 ERA. Now on paper the pakistanis or the chinese MIGHT have tanks that could beat the T 90 but any army would rather go for a battle proven tank.

Now the arjun ml2 will almost definitely outclass the T 90M( like the mk1 does the T 90S( not M)) but to say that we must cancel the orders of T 90 in favor of arjun mk2 is still wrong - T 90M production should continue till all 1650 tanks and the arjun mk2 should replace at least half of the current T 72 ( around 1000 tanks) while we upgrade the other half to T 72 ajeya standard.

It would have been better if you had taken the troubble to read the article.HVF is still manufacturing T 90S not M.There is no proof that Relikt/Kaktus has been imported and the license manufactured T 90S are still using export standerd Kontact 5.Besides,there is no mention of Leds 150 APS,the 18.2 cr Rs price tag is without APS-get that in your mind.